Talk:Bareket Observatory

Recent revert
I recently reverted an edit which used even more peacock terms about the observatory and the family running it. Someone should rewrite it to have a non-advertizing style ASAP. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Notability
I added 4 different sources to the information in the article. What exactly is missing that you keep adding that template? Chagai (talk) 12:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, that's just the sort of independent sourcing we would need. I'll take a look at them. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm.... One's in Hebrew, so of limited use for English-language wikipedia. The others aren't the most detailed source I've ever seen. On the whole though, unless there's some other problem that someone can point out, I'm now less concerned as to notability here. Whether this place is a mere "telescope shop" as some have described it, there does seem to be a public educational outreach programme associated with it, and that would suggest notability. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The sources have relation to the Bareket family (read carefully), especially the one in Hebrew. Besides, if I understand correctly (and Andy can correct me if I'm wrong), the local policies here requires inline citations from third party sources. BTW, the website has a very low alexa rating in Israel. Broccoli (talk) 12:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * IMHO, Hebrew sources are simply not en:WP:RS because they're inaccessible to editors on :en:WP. I can't WP:V something I just can't read. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus, here is google search without the site of the observatory. Also, there are zero google hits in nrg, 12 in ynet, and zero in Haaretz, which are the websites of the 3 large newspapers of Israel. Broccoli (talk) 13:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't much care who's writing, so long as we can have some sufficient faith in its core truth. We're looking for sources here, not content - if another site's write-up of this organisation is overly flattering, that's their problem, not ours. I agree, the tone of some of those is far from good journalism, but I don't see that they're so biased as to describe activities that simply aren't happening.


 * What does happen here? Is there some commercial "telescope shop" that is doing community outreach to a notable degree? (i.e. regular, open, worthwhile)
 * Can we source this, to some level that indicates basic truthiness (even with unwarranted flattery in those sources) ?
 * Can anyone else source something that indicates they aren't doing this?

"Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" also has the implication that non-exceptional claims do not require quite the same burden of proof. Whilst we're not here as free advertising, the claim here isn't outlandish. If a commercial shop is putting effort into making its facilities available to a local community for altruistic educational purposes, then I'm not fool enough to believe that this makes them into the Israeli space program, but I do believe that sort of effort is noteworthy and to be recognised. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In some cases you are correct, but the claims aren't supported by the lack of coverage from the general newspapers in Israel, and the poor Alexa results isn't helpful. I don't say that the website should have a ranking like that of Yahoo, but since the unique thing in this observatory is the activity through the internet, I remain even more doubtful. Broccoli (talk) 13:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What alexa rank has to do with the existance of the observatory I fell to understand. Only three observatories in Israel are listed on the Minor Planet Center. One of them is Barket with code B35. Now, I hope Broccoli is not going to search nrg or yNet, and claim he can't find it there, or it has low Alexa rank, and therfore, MPC site is not an indication... This place is among the top 3 in Israel, by research, by education programs and by equipment. The fact some people don't like it is making some money in the process is completely irrelevant. It is also one of the only two or three that is doing Scientific research in Israel. Chagai (talk) 16:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As I recall, they have the number but they are not members. I explained why alexa is rellevant. It seems that the public in Israel isn't really interested in this observatory. All the other claims must have sources. BTW, the Givatayim Observatory isn't very big, but the Hebrew article establish clear notability, and is very famous in Israel (general google hits). Broccoli (talk) 16:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "the public in Israel isn't really interested in this observatory..." Are you kidding me? it has 141,000 hits 40% MORE hits than Givataim Observatory you mentioned above! Actually, if we are going by Google search, this place is #1 in Israel. Chagai (talk) 16:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And BTW, Wise Observatory, the largest in Israel is not a member of MPC too. I wonder you you failed to mention it? Because it is weaken your point? Same for Givatayim. Chagai (talk) 17:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You probably meant 8200. Without the website of the observatory it is much worse, and yet again you fail to explain how is it that they don't get coverage in the biggest newspapers. It also seems that you have failed to explain the lack of popularity in the internet.
 * Wise Observatory is the biggest one is Israel, so naturally you can't compare between them. There are at least 5 places with bigger telescopes in Israel, and even those who come after Bareket aren't that far behind. Broccoli (talk) 17:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

From when an observatory is being measured by a newspaper ? Any how - here are only FEW of the Bareket observatory's press coverages

BBC channel : http://bareket-astro.com/press/bbc.html

Israel news, channel 2 : http://bareket-astro.com/press/ch2_eclipse.html

Other media, newspapers : http://bareket-astro.com/press/press.htm It is all present at the Bareket web site. All you had to do is to check the information there.


