Talk:Baltic Sea/Archive 1

Mare Balticum or Mare Suebicum?
Many sources, including Wikipedia's article on Balts, cite Mare Suebicum rather than Mare Balticum as the Latin name for Baltic Sea. Which one is correct? BTW, it would also be appropriate to link to the page on Balts when explaining the ethymology. --193.2.69.128 11:24, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC) ---
 * Mare Suebicum was in use about 2-thousand years ago. The name Mare Balticum began to be used a thousand years later. An Observer 30.6.2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.68.129 (talk) 17:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Other Historical Name Mare Germanicum
Besides having been recorded as Mare Balthicum, it was earlier recorded as Mare Germanicum by Jordanes. Thousand years later a map by Hartmann Schedel still shows Mare Germanicum Moved it here, because of repeated removal by Balcer and Space Cadet – MG 2/17/2006


 * I've also seen Mare Goticum on the 16th century Carta marina   by Olaus Magnus. -- Matthead  Discuß   14:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

-
 * The Carta Marina names parts of the Sea with local names, such as Mare Goticum in the area of Gothia, Danzig, Prussia and island of Gotland. Further east it states Mare Livonicum around Livonia and island of Oesel, Osilia and futher east yet its named Mare Finonicum around Finland An Observer 30.6.2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.68.129 (talk) 18:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Gandvik or Grandvik
Someone claims that Grand meant "great" in Old Norse. I can find no confirmation about this Grandvik is most likely a variation of Gandvik which referred to either the Gulf of Bothia or the White Sea.--Wiglaf 12:13, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We better not trust single uncorrobated sources too much. :-) The whole matter seems rather controversial, and not very encyclopedic. /Tuomas 12:45, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Alright :-)--Wiglaf 12:54, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I admit that I made a leap too far by claiming that "Grand" would be Old Norse, which is of course, ahem, a bogus claim. Sorry, Wiglaf. (I do have a friend who might know more, I'll ask him.) Jhi 17:01, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While I'm waiting for my friend (a professor in Old Norse) to comment, I looked up the Latin original of Saxo and it says: ''Ceterum Oceani superior flexus Daniam intersecando praetermeans australem Gothiae plagam sinu laxiore contingit; inferior vero meatus eius Norvagiaeque latus septentrionale praeteriens ad ortum versus magno cum latitudinis incremento solido limitatur anfractu. Quem maris terminum gentis nostrae veteres *Gandwicum* dixere. Igitur inter "Gandwicum" et meridianum pelagus breve continentis spatium patet, maria utrimquesecus allapsa prospectans; quod nisi rerum natura limitis loco congressis paene fluctibus obiecisset, Suetiam Norvagiamque conflui fretorum aestus in insulam redegissent.'' (http://www.kb.dk/elib/lit/dan/saxo/lat/or.dsr/0/2/index.htm)  Sooo ... it would seem "Gandvik" would indeed be a good "scandinavization" for "Gandwicum". Now, I don't see any serpents in there, but that was only the first hit I could find (and the online edition is painful to search, page by page.) So I'm fine with "Gandvik".

The "Grandvik", then, might come from the most quoted English translation: ''Moreover, the upper bend of the ocean, which cuts through Denmark and flows past it, washes the southern side of Gothland with a gulf of some width; while its lower channel, passing the northern sides of Gothland and Norway, turns eastwards, widening much in breadth, and is bounded by a curve of firm land. This limit of the sea the elders of our race called *Grandvik*. Thus between *Grandvik* and the Southern Sea there lies a short span of mainland, facing the seas that wash on either shore; and but that nature had set this as a boundary where the billows almost meet, the tides of the two seas would have flowed into one, and cut off Sweden and Norway into an island.'' (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/preface.html)

