Talk:Battle of Chawinda/Archive 3

RfC: What was the outcome of the Battle of Chawinda?
In 2015, the community decided at this RfC that Pakistan won the Battle of Chawinda. Pro-Indian editors disputed the RfC outcome on the administrator's noticeboard, and the outcome of this RfC close review was to confirm the Pakistani victory. In 2018, a talk page consensus decided that the battle was "inconclusive". At issue in this RfC is the question of which of the previous consensuses takes precedence.

Note: The Battle of Chawinda was the final engagement of the Second Kashmir War. It is common ground that the Second Kashmir War was inconclusive. The decision needed here is not about the outcome of the campaign, but the outcome of this particular battle within it.

Procedurally speaking, there is dispute about whether RfC nominators should sign their nomination. I'm choosing to sign this one.—S Marshall T/C 12:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * WT:MILHIST notified.—S Marshall T/C 12:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * where is there a dispute about nominators signing their noms? - wolf 16:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Here, for example.—S Marshall T/C 16:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I would point to the guidance at MOS:MIL that gives force to Template:Infobox military conflict and the guidance therein, in respect to the result parameter. It specifically limits the options that should be used. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Survey (What was the outcome of the Battle of Chawinda?)

 * Pakistani victory. A quick skim of some sources reinforces those cited above and it seems to be fairly clear. The sources agree that in this battle the Indians failed to achieve their objectives and the Pakistanis succeeded in achieving theirs. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep the status-quo as is. Borne out by multiple reliable sources. And when a consensus has been changed, it goes without saying that the new one takes precedence, moreso when it has enjoyed wide acceptance. More particularly, the latter discussion dismissed as unreliable the very sources that the RFC took for granted, and no argument seems to have been made against that. Srijanx22 (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, let's make that now. The talk page discussion was initiated by Indian editor Razer2115, who contended that: (1) A source was unreliable because that source was itself based on Pakistani sources (but he doesn't say why he believes that, or how it affects the source's reliability); (2) The fact that a source says it was a "debacle" for India doesn't mean that Pakistan won (a pathetic argument that we can safely disregard); (3) He couldn't find the Zaloga source, so it should be inadmissible (which is directly counter to our core verifiability policy, see WP:SOURCEACCESS); and (4) the Amin source is unreliable because it's by a foreign policy specialist rather than a military one (even though his own argument is that the battle was ended by a UN-mandated ceasefire).  With these four rather dubious points, there was agreement from Indian editor RaviC, confirmed sockpuppet MyLord, Indian editor Sdmarathe, editor of undisclosed nationality 1990'sguy, Indian editor Adamgerber80, and Indian editor DBigXray.  In other words, that whole discussion consisted of Indian editors deciding that India hadn't lost, on the basis of arguments that the previous and much more thorough RfC had already examined and rejected.—S Marshall T/C 16:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Read WP:ASPERSIONS. Your analysis of peoples' comments based on their nationalities is violates WP:DE as well. What really matters is that comments by these users outweigh your grossly misleading personal views and you have provided no rebuttal for that so far. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 02:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I am well aware of those rules, and it is clearly neither disruptive nor racist to point out that everyone who doesn't think India lost the battle is Indian.—S Marshall T/C 08:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you also including reliable sources that don't say Pakistan won this battle? In any case, your aspersions are indeed getting more disrupted since you are coming off as a case of WP:CIR. You should WP:LISTEN to what others say instead of double downing with baseless aspersions. Srijanx22 (talk)  11:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow, bluelinking CIR in response to that? Just... wow.—S Marshall T/C 12:22, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Indian defeat (or ) per independent sources cited by . Sources agree that Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military. Sources also agree that India's military did not attack and hold Chawinda. Not one editor has been able to produce any reliable source that disputes these two facts. So while the war's result was inconclusive, the Battle of Chawinda was a clear  defeat for India. So to answer the RfC's question, it is the 2015 consensus that should take precedence and be upheld.  