 * universetoday


 * astrophotoinsight


 * [ http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=623 ASTRONOMY magazine]


 * Haaretz newspaper


 * Official astronomical year web site

Bareket's Internet telescope even assisted the Hubble telescope team, to get a green light for one of its space missions!

Furthermore - an observatory is not measured by the size the scope, but based on its capabilities in practice. There are amateurs visual observers in Israel with scopes up to 20", this doesn't mean any thing about its optical, mechanical, nor robotic and research capabilities. Those are strictly visual instruments.

I encourage you to enter the Bareket observatory web site (Hebrew / English version), in order to learn more about the educational activities that are being done in there. Most of those activities are unique in the region, much is being done on a voluntarily basis. Ido. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ido12342001 (talk • contribs) 19:12, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Your observatory has no coverage in the websites of the universities of Israel. All of them. What discoveries did your observatory made?
 * And you say you have hundreds of students visiting you? Considering that there are hundreds of thousands of students in Israel it's not close to establish notability. Broccoli (talk) 20:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And, as for media coverage, let's have a look at that one in Israel:
 * Hebrew scientific/academic websites:
 * Hayadan (a very respectable site): six results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Israeli Astronomical Association: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Weizmann Institute of Science: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Technion – Israel Institute of Technology: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Hebrew University of Jerusalem: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Bar-Ilan University: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Tel Aviv University: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * University of Haifa: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Ben-Gurion University of the Negev: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Open University of Israel: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Lets check outside the academic world:
 * Maariv: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Yedioth Ahronoth: 15 results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Haaretz: 1 results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Ministry of education: 2 results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת" and zero results for "מצפה ברקת".
 * Broccoli (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

This becomes so incorrect, it is embarrassing. Just to prove the point of your useless searches, lets take only one example. We will replace the search words in Tel Aviv university, by the name of Wise observatory. Surely, university should mention her own observatory, right?
 * Tel Aviv University: zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים מצפה רמון" and zero results for "מצפה הכוכבים ע"ש וייז". Oops... how can that be? Well, if you don't know how to search, you get zero results, and that is exactly what you did above. All the searches you made are one big blunder. If you make the search right, מצפה הכוכבים ע"ש וייז or מצפה כוכבים ברקת you will get results as well. And please study the material before you publish it. We are getting tired. Chagai (talk) 00:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And for those who wonder, you can find Bareket observatory in Tel Aviv University web sitein this search for example. All you need to know is how to search. Chagai (talk) 00:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone knows that the best search is with " from both sides. And WOW, you have found a whole bunch of 4 results! Amazing.
 * And now for business: Yet again you find esoteric mentions. One link is broken, one link talks about Nir Barkat and the other mention this in a list of other observatories. Hardly academical notability. Next time you should remember that I can read Hebrew as well. Broccoli (talk) 01:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW, this is the correct search in the TAU website. You made a mistake with the name. It is not named after Mitzpe Ramon but after George Wise and his wife. Broccoli (talk) 01:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I used the EXACT search "" you used for Bareket observatory for Wise observatory and got NOTHING. So please do not try to mislead the people here. Your search was wrong and your conclusions are wrong as well. here is another example why your search is completely wrong, with the name you specified. Chagai (talk) 01:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny thing, because I see here 148 results for מצפה הכוכבים וייז (including other options for the same place) and only 4 results for "מצפה הכוכבים ברקת". Broccoli (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How many results you see on that one? This is what you used above "to prove your point". Don't change now to another search method. It is not a disgrace to admit you were wrong. Chagai (talk) 02:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, since you obviously trying to deny the reality I really have nothing more to say. Broccoli (talk) 08:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Sonification
That sounds interesting (sorry!) I'd like to see description of that expanded, or at least onward links related to it. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Mediation
Hi,

I see that there's a bit of an argument between Hebrew-speaking editors here. So i'll try to help.

I don't know much about astronomy, but i can read Hebrew and i can say that the Haaretz article is a reasonable step towards notability, however it is not a professional astronomy site, but a popular newspaper. If the English astronomy sites that are cited here can be verified as reliable by Wikipedians who know astronomy, than i see no problem with notability.