So is the "Grandvik" just a typo of Oliver Elton (http://sunsite3.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/) (or an editor error)? Jhi 18:12, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Okay, got a reply. "Gandvik" is a well-known in Norse "legendary geography", and usually considered to be the White Sea (not the Baltic Sea, but Saxo might have been cutting corners, or misremembering, and this is legendary geography anyway). The etymology being /gandr/ "evil enchantment, in particular the witch's or wizard's staff". (No serpents, though.) (Interestingly, if you look at the map of the White Sea, there's a small town, "Kantalahti", "-lahti" being Finnish for "-vik" - in modern maps the name might be Russified to "Kandalaksha" or something like that.) So "Gandvik" is perfectly fine with me, but since I guess "Grandvik" can be found especially in English texts, it also should be mentioned (origin unknown). (A Norse root /granda/ apparently also exists, but that means "to harm", so it's probably not relevant here.) Jhi 18:33, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should rename it "Gandvik" in the text, if "Grandvik" seems to be a typo. I remember that there was a different name for the Baltic Sea in Old Norse. I'll see if I can find it, or perhaps your friend knows.--Wiglaf 11:00, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'll rename it as "Gandvik", but since so many online references talk of "Grandvik", I'll mention that one too as a possible typo.

Origins of the name
I have replaced the speculations on the origins of the name Baltic sea. Last time I removed the speculations Jhi reverted it, so I hope he's happy now.--Wiglaf 13:22, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I am happier now. Your earlier edit summary for removing the *bhel rerefence only said "Nope, it is only a very direct connection." which left me rather confused as to your intent, and I felt leaving the *bhel in was better than removing it completely. Jhi 16:46, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My linguist friend thinks the current consensus still is the *bhel IE root or "shining white", so I think it should be reinstated as the primary explanation for the origin of the name. The later references and the Belt straits can of course still be mentioned. Jhi 18:37, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't understand which path *bhel would have taken to become part of "Baltic" (unless it was part of Xenophon's Baltia or Belt). I have checked the root at the American Heritage Dictionary, but there is no mention of the Baltic Sea . I think the direct connection between Baltic and *Bhel seems very unlikely. Could your friend provide a language that called the Baltic Sea by a name based on this root before Adam of Bremen? If he can provide such a source, I will agree with you.--Wiglaf 15:44, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I will ask him. In the meanwhile I can find references to a late Roman historian Jordanes (Iordan), of Goth origin, that in the 6th century wrote the history of Goths. The history itself was probably at least partly somewhat fanciful but apparently Baltic Sea was mentioned a lot (since the origin was claimed to be Gotland.) But so far I haven't been able to locate the original text to find out what did Jordanes really call the sea. Another angle is that "white" is still in modern Lithuanian "baltas" (and Lithuania is widely recognized as the most "well-preserved" of all IE languages). (In Latvian, "white" is "balts".) Jhi 20:57, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Okay, it seems that the Jordanes is drying up... his "Getani" calls the Baltic Sea "Oceani Germanici" and "Balts" it calls "Aesti". (http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm) So I think we would need someone Lithuanian to clear this one up... or lacking that, a Lithuanian etymological dictionary. But that doesn't necessarily give solid written proof since Lithuanian became a written language only in the 16th century.

My world doesn't come crumbling down if the *bhel explanation is not convincing everybody... BUT since a group of languages living by the sea still call the sea "a balt sea" AND "balt-" in those languages still means "white" AND the IE scholars have come to the conclusion that one of the *bhel IE roots meant "white", I would call the "*bhel theory" more than speculative. Jhi 21:44, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * According to Meriam Webster Online the origins are Mediaeval Latin, i.e. sources like Adam of Bremen . Even though, the Baltic languages had such a word, the word "Baltic" seems to have been applied to the Baltic States during the Russian rule to distinguish them from the rest of the Empire. I believe you that the Baltic languages have such a word, but there is such a thing as remotivation, which means that if a word exists before a certain name is borrowed this first word will influence the form and the meaning of the borrowed name. Consequently, the modern Baltic names for the sea may very well mean "shining", but unless a "pre-Adam of Bremen form" can be attested in the Baltic languages, the naming constitutes most likely what is called folk etymology. --Wiglaf 10:44, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not contesting the ML references, and since I don't have any earlier attested ones, the current "speculative "bhel" is fine.

Map should be corrected
The map is obviously incorrect, as Finland is not part of Scandinavia, and Poland is not a Baltic State. --Ghirlandajo 09:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Geologically and historically Finland is Scandinavia or Fennoscandia. The major geological divide run through Baltic Sea, Gulf of Finland, Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega and to the White Sea. In comparison Gulf of Bothnia is only superficially dividing two land masses.