P.I. Ellsworth    ed.  put'r there 19:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose any change to infobox. The fighting was ended by a UN-brokered cease-fire, as per this book (p.160) by Jeremy Black, about as reliable as they come. Neither side seems to have scored a definitive victory, unlike the case in regard to the battle at Asal Uttar, where the "Indian Centurions defeated the 264 tanks of Pakistan's First Armored Division, mostly Pattons", as Black states on the same page in his book. While the Pakistanis did put up a comparatively better show at Chawinda, as Black notes, none of these many sources have interpreted that to be a victory for Pakistan. The Indians continued to camp therein and continued to have possession of more than 500 square kilometers of Pakistani territory in that area. Regards, Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 02:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Inconclusive Firstly, we must disentangle what the sources say about this particular battle from the greater campaign.  Defence is one of the four phases of war.  A victory is not achieved from defence but from subsequent counter-attack.  A failure to achieve the objectives of an attack "may" constitute a defeat for the attacker but does not necessarily constitute a victory for a defender.  However, this is not for us to determine but for the sources to determine.  Further, it is not for us to reach conclusions such as: when author X says such-and-such, he was meaning that it was a victory for Y.  It is not up to us to put words into the mouth of a source because of how we might interpret their meaning.  That would be WP:SYNTH.  Stating that an outcome is "inconclusive" is less problematic if the consensus of sources is not to attribute victory to one side or the other.
 * The role of the infobox is to summarise the article. The outcome should be discussed in the "aftermath" section (or similar), where the views expressed in reliable sources can be summarised.  Where there are conflicting views of the result, a balanced account should be given, including the reasons given in the sources for reaching different conclusions.  This has not occurred in this article.  Further, it is not the role of the infoxbox to be a substitute for this. There are some six sources cited in respect to the result in the infobox and only one specifically refers to an Indian defeat (but not a Pakistani victory).  Unfortunately, I was only able to see a snippet of the text in Google Books and couldn't determine the context of the statement.  If we were to report this as a "Pakistani victory" it should reflect the consensus among authors of good quality reliable sources that explicitly describe it as a victory.  This is not the case. On the otherhand, the consensus of the sources is that it was "inconclusive", being both explicitly stated and because a victory is not explicitly stated.  In any case, the body of the article should be improved in respect to the outcome, in which case, "see Aftermath" could be a better option.  Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 02:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Your explanation appears to be very... wanting., and yet there are literally thousands of times in the past when it was a good defense that led to victory for the defenders. Sorry, but that also is a ??? in my book. And it is not WP:SYNTH to conclude that when sources say "Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military," and "India's military did not attack, take and hold Chawinda" that India's military was defeated and Pakistan's military was victorious. Nobody's putting words in the mouths of the reliable sources, which are crystal clear on these two facts.  P.I. Ellsworth    ed.  put'r there 04:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Wanting? A good defence can lead to victory - when it is followed by attack.  In this instance, the counter-attack was curtailed.  If "victory" is winning; "not loosing" is not the same as victory.   There are semantics as to what constitutes victory and these are for the sources to determine when ascribing victory to one side or another - if they do.  It is clear that the Indian attack failed but no good quality sources explicitly describe this as a Pakistani victory.  The statement is: ...when sources say "Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military," and "India's military did not attack, take and hold Chawinda" that India's military was defeated and Pakistan's military was victorious.  By this, a WP editor is observing facts and applying criteria that they have chosen to reach a conclusion.  This is the very definition of WP:SYNTH.  Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 09:26, 17 April 2021 (UTC)


