Talk:B. J. Habibie

earlier comments
More info?

I found some more information here, but I don't know whether it's suitable to be included in Wikipedia.

http://www.megastories.com/seasia/indonesi/candidat/habibie.htm


 * Should this page be moved? I never remember him being called anything except "B.J. Habibie", but that's just the Western media. Everyking 16:08, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * It is correct that prior to his term as president, everybody in Indonesia referred to him as "B.J. Habibie", or even as "Habibie". The newer "Jusuf Habibie" only started use during his presidency.  I vote to move it to "B.J. Habibie" or even just "Habibie", since they are by far more recognizable.  I'm not sure if "B.J." is an honorary title or not, though. Julius.kusuma 21:24, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I've put the article Habiebie in Votes for deletion/Habiebie on the basis that the title of the article is incorrect. --*drew 14:00, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * *drew, just a quick note that the correct spelling is "Habibie", not "Habiebie", although in West Java that is the name that people say in jest (bie means soft in Sundanese). --Julius.kusuma 18:26, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I understand that the spelling of his name is incorrect, that's why I decide to list it in vfd. By the way, that article is not created by me. --*drew 00:19, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Article name
If he is "more commonly known as B. J. Habibie", then why isn't that the page name? See WP:NAME. – Scartol  •  Tok  20:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Copy edits
I went through the page and the grammar and sentence structure are ok. So i removed the copy edit request.P0PP4B34R732 (talk) 21:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Uhhh... what? This article employs abhorrent grammar, that tag should not have been removed. The fact that his full name was repeated throughout the article over 30 times and the non-neutral wording were grounds to RETAIN the tag. —  James ( Talk •  Contribs ) • 10:00pm • 12:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the grammar is pretty bad here. I've been working on it but there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. Maybe I'll come back to it later and do some more. DaffyBridge (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a Habibie scholar but I ended up on the page by chance and saw the request for copy editing. I've restructured a lot of the syntax to hopefully make the page more readable. There's still more to do in the final sections. Rob. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.111.68 (talk) 05:21, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:18, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie → B. J. Habibie – In accordance with WP:COMMMONNAME, I propose the article be moved to B. J. Habibie, as mainstream media and other reputable sources refer to him as B. J. Habibie more than they do his full name. —  James ( Talk •  Contribs ) • 8:40pm • 10:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Note a similar previous discussion at Talk:F. W. de Klerk. —  AjaxSmack   00:39, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Support. Agree with the nom, B. J. Habibie is definitely the most common name. A google news search gives 9,570 results for "B. J. Habibie", compared to 595 for "Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie". Jenks24 (talk) 02:20, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support -- His full name is nowhere near common enough to be the title of the article. Here in Indonesia, most say Habibie (but B. J. is sometimes inserted). Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:06, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support - seems fine. Let's just do it. --Merbabu (talk) 07:08, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Guten Tag Herr Habibie, heute las ich den großen Artikel über sie im Hamburger Abendblatt. Der Zufall war es, dass ich ihren Fahrer Peter Bertling gut kannte. Er war ein Neffe meiner Tanten Charlotte und Helene Bertling aus Henst.-Ulzburg. Sie hatten mal Peter und seine Frau Bruno nach Indonesien eingeladen. Sie war ganz begeistert von der schönen Reise. Nun wollte ich den Artikel an Bertlings senden und erfuhr, das Peter sein Sohn im letzten Jahr mit 60 Jahren verstorben ist. Peter ist auch schon lange gestorben, Sicher erinnern Sie sich noch an den großen stattlichen Mann. Seine Witwe Brunhilde lebt in Essen. Ich werde den Artikel ihr zukommen lassen. Ich wünsche ihnen weiterhin alles Gute. Sie haben ja viel für ihr Land getan.

Mit frdl. gruß

Franz Tamm 24568 Oersdorf bei Kaltenkirchen

FTamm@gmx.de — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.246.51.48 (talk) 11:52, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Guten Tag Herr Habibie, heute las ich den großen Artikel über sie im Hamburger Abendblatt. Der Zufall war es, dass ich ihren Fahrer Peter Bertling gut kannte. Er war ein Neffe meiner Tanten Charlotte und Helene Bertling aus Henst.-Ulzburg. Sie hatten mal Peter und seine Frau Bruno nach Indonesien eingeladen. Sie war ganz begeistert von der schönen Reise. Nun wollte ich den Artikel an Bertlings senden und erfuhr, das Peter sein Sohn im letzten Jahr mit 60 Jahren verstorben ist. Peter ist auch schon lange gestorben, Sicher erinnern Sie sich noch an den großen stattlichen Mann. Seine Witwe Brunhilde lebt in Essen. Ich werde den Artikel ihr zukommen lassen. Ich wünsche ihnen weiterhin alles Gute. Sie haben ja viel für ihr Land getan.

Mit frdl. gruß

Franz Tamm 24568 Oersdorf bei Kaltenkirchen

FTamm@gmx.de — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.246.51.48 (talk) 11:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

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Habibies part in East Timor referendum
I added:

"On 30 August 1999, the referendum was held and the East Timorese people overwhelmingly chose Independence in mostly free and fair elections. The Indonesian military started a campaign against the East Timorese population, which caused the 1999 East Timorese crisis where up to 2000 people were killed. Habibie had refused before to allow an United Nations peace keeping force. On 27 April 1999 Habibie threatened in a talk with Howard, with the immediate task of East Timor and the rejection of the referendum, which would lead to a civil war between integrationists and separatists, if a peacekeeping force is send. After the wave of violence after the referendum, Habibie accepted under international pressure the dispatch of INTERFET and the handing over of the territory to the United Nations Transitional Administration in East Timor (UNTAET)."