 * Finland is indeed not a part of Scandinavia, which is defined as the peninsula where Sweden and Norway are located. Finland is a part of Fennoscandia. --Vuo 13:51, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, in English the distinction is not so clear. Usage where Scandinavia includes Finland and even Iceland is widespread enough that it has made it into dictionaries, and it is also acknowledged on the wikipedia Scandinavia page.  Of course, the map could be changed in order to fight this shift in meaning, but that is of concern mostly to us Fennoscandians :) 84.239.128.9 14:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Ice
I added some information on the icing of Baltic Sea. The section might need some references for at least what comes to historical occurenses of freezing or not freezing that the text superficially mentions. However, I do not know very well how to make the links appear in Wikipedia.

Please do not delete the items, though – I could say I have quite good knowledge on this, even though I must admit I am not a professional.

Added Jan 6 2006 23:45 UTC – (Sorry, the automatical date signature is also something I quite am not aware of.)
 * You could add the latest edition of Swedish Navys Lärobok i sjömanskap as a reference. It has a chapter describing the hydrology of the Baltic sea, including icing. It should be added to this section that the Stockholm Archipelago and the Archipelago Sea freezes as well. 130.237.216.122 (talk) 09:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

East Sea ⇒ Sea of Japan redirection
It has been proposed that East Sea should redirect to the Sea of Japan page, instead of the current East Sea (disambiguation) page. As concensus will determine this, please discuss it here in Talk:Sea of Japan. Thank you.

Note: Disambiguation policy mandates that if there is risk of confusion, East Sea should redirect to a disambiguation page first. As some of you may know, East Sea has meant Baltic Sea in English for a very long time, as shown in this map.--Endroit 23:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Do we really need the Tourism Links section?
Do we need it? It seems a spamfest galore not worthy an encyclopedia. Why should we pomote some tourism organization? Friendly Neighbour 09:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. It seems "un-encyclopedic". Moreover, very few other Wikipedia articles about places have "Tourism Links" sections. --  Cul tu r al F r ee d om  2006-07-16 09:58 (UTC)

PROTECT THE BALTIC SEA WHILE IT'S NOT TOO LATE! =
A new large-scale project is threatening to bring irreversible consequences to the Baltic Sea. Gas companies intend to build a 1,200 km. gas pipeline by excavating and in some areas using explosives in the seabed. Possible consequences of the Nord Stream Gas Pipeline project cause a deep and legitimate concern. Here Sign The Petition 159.148.71.250 13:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

First picture
Should we maybe make the map that is currently the second picture the first picture? The first picture is a really small satellite picture of algea bloom. I think the second picture is better for a "first look" since the lead section also starts with the geographic postion of the baltic sea, which is better represented in the second picture. If someone disagrees please post, otherwise I will do it myself and find a cool place for the algae bloom picture :) MrZap (talk) 15:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I most certainly agree! Actually, I went to this page just to say that. As nobody has disagreed in 5 months, let's do it. Glaucidium (talk) 07:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Origin from Baltic languages?
Have You forgotten, 'balta' in both Latvian and Lithuanian means white. Could this be relevant? (User:T6nis) 12 March 2009
 * Also in Livonian the name is Vālda mer which means "white sea". Flying Saucer (talk) 05:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

History
Hello. Just visiting. The eleventh paragraph under HISTORY reads,,,

"In 1945, American troops sank a large number of captured ships, loaden with chemical weapons. Until now, the U.S. government refuses to disclose the exact coordinates of the wreck sites. Rotting bottles leak Lost and other substances, thus slowly poisoning a substantial part of the Baltic Sea."

Until now? And leaking "Lost"? Some help is needed. Thanks. Derekbd (talk) 01:38, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Names in other languages
Hi. What is the WP policy on listing place nams in other languages? I understand it makes sense to include the names in the languages of the neighbouring countries/ civilizations for obvious historical reasons. However, this article lists an immensely long list of names in languages that are of no bearing on the Baltic Sea. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 22:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Baltic sea has the most percentage of people with light eyes and light hair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hair-color-map_by_Peter_Frost.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Westernparadigm_blue_eye_color_map.jpg

can we not add it to the article?--Asdfg1244 (talk) 16:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem particularly important, or directly related to the sea - the people don't actually live in the water do they? Bazonka (talk) 18:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Largest body of brackish water
The first para of the section Geophysical data says:
 * Baltic Sea is a brackish inland sea, perhaps the largest body of brackish water in the world (other possibilities include the Black Sea, Hudson Bay and the Caspian Sea).