 * We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Let's say you lived in a castle, and surrounding that castle were an army that wants your castle. To take your castle would be pivotal in a greater war your people are having with that army's country. But your army successfully wards off any sign of attack by the other army. You soon learn that the other country has asked for an armistice to end the war, and you and all in your castle agree to it. Would you not be celebrating that evening? What would you be celebrating? a tie? No, you would be celebrating the fact that you held onto your castle against the invading army. You would celebrate a victory in the battle to save your castle, and you would celebrate the fact that you did not lose the overall war, which will go down in history as "inconclusive". Your victory to save your castle was the decisive factor in stopping the overall war! Chawinda was like your castle, a clearcut victory that led to cessation of hostilities. That is precisely what objective people understand when they read the reliable sources about the Battle of Chawinda.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * By this medieval "castle theory", we would have to describe the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 as a victory for India since it protected its "castle" from a Pakistani invasion. But we don't do that. We call it a "stalemate". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not according to the reliable sources. Those describe Chawinda in terms of the medieval "castle theory", and then they go on to say that India, rather than do the "unwise" thing and pursue Chawinda, petitioned the UN to declare a stalemate. The Chawinda "castle dwellers" agreed to it, which according to reliable sources resulted in an "inconclusive" end of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. The Chawinda "castle dwellers victory in battle brought about the cessation of violence for a time. On these matters the reliable sources are crystal clear, and anyone who can read with understanding would be able to discern this.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 19:49, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, so, it is the UN that declared a "stalemate". Little do I know! But by what definition of "reliable sources" are these sources unreliable? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It does not matter how I, as the castellan, view my successful defence of the castle. What matters here is how it is judged by history as reported in (good quality) reliable sources.  Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 00:09, 18 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Pakistan victory.Based on the above discussion I agree that Pakistan won the battle of Chawinda. Successfully defending and winning a battle are the same. Markewilliams (talk) 13:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Pakistan victory. Reported by reliable sources on how the battle unfolded. Sea Ane (talk) 03:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * They don't. You are engaging in WP:TE with that misrepresentation. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 09:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Inconclusive. I would be less than frank if I did not say I am thoroughly unimpressed with the hollow arguments provided by the supporters of Pakistani victory above. Elements of victory and defeat are difficult to define, especially when it comes to battles like this one that ends with a formal ceasefire, but it's most certainly not our job to make those judgments by drawing inferences or making our own interpretations but that of the historians... Aman goel provides an excellent source that in no uncertain terms state that the battle of Chawinda ended only with the ceasefire, but does not state that it resulted in a Pakistani victory. The infobox sources do make those judgments--that the battle's outcome was inconclusive or indecisive. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 09:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 *  Maintain status-quo was a nightmare before any change without real new sources would again put the article back to dark ages, the current version seems fine --Shrikanthv (talk) 09:46, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Pakistani victory, as agreed in the previous RfC.—S Marshall T/C 12:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You can do better than agreeing with yourself given the WP:BADNAC was done by you. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 13:12, 18 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Others have suggested that my previous close was bad, which is why the community reviewed it here. You will note from that diff that my close was unanimously confirmed on the Administrator's Noticeboard, and I put it to you that the Pakistani victory was the only possible policy-compliant outcome of that discussion.  There was prolific socking on both sides, but I found it particularly ironic that User:OccultZone removed a bunch of sock comments that favoured Pakistan just before closure.  Naturally, he allowed the edits by his own socks, User:VandVictory, User:నిజానికి, and User:SamuelDay1, to stand.  I certainly agree with you that this article has a long history of bad faith editing, which is why this discussion will require closure by a previously uninvolved closer of great experience and wisdom.—S Marshall T/C 13:37, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, most people agreed that Pakistan didn't win the battle and (a prolific sockmaster who is still blocked) voted to support your closure which tells a lot. Given your deep feelings about the subject, you were the wrong person to close the discussion. If you really know the meaning of unanimously then consider Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2 where there was unanimous agreement that infobox must not mislead readers with unsourced and misleading opinions and given its longevity it easily outweighs the outdated and poorly closed RfC. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 16:44, 18 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Six years ago when I closed that, I knew nothing about the Battle of Chawinda and indeed I'd never heard of the Second Kashmir War. I had never edited in the topic area.  During the course of my close, I read the sources presented, and since then, I have been required to defend my close.  In the process of doing so, I have read enough text about the matter to become educated about it, and I have noticed that the better sources that are actually about this battle (rather than the campaign) describe it as a "debacle" or a "bloodbath" for the Indian army.  I do think that this means India lost, and I do think that's the same as saying that Pakistan won; but some years ago when I closed the RfC that you wish to overturn, I had not formed that view.  It was appropriate and reasonable for me to close it at the time.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 23:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Stalemate/Inconclusive Lack of reliable sources term it as a victory for either countries. That said, the overall victor of the war was India but this battle was a clear stalemate. --Yoonadue (talk) 16:52, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Inconclusive I fail to see any convincing proof that "Pakistan victory" is the consensus of independent reliable sources (which is what NPOV would require). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:12, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Pakistani victory It makes more sense. Like all individual battles, each one's accurate outcome should be noted, even if the overall average of an entire war is different from the individual battle.--AdillAdell (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Inconclusive or Stalemate - "Battle of Chawinda" does not necessarily mean a "Battle for Chawinda". The Indian forces were interested in occupying as much Pakistani territory as they could, in order to use it as a bargaining counter during later negotiations. The Pakistani forces were obviously interested in blocking them. The clash happened to take place at Chawinda, but Chawinda itself was not a goal of any kind. The Indians could not take Chawinda. Their advance got halted. These facts are not contested. But neither were they "beaten" so as to allow the Pakistanis to take back their territory. Whatever territory the Indians occupied prior to Chawinda, they continued to hold until the negotiations. Pakistan agreed generally with the depth of penetration claimed by India. So, this fact is also not disputed. All that is disputed is the meaning of the battle.