This leaves the problem of peacock terms. I removed these peacock and non-encyclopedic claims, for which i didn't see a reference:
 * It is the most sophisticated private astronomical-educational observatory in Israel.
 * The observatory is developing unique and sophisticated educative and teaching astronomical materials.
 * The main objective is to light that "intuitive spark" by presenting the heavens in all its glory to those students that represent the next generation of researchers.

For a few other claims i added a "citation needed" template.

Please don't put these claims back and don't remove the "citation needed" templates without an inline reference to an external reliable source.

The non-peacock claims should be checked by someone who understands astronomy. I refer to claims about Astrograph, CCD, SCT and all the other terms which i can't understand.

Citing WP:V, "sources in other languages are acceptable where an English equivalent is not available". If i can help with reading Hebrew sites, don't hesitate to ask me. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 09:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You understand the notability guidelines here better than me, so Ill accept whatever you say about this. My main problem is the form of this article, which looks like an advertisement. Broccoli (talk) 09:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed the parts, which seemed to me the most promotional.
 * The parts about educational activities are probably reasonable
 * In any case, another opinion is always welcome. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Amir for stepping in. I added the source where you marked "citation needed". I think with over 10 sources now, most of them from Astronomical institutes like MPC and IDA, you can take the notability mark out. BTW, the sentence you took out "It is the most sophisticated private astronomical-educational observatory in Israel." is accurate, since it is the only private observatory in Israel, and I can testify on the equipment. Chagai (talk) 13:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't put the notability tag here, and i shall not remove it. Someone who understands astronomy better than myself should remove it.
 * And quite possibly this observatory has the most sophisticated equipment, but the article must not say this with a reference to an external reliable source that compares this observatory with the other Israeli observatories. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It was added by User:Ynhockey, which is an administrator here, but I didn't see he has specific knowledge in Astronomy. If he does not comment here after the changes, I will remove it myself, based on the comments above, and the addition of at least 10 reliable sources. Chagai (talk) 15:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why hurry? Wait for a real expert. It's not he.wp here: notability template is not the same as proposed deletion. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I am a real expert, and the fact I know Hebrew, does not make me non-expert. You want to check my knowledge? check here. Chagai (talk) 13:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but you're also someone with clear WP:COI issues who is sorely trying my patience (and I suspect that of others too) by your continued tendentious attitude and refusal to accept and engage with objective policy. If an independent person posts some claim, or support of a claim, here it carries more weight and credibility than if you yourself (as an obviously deeply involved editor) were to post it. That's perhaps regrettable - we should WP:AGF and assume that any public resource that you point out is just as valid as it was before you pointed to it. However that's not how it works in practice (with the best of intentions) and it becomes increasingly difficult to consider your comments as objective and valid, rather than merely POV-pushing. We have a lot of POV-pushing on WP and we struggle against it. Behaving in any way that resembles those who are pushing a POV makes you resemble them, by implication makes your argument resemble that of the baseless POV-push and hurts your own case. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I wonder. All my edits in this article are technical. I added sources as needed. I converted the table to infobox. I added a picture etc. I didn't wrote this article as well, and the editing of it was done by Amir. So all your long arguments above about POV-pushing are not clear to me. Chagai (talk) 15:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have less problem with your edits in article-space than those in talk: etc. "Well, I am a real expert, and the fact I know Hebrew, does not make me non-expert. You want to check my knowledge?" is just one example of a deliberately confrontational and unhelpful addition.Andy Dingley (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And of course "Wait for a real expert. It's not he.wp here:" is a nice, inviting welcome message... And your comments on it is?Chagai (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This removing of templates should be done by someone other than you since you have COI here. You have been reverted. Broccoli (talk) 09:19, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Chagai, Andrew Dingley is right. On the English Wikipedia our approach to work is radically different than on the Hebrew Wikipedia, and this might be the reason for the misunderstanding. Please don't take this as insult to you or your knowledge, but please also understand that the English Wikipedia does not accept or discard claims based on an individual Wikipedian's knowledge, but based on our policies. Your work on the article has certainly been positive, but there are a lot more issues that need to be hammered out. First and foremost, the article still reads very much like an advertisement. Wikipedia does not promote the importance of the subject—we report the facts, and let the readers judge for themselves. It is therefore inappropriate that most of the article is taken directly from the observatory's website, which has a conflict of interest. The best way to rewrite the article is first remove most of it, then gradually add information from reliable 3rd party sources, such as the Haaretz article, or (even better) academic sources. As soon as several such sources exist and the article is written in a neutral tone, most of the tags can be removed. However, like Broccoli said, you shouldn't remove them by yourself but seek consensus on the talk page. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

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