which couldn't be true if the competitor Black Sea is brackish: the mean depth of the Baltic Sea is 55 m, but the Black Sea have an average depth of perhaps something like 1000 m. I think the article speculates and mistakes area for "body" (mass). Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 07:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Not for Scoring Points - Baltic Fish Death Undone!
After WWF and various other "whistle blowers": But for "colleagial" exchange of information and some slight suspicions of something that can possibly be unturned:

Concerning the Baltic sea and fish death: can it be that, on par with (synthetic) rubber production, that an unknown gasoline derivative (Xylitin? or some) has caused massive "unfruitful"/hostile conditions for fish to grow/find food there so that ALL attempts in restoring the fish banks of the Baltic Sea will fail? Xylitol is also a questioned substance of a derivative (sugar) kind that I don't want to enter the discussion of! Good luck with investigations! Have a nice day! (Remember that polluters are dishonest and possibly hideous people and that GREAT CARE needs to be displayed in order to approach this!)

And for seriousness more, that I've taken the med. doctors of epidemiology/bacteriolology/hygiene for slight alcohol tendencies, whether on the black side or the alcoholism itself! Salicylic acids of antbacteria products! Good?

I do not yet say that this story will produce these or other successes, just that I note a possible investigative angle! Alright? (Don't expect me to "toss and turn" to answer you. I have scarce time on my hands and "a bit" to do.) -- LFOlsnes-Lea 13:54, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I guess I withdraw from the above, while leaving the suspicion "alive" for those who want to investigate possible scenarios. While certainly not "still water" in the extreme "brackish" water sense (hence the storms, given the surface area that the winds affect), there may very well be governing principles in nature that regulates the beings fit for fresh waters and salty waters, respectively. Thus, I think most may be looking into what can fit into this Baltic Sea in terms of sea life able to cope with the salinity and the weak currents that probably bring in very little oxygen and nutrition. So what about the Dartmouth "Vade" play in the World and the Shakespeare creatures introduction to USA? I (deeply) respect the research restraints on the Baltic Sea and I have no need for extremities. That we consider this in peace and "enjoy that pace of research" connected to the whole area! Cheers! --95.34.121.21 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Informed suspicions:
 * Suspected insertion of 25 tons of "unknown/poisoning chemical substances". Time: 1985, appx.
 * (Not to say that only 25 tons are enough "to do it", but that the polluters have been awful "to earn that mark".)
 * Suspect of pollution: Denmark. (USA is cleared, I think.)
 * Result: Fish death, other bio-deaths, vast brackish water bodies, dead Baltic Seas.
 * Pollution chemical: Kerosene, a hydrocarbons product, other name is paraffin, used also for "oil-lamps".
 * Suggested confirmation price tag: 20 Mn SEK for mainly a basin, naturalised and filled with sea water by direct filling system.
 * Now what? Yes, also check pollution records for the Baltic Sea nations. Other? Get the confirmation started. Cheers!
 * It's also worth noting that the track record for catches of fish of the fish stocks themselves, historically, will make a fine contribution to identifying "time and place" for this brackish sea to occur. 109.189.211.249 (talk) 23:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Note on other Wikipedia page: |Wikipedia page of Clupeiformes (Herring-like fish) and other.
 * Another: Herring (in the Baltic Sea also). 37.200.45.6 (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Not that I want to be rude, but some people may need some spoon-feeding. Here is: I only need to cite the importance of this article on grounds of intelligence and that we now read USA loud and clear ::::under the new information of who they are and represent. That is the European side of defence against US American scorn about European character to address issues of science, yes in a sense, this is the ::::message from a kind of new Europe that we also are "up and running"! Also, we still celebrate the fact of being without CIA. 95.34.141.208 (talk) 02:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I have an objection to these "added bodies of fresh water", that despite these fresh water bodies that are now to greater degrees also consumed as drinking water (and other, industry?), also water from the times when people have been far fewer and rain and melted ice have been adding more according also, to the climate changes of more (unusually) warm weather. This is a corollary point in investigating polluting sources. Thanks. 62.16.242.218 (talk) 17:24, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"Salinity permeation principle"
A " principle of salinity permeation" is unfamiliar to the average Wikipedia reader and needs some explanatory phrases.--Wetman (talk) 18:19, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Tip. Some (Norwegian) biology books for 1st year Sr. High School has it dealt with, and I guess most "Baltic Sea Countries" has the principle noted too. Have a nice day. 62.16.242.218 (talk) 17:19, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Just check out Osmotic power, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmotic_power ! Hey! 62.16.242.218 (talk) 17:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Attempt to improve images
I made an attempt to make the quality of the images in the article higher, mainly by rearranging their order so they fit better with respective section, added 1 and changed 1, and added more informative captions. My edit was undone (edit 562994722) by Horst-schlaemma who asked for a discussion about these changes first. So I'm wondering, are there any objections to any of what I did, or any other ideas on how the images could be improved to better fit the subject? Thanks. Yakikaki (talk) 12:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi! I suggest that some of the images should be rearranged gallery-like. It's not that I'd oppose to your whole edit, still it should be discussed here if such a major change is under way. Let's see what main editors have to say here. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi again! Hm, there seems to be a limited interest in the issue or what do you say? Still, I think a few changes should be warranted. I think the pictures are quite good, many of them, but some should be placed in other sections (sections which they do illustrate) and I think the captions could be improved. For example, the picture of the Åland islands could be used an example of a rather typical form of archipelago which can be found in large parts of the Baltic Sea, both in Finland and Sweden. And I agree that some pictures could also be placed in a gallery. The question is what changes to do, concretely... I really tried to fix things a bit with my earlier edit, and as far as I can see it made the article more in line with MOS:IMAGES. I'm still unsure why it was reverted (but not upset, I'm sure there are good reasons). Please let's discuss how it could become even more in line with MOS:IMAGES. Cheers! Yakikaki (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Geologic history
According to the introductory section of Eric Christiansen's The Northern Crusades (Penguin, 2nd ed., 1998), what is now the Baltic was in prehistoric times a large freshwater lake, which only gradually (and thinly) became infiltrated with ocean water from the North Sea and the Atlantic. Christiansen dwells on this geological anomaly to help explain how the peculiar "brackish" character of the Baltic, being fed by many rivers and with few (two) narrow outlets to the North Sea, conditioned human development along its shores. Someone knowledgeable about geologic and marine history should add something of this to the history section. Sca (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