 * The Pakistanis and their partisans want to make representations to imply that Pakistan was winning and it was India that was saved by the ceasefire. The facts do not bear this out. The US defense attaché in Karachi argued, “if the Indians press their attacks, the Pakistanis will be faced with the possibility of a complete and humiliating collapse of their army and air craft.” The press conference of Pakistani president on 15 September instead of showing a defiant and resolute stance, degenerated into Ayub appealing for Johnson and the US government to intervene in the dispute. This appeal showed clearly to the world that Pakistan was now desperate to end the war despite all its official statements to date. In the end, Pakistan accepted an unconditional ceasefire, the only kind of ceasefire India would agree to.


 * Three scholarly sources have been provided for stating it as a stalemate, including a Pakistani analyst. The corresponding sources provided for Pakistani victory are weak in my view. Zaloga's coverage is quite wrong in details, as explained below under Sources, and the other two sources make only vague statements. In the overall context of the war, this battle is what broke Pakistan's resolve to continue fighting. And that is all that mattered for India. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 05:35, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note added: I do not regard the old 2015 RfC as valid any more since the state of knowledge has improved (both among scholars and Wikipedians). -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:07, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Inconclusive Special care should be taken cases were a winner is not clear and in this case it is indeed inconclusive. Riddhidev BISWAS (talk) 18:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Stalemate. The sources that User:Kautilya3 mentioned just above suggest just that. I don't see how it can be a Pakistani victory (even though Indian forces were halted) when India captured Pakistani territory. Clearly wasn't a victory at either end. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 19:58, 21 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Inconclusive. No evidence that Chawinda was a Pakistani victory. Of note is that reliable sources have overwhelmingly called this battle to be inconclusive or indecisive, and rightly so. The Pakistanis did not gain anything from the long-drawn out fighting on this front, which was brought to an end by the ceasefire brokered by the UN. Both sides suffered heavy casualties. The Pakistani army did not rescue its territory from the clutches of the Indian army, which indisputably brought Pakistan to its knees in the later negotiations as it accepted the Tashkent Agreement, which entailed having a return to the status quo, which was a far cry from Pakistan's declared war aims, and consequently brought loss of face to the Pakistani state. SignificantPBD (talk) 11:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Pakistani victory, per several editors above. Idealigic (talk) 11:16, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Inconclusive. The assessment that the battle was inconclusive is borne out by reliable scholarly sources, so this really is a no brainer. Wikipedia cannot differ from the scholarly sources in stating the outcome. Scholarly accounts of the war have invariably focused on the fighting in the Sialkot theatre, for it was here that the Indian thrust had been relentless, cutting through the Pakistani defences, and in the process carrying the war deep into the territory of West Pakistan, eventually culminating in the Battle of Chawinda. This backdrop alone demands that people who hold strong views on the question either one way or the other provide reliable scholarly sources that unambiguously support the position they assert in this consensus building discussion. Surprisingly enough, and telling at the same time, the protagonist of Pakistani victory have so far failed to come up with any reliable scholarly source with respect to thier claim concerning the outcome of the battle. Indeed, the hollowness of thier argument is most soundingly betrayed by their resort to WP:OR. This utter inability to provide sources is telling and indicative of the fact that the notion of Pakistani victory has no support in reliable sources. Indeed, historians have written at length about the Battle of Chawinda, and yet not one of them have considered the battle to be a Pakistani victory. The view is simply not supported by scholars.On the other hand, we are looking at the scholarly sources that unambiguously state that a ceasefire put an end to the fighting on this front, and that the results were inconclusive. So where is the dispute to be found? Certainly, there were other aspects of the Battle of Chawinda. The Pakistani forces had been rendered unable to mount any counter-attack, which only worked in India's favour. By the time the United Nations cease-fire came into effect, and the fighting ended, India had overrun in excess of 500 square kilometres of Pakistani territory in Sialkot. This broke the back of Pakistan, as it ended up losing vast tracts of territory to India left, right, and centre. Heck, it seems to have lost almost everywhere it fought. India, on the other hand, had been clearly rewarded.To reiterate, the thrust of my argument is that no reliable scholarly source has considered this battle to be a Pakistani victory, whereas those that have considered the battle to be inconclusive, and explicitly so, exist in plenty. MBlaze Lightning (talk) 14:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Pakistani victory This is really a no-brainer and should have long been reversed to the longstanding consensus of 2015, as the 2018 discussion was anything but that (partisan votes and "orchestrated" discussions maketh not consensus). As the nom. points out, the lack of participation in that discussion is telling. No matter which source you read, the literature is unanimously clear that the Indians not only sustained heavy losses in Chawinda, but failed above and beyond to meet the objectives they had set forth in the leadup to that offensive. One example of blatant source misrepresentation is the "territorial changes" claim in the infobox, as the 460 square kilometres being referred to was the total area ceded in all of Sialkot sector. Yet, here we have the hilarious claim being made that Pakistan lost this territory in the Chawinda battle, with a source that evidently makes no mention of Chawinda (double whammy). With such glaring errors, it's not hard to deduct at face value the merit of the arguments which seem to want to portray a rose-tinted alternate reality, including the extremely weak and flawed points made below. The fact is, I have yet to come across a single source, based on sound, reliable evidence even after all these years, that actually says the Indians suffered anything short of an effective defeat at Chawinda, or that they did not perform poorly when mounted with the Pakistani counterattack. It is self-explanatory as below and in many other sources:

Indian sources such as Abhyankar and Proudfoot, whose research is also widely used by M.A. Zaki in a paper for IDSA (article), acknowledge Chawinda as a "failure" and "unsuccessful" operation for India.

Grauer characterises Chawinda as a defensive victory favouring Pakistan:

Bajwa, published by Hurst, notes the Indian command referred to Chawinda as a disaster:

Spencer C. Tucker, in his A Global Chronology of Conflict, concludes that while the 1965 war ended days later in a ceasefire without decisive results, Pakistan was the major victor in Chawinda:

If we look at commentaries (for the sake of discussion), e.g. The Guardian's piece on Hamid Gul:

Independent:

The Diplomat:

etc.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 19:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Just noting that the Haskew source is just recycling Zaloga's numbers from 1980. Whereas Zaloga stated them as Pakistani claims, this man is taking them to be fact. He hasn't even noticed that Higgins updated the count. None of these tank pundits is really reliable. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * My dear Kautilya3. Given your extremely weak rebuttals to the source material below, if I were you, I'd first focus on drawing the line between what the sources unanimously agree upon and the one thing they all get right (that it was an Indian defeat, as plain as daylight!) and only then worry about the inconsequentialities (whether India lost 20 tanks, 120 or 200 for that matter). You remind me of the post-independence babus who, after the colonisers left the subcontinent with pockets full, were only left wondering whether they were economically better off or worse off (after all the loot and plunder!). Let the experts determine the latter. You are engaging in directionless original research and WP:FORUM, which is adding zero to the discussion about the battle result, which is what this this is precisely about.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 08:49, 16 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Let me also just point out that Spencer Tucker does not actually ascribe victory to Pakistan. Quite to the contrary, he writes: The link that Mar4d provides above looks like a copy of an old newspaper article from wartime itself, written in present tense, and not Tucker's own words. Besides, the same article goes on to note, in sharp contradiction on the same page, and this he did not mention, "". It also undermines its own credibility when it claims that "The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border", which undoubtedly gainsays the gains of India's 1 Corps in the Sialkot theatre. Whereas Grauer not only completely fails WP:RSCONTEXT, but also his one-liner does not tantamount to a Pakistani victory, especially read together with the available reliable scholarly commentary.So none of those sources have ascribed to Pakistan the victory in the Battle of Chawinda, and that is indeed rather telling. The Indian failure to break through the Pakistani defences at Chawinda is not itself in dispute. But the battle had many aspects. The Indian thrust, which culminated at Chawinda, had gone deep into West Pakistan. The Pakistanis themselves had been rendered unable to push back the Indians from what was their own territory. India held onto its gains, and that is all that mattered in the long run. Mind you that the scholarly sources in no uncertain terms have concluded that the fighting, which ended with the ceasefire, was  or . This inability to confute arguments that have already been advanced quite clearly stems from an inability to understand other people's arguments and what the sources actually say. MBlaze Lightning (talk) 08:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You do realise, don't you, that Tucker is ascribing to Indian claims in the same passage when he quotes the figure of 300 Pakistani tanks? The passage that I shared is not a newspaper clipping. It is actually from Tucker's publication which is a listing of various military conflicts, and uses present tense for other events on the same page/s. The passage I shared is actually more comprehensive in stating so the reason for the Pakistani victory, which was the inability of the Indians to capture Sialkot and cutting access through the Grand Trunk Road. The passage you quoted is highlighting the Indians' numerical superiority right up until the ceasefire which isn't even debatable. So, quoting Spencer once again, and combined with the preponderance of sources (see WP:WEIGHT), my point still stands.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 09:16, 16 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Also adding excerpts from Cloughley, who devotes a detailed section to Chawinda in his book. This is a good source that goes into depth regarding the Pakistani clearance operation, and agrees with the above.