Source is: John Braithwaite, Hilary Charlesworth, Adérito Soares: Networked Governance of Freedom and Tyranny: Peace in Timor-Leste, p. 98 & 99, ANU press 2012.

You reverted this with the comment "The reference is not authoritative. It is merely one point of view. There are many others. The literature is extensive. It is not right to quote just one point of view."

Please explain, why do you believe, the reference is not authoritative and add a reference for your opinion! If there is another point of view, both couild be presented in the article. A deletion is not helpful for the reader. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 06:34, 12 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I guess, the citation of Habibie during his talks with Howard in Bali on 27 April 1999 is documented. I can not see any place for interpretation here. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 06:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC)


 * This is not a useful conversation. The literature, and the references, on all of these events is very, very extensive.  It is not appropriate to quote a few selective references, here and there, as suits your view.  This is not careful scholarship, and it does not meet the standards that Wikipedia sets.  Please stop trying to promote one particular view of events. Pmccawley (talk) 07:01, 12 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Sorry to say, conversation IS a Wikipedia principle and trying to depreciate this or valid references is not a possibility for discussions here. I have invited you, to present your position by giving references and by helping showing the ambivalent opinions about Mr. Habibie. It is strange, you are not accepting publications of ANU press, while being an honorary associate professor at the Australian National University. If you are thinking, the source is too selective, please add further informations with references. I am respecting Mr. Habibies merits for Indonesian democracy and for the decision to run the referendum in Timor-Leste. Two weeks ago, a bridge and a park was named after Mr. Habibie in Dili, thanking him for his courage. But there are some things, which were not so brightful and this has to be mention as well. There is no black and white in this story.


 * And please, start using arguments and not degradations of contributions with other opinions. We are both not school boys and not beginners in Wikipedia. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 12:20, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

As someone reasonably familiar with the extensive literature on the Timor-Leste referendum, I'll simply say that the existing text contains a factual error: "However, the retreat of Indonesian troops from East Timor created the 1999 East Timorese crisis where many were killed." As Indonesian troops withdrew in favour of the Australian-led force, the crisis ended and killings ceased. The most careful research is probably Robinson, If You Leave Us Here We Will Die. Even if you don't like that source, it's an unsourced and inaccurate error in chronology to say that TNI "retreat" led to the crisis. At best, it is "merely one point of view" and I agree that "it is not right to quote just one point of view." Dwebsterbu (talk) 18:13, 12 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Without wishing to prolong this discussion, I'd simply like to note that it is quite difficult to summarise the complex (and rapidly-changing) events in Timor-Leste at that time in a concise and impartial way. Emotions understandably ran high (and still run high today) and it's often hard to pin down the exact facts.  Not surprisingly, different parties draw on different facts to construct their own different narratives about the events.  The result is that if we are trying to summarise events in Wikipedia, we need to be very careful to try to be as impartial and fact-oriented as possible. Pmccawley (talk) 01:44, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. I have therefore moved factual errors such as calling UNTAET a UN peacekeeping force, calling a referendum an "election," the value judgment that it was "mostly free and fair," and the unsourced claim that Indonesian "retreat" caused the crisis - obviously factually false since deaths started before TNI departed.Dwebsterbu (talk) 02:00, 13 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I agree with this approach.  The trouble is that feelings are so divided that even small errors can become sources of sharp division.  A "referendum", for example, is very clearly not an "election."  We need to stick very firmly to the facts -- slim though they may be at times. Once we move away from the agreed facts, we move into murky territory. Pmccawley (talk) 02:15, 13 September 2019 (UTC)


 * So, let us talk, what are the facts, you are seeing. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 03:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)


 * In response to J. Patrick Fischer -- Thank you for your good response here. I'm glad to say that I think that we now -- with the help of you, and Dwebsterbu, and others -- have made some useful progress in sorting some of this out. Part of the trouble with further discussion on this particular Wiki page is that, really, are many issues to be sorted out.  It's probably best to carry on any extended discussion in academic and other articles.  We also need to pay proper attention to the Indonesian literature on all of this, much of which is in Indonesian, as well as in English and other languages.  Pmccawley (talk) 03:32, 14 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Great. In the latest edit, I have removed another error (UNTAET did not arrive until October so could not have arrived in September: Interfet was meant, and in this case Patrick's edit was correct in changing UNTAET to Interfet); changed the chronology so that Habibie's acceptance of Interfet (12 Sept.) now comes after Wiranto's alleged coup attempt (10 Sept.) instead of before; and added context - call for referendum came from Timorese before it came from Howard; passive "were killed" to active "militias killed" etc. I think this improves factual basis. Dwebsterbu (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Obvious vandalism in the lead section
The terms "he got cancer and died as he succeeded Suharto" and "he is poor and homeless" were added to the lead section by an IP editor minutes before the article was actually semi-protected due to persistent vandalism. This content has not yet been removed. It constitutes obvious vandalism, therefore it should not remain in the article. Best regards, --85.216.245.67 (talk) 07:10, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, it was removed before I even managed to finish writing this content. Thanks. --85.216.245.67 (talk) 07:11, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

ICMI
Unable to add at the moment but there should be a reference to ICMI. I'd suggest something like:

While serving in cabinet, Habibie was also elected as the first Chair of the Indonesian Association of Muslim Intellectuals (ICMI) in 1990. This modernist Muslim organization provided him with a political base, linked to but independent of the Suharto administration.[1] Hefner, Robert W. (2000). Civil Islam: Muslims and Democratization in Indonesia. Princeton NJ: Princeton University Press. pp. 128–38. ISBN 0691050465.Dwebsterbu (talk) 22:25, 12 September 2019 (UTC)