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Romanian language
Hello. "baltă” in Romanian is ”marsh, swamp, pool, moor”, all related to bodies of water, and, as it is with words, they translate into other languages in different meanings and extent. IMHO, the name The Baltic Sea, is ”The Watery Place” or something like that. Wikitor


 * The most straightforward explanation for Romanian baltă, Albanian baltë and Greek βάλτος, which all mean "mud, swamp", is that they are early borrowings from Slavic. The Proto-Slavic word for swamp is usually reconstructed as *bolto, but evidence from attested names and loanwords from or into Slavic (including in Southeastern Europe, where Slavs were present in the 6th century and settled down from 612 on) suggest that the Proto-Slavic phoneme conventionally written as *o was still pronounced more [a]-like until the beginning of the 9th century (compare Slavic liquid metathesis and pleophony), so the word should have sounded more like balta. So the option you propose is essentially contained in the Slavic proposal, which is already mentioned in the article. Given that Romanian was never spoken anywhere near the Baltic Sea, while Slavic certainly was spoken at the southern coast of the Baltic by the 11th century and earlier, Romanian is exceedingly unlikely to have been directly involved. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=+129&root=config
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Width of a second map
It should be possible to place a second map in the bottom of ths inforbox or below the infobox (not only of this arctcle) in the same width. Using "upright=1.…" this is not possible.--Ulamm (talk) 16:44, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Demographics
The demographics section says that 15 million people live within 10 km of the coast, but then goes on to say that 90% of the 22 million people living in cities > 250,000 live within 10 km of the coast, which would give 19.8 million people in that area. Anyone know which number is more accurate? Sort of pedantic, but it looks pretty silly for the article to apparently contradict itself within a couple lines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.237.93.228 (talk) 22:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thousands separator
Since 2003, the use of spaces as separators (for example: 20 000 and 1 000 000 for "twenty thousand" and "one million") has been officially endorsed by SI/ISO 31-0 standard, as well as by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures and the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC), the American Medical Association's widely followed AMA Manual of Style, and the Metrication Board, among others ... May somebody more sober than I (at this moment) fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.64.113.107 (talk) 12:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)