 Mar4d  ( talk ) 11:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Inconclusive or Stalemate. It seems to be the majority opinion, and for a reason. Having followed the discussion, and observed folks who have demonstrated that they have done a great deal of digging and ruminating and come to a reasoned conclusion that the battle did not yield a clear winner, I do not see a reason to not think in the same direction, for their arguments seem convincingly puissant. The fact that this battle took place deep inside Pakistani territory means that "halting Indian advance" cannot be the same as saying the "Pakistani won", particularly when one ruminates the fact that the Pakistani forces could not and did not endeavour to push back the Indians. The reliable sources do not say that the Pakistanis defeated the Indians. But they are unequivocal in saying that the battle was a stalemate and ended with a truce. Kerberous (talk) 01:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Questions
Would hopefully like to help out the closer on this issue and ask some questions. This is not to generate more opinions on the matter, it's just to clarify what the outcome will be when this RfC closes. This RfC began as the direct result of previous talks above it. We are asked to choose between the RfC consensus of 2015 (which upheld the Battle of Chawinda as a victory for Pakistan) or the more recent discussion of 2018 (which decided to call the battle result "inconclusive" in the same manner as the war's outcome itself was inconclusive). It does not look like this RfC has come to much of an agreement on this matter, and I'm curious to find out what that "no consensus" actually means. Does it mean that the stronger consensus of 2015 should outweigh that of 2018? or will "no consensus" mean that the 2018 discussion's result will continue to prevail? Again, these questions are rhetorical and just try to sum up what may happen when this RfC closes.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 16:25, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Most people who commented here answered the question, "What was the result of Battle of Chawinda?" (posed at the top). I agree that the OP made some comments about the old RfC etc. But they are of no consequence because no RfC and no consensus is ever permanent. New information becomes available, new sources get written, and new editors come in and bring new expertise. I don't believe the old RfC and its result have any bearing on this one. The old discussion 2018 also has no bearing on it. We are looking at the question afresh. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:14, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Beg to differ – the OP was specific with I'd say that puts the old 2015 RfC and the 2018 discussion right at the focus of this RfC, which makes my questions quite valid, thank you very much.  P.I. Ellsworth    ed.  put'r there 21:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Beg to differ – the OP was specific with I'd say that puts the old 2015 RfC and the 2018 discussion right at the focus of this RfC, which makes my questions quite valid, thank you very much.  P.I. Ellsworth    ed.  put'r there 21:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussion
What do RS say?Slatersteven (talk) 14:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * @Gog the Mild: They don't. Surely Pakistan had no objective of losing more land to India and also suffering more casualties than India. Srijanx22 (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * RS say two pertinent facts: 1) Pakistan's military held on to and did not cede Chawinda to India's military, and 2) India's military did not attack and take Chawinda. Those two facts are not in dispute among reliable sources.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 19:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Do any RS declare who won?Slatersteven (talk) 08:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Here it's described by the Canberra Times as a Pakistani victory, but in my 2015 RfC close I decided to give that source less weight because there are book sources written by specialists. Here it's described as a "bloodbath" for the Indian army.  This is disputed by some editors who don't think that means India lost, or who think that India losing doesn't mean Pakistan won.  I have been accused of incompetence and disruptive behaviour, above, for pointing out that all the editors who think this are Indian. Here it's described as inconclusive.  There's also a source by renowned tank pundit S. J. Zaloga, which isn't currently available online, that describes a "debacle" for the Indian army that was halted by a ceasefire, but it's disputed whether Zaloga was talking about the Battle of Chawinda as a whole or a single engagement within it.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 12:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Where on earth does the Canberra Times describe the battle to be a Pakistani victory? It had but reported the sequence of events as told by the Pakistani commanders while the battle was still going on: "Pakistan troops were reported confident today of scoring a major victory in the Sialkot sector, where bitter fighting between Indian and Pakistani tanks continues." So are you trying to deceive people by spouting such misleading falsehood? The sources clearly assert that the battle was ended by the ceasefire, so how on earth could a WP:PRIMARY source from a wartime even relevant today? As for John Fricker, he was commissioned by the Pakistani government to write thier history of the war, and his book is full of propagandistic statements. He is far from being an independent authority on the war, and anything he says or claims will be taken with a bucket full of salt and grouped under the Pakistani claims wherever deemed necessary, given his association with the Pakistani government. This has been said time and again, so your willingness to resort to prevarications and obfuscation is rather unfortunate. On one hand, you peddle conspiracy theories that "Indians" somehow schemed among themselves to flout the RFC, and established a consensus of their own to get rid of the Pakistani victory in the infobox, which they detested, and on the other you engage in this POV pushing that Pakistan won the battle by using propagandistic Pakistani government sources.The more you speak, the more you betray the hollowness of your argument. You really have no case for changing the consensus. The outcome of the battle has been explicitly deemed to be inconclusive not by one, but multiple reliable sources. About which you have nothing to say. Srijanx22 (talk)  13:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * (1) An Australian newspaper isn't a primary souce for the outcome of a battle between India and Pakistan. (2) Yes, John Fricker was paid by Pakistan to write an account of the war, and yes, he drew on Pakistani sources.  Good sources are written by people who know their subject, and that often means that good sources aren't neutral.  As Wikipedians, it's often our job to construct a NPOV article using biased sources.  Fricker is perfectly admissible.  (3) Please show with diffs any occasion where I have deceived people with misleading falsehood, any occasion where I have resorted to prevarications and obfuscation, and any occasion where I have peddled a conspiracy theory about Indians scheming to subvert the RfC.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 14:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, the question you need to answer, instead of denying the very obvious implications, is "Where...does the Canberra Times describe the battle to be a Pakistani victory"? Moreover, a source does not become secondary by its place of origin, but by the independent commentary it offers, which your source does not. While WP:BIASED sources can be used in certain cases with in-text attribution, provided a "level of independence from the topic the source is covering" is ensured, Fricker was hired by the Pakistani military (a belligerent in the war) to write for them. Under such circumstances, it's no longer a matter of just bias, but also that of conflict of interest, which makes Fricker completely inadmissible for making conclusions of victory and defeat as far as the war or for that matter the battle is concerned, if at all he does, for he is bound to glorify his contractors. MBlaze Lightning (talk) 15:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As a general rule, I'd be very careful about using someone such as Fricker in this case to write objectively about the result of the battle. There's a reason PAID SPA's don't write articles on their subjects that include details of failures and scandals. Since this is about a contentious/disputed battle outcome, his opinion on the matter would need to be attributed in text, I should think, at the very minimum. His opinion is not very good on its own. I have no overall opinion on what this infobox says and am not familiar with the particulars of this case, but I think one would need a better source than Fricker to support making such a claim. And I would remind everyone that "Disputed" is also a relatively acceptable outcome to put in the infobox, with further info included in the article text. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've almost no involvement in the military history field, but it seems to me someone paid by one side of the conflict for the work in question, no matter how reputable they may be, shouldn't really be taken as an unbiased source. A particular point here which comes from my experience in other areas. This seems to be a reasonably significant part of a very significant war several decades ago. It would seem to me it should be well covered in a lot of different good sources. If the claim being made by Fricker is well supported, it would seem to me it shouldn't be that hard to find one or more better sources. If these can't be found, I would question whether the claim is really well accepted. It's possible there are a variety of different opinions and Fricker's is still significant enough to include, but that would imply there isn't one undisputed outcome and the article would need to properly reflect that. Nil Einne (talk) 11:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It's the largest tank battle since the Second World War. There are, essentially, three categories of sources: Indian historians ("stalemate"), Pakistani historians (who portray it like the stand of the 300 at Sparta), and independent sources that are basically about the tanks.  The latter compare the Pakistani tanks which were a mixed bunch of mainly Shermans and Pattons of late WW2 vintage, and the Indian tanks which were also mixed, but generally more modern, and included a substantial number of Centurions, a considerably superior vehicle.  The tank pundits are saying that on a comparison of equipment, India should have broken through and swept deep into Pakistan, but didn't.  They aren't saying Pakistan won the battle, they're saying that India lost it (with the implication that the cause of this was Indian generals mishandling their armour).  In the 2015 RfC I decided that it was better to phrase this as a Pakistani victory than a defeat for India.  There's a concerted attempt going on to rule out sources that disfavour one of the sides.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 08:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * So which of these are "Indian historians"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:27, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Territorial changes
The territorial changes section says that While the source cited to it doesn't say that it was captured during the Battle of Chawinda, rather it was captured in the Sialkot region. So it should be removed as the Indian advance was halted at Chawinda they didn't gain any territory in this battle. LiamKhan469 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * This appears to be a fair observation of the actual battle. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Then please remove it.LiamKhan469 (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Request was made by a user banned for sockpuppetry bop34 • talk • contribs 12:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

RFC: Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory
In light of the sources mentioned below, should the result be changed from "inconclusive" to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory? Thanks --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock

Following are some independent sources that state that this battle result was an Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory:


 * 1) Arming without Aiming: India's Military Modernization"India did not press the advantage and soon after suffered its own debacle in the Battle of Chawinda. When the Soviets offered mediation, New Delhi accepted, and India’s strategic condition remained unchanged"
 * 2) "both [India and Pakistan] proved adept with smaller forces in a defensive role such as the 2nd Armd. Bde. at Asal Uttar and the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes"
 * 3) M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965"Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise, and an opportunity was lost. Even so, although Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive in the Sialkot region, they had shot their bolt and were exhausted. Pakistani armour had been battered, and stocks of artillery ammunition were nearly expended."
 * 4) Commanding Military Power: Organizing for Victory and Defeat on the Battlefield"Among the notable defensive victories, however, were the Soviet defeat of the Japanese at Changkufeng Hill in 1938, Japan's repeated failures to retake Henderson Field on Guadalcanal between August and November 1942, the Indian failure to defeat the Pakistanis in the tank battle at Chawinda in the 1965 war fought between those countries, and Egypt and Syria's ultimately unsuccessful assaults on Israel through the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights during the Yom Kippur War."
 * 5) Valour Enshrined: 1947-1979 an Indian source"In the overall context, the Chawinda attack was a failure and in the confusion after an unsuccessful operation, the valour of those who fought and died went unheard and unsung. But in the Regiment, the battle of Chawinda will always be remembered and honoured as one more example of bravery in the unending saga of Maratha chivalry."
 * 6) From Kutch to Tashkent: The Indo-Pakistan War of 1965"with their successful defence of Chawinda, and the Indians' inability to take the town must have been demoralising for the troops. The casualties inflicted on Indian troops in the last assault on 19 September effectively meant that 1 Armoured Division was also no longer able to carry out major offensive operations from that date. It appears that tensions amongst the senior commanders of this operation did not assist and it seems that there was also a failure to command from the front, from brigade commanders down. The Indian commander on the whole western front was highly critical of his own forces"
 * 7) Tank: 100 Years of the World's Most Important Armored Military Vehicle"During the Battle of Chawinda, the largest armoured engagement since Kursk, Pakistani forces halted an Indian invasion of their country. In September 1965, the Pakistanis blunted a thrust by the Indian 1st Armored Division as each side fielded more than 250 tanks. Pakistani armor included the M48 and improved Sherman tanks of World War II vintage, while the Indians committed both Centurions and Shermans to the fight. When it was over, the Pakistanis had lost an estimated 44 tanks, while the Indians suffered up to 120 destroyed, although they later asserted that they had lost only 29 armored vehicles"
 * 8) A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2"The Indians then reinforce and push the Pakistanis back to their base at Chawinda, where the Indians are again halted on September 10. After the Indians defeat a counterattack, the Pakistanis take up defensive positions. Both sides now reinforce. Although the Indians substantially outnumber the Pakistanis in manpower, many of the Pakistani tanks are superior to those of the Indians, and their artillery has greater range. The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle."
 * 9) A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections"On 12 September the Pakistanis tried without success to retake Phillora, and next day the Indians attempted to outflank Chawinda from the east but, in an impressive display of flexibility, the Pakistanis moved 19 and 20 Lancers and 1 FF (of 1 Armd. Div.) to its defence, and the Indian advance was halted after fierce fighting... An attack against Chawinda was planned for the 14th, but in a classic employment of good intelligence and efficient artillery the Pakistanis located the forming-up place of the Garhwali battalion that was to lead the assault and brought fire down on it. The battalion was forced to withdraw and the attack did not take place... On the night of 15/16 September the Indians again tried to outflank the main Pakistani force, this time by pressing west to Jassoran... then south to cut off Chawinda from the rear. Once the village was isolated, the Indians considered it would fall... but their armour was engaged so heavily by Pakistani anti-tank weapons that it could not advance further. The battalion held out until 17 September, when it was forced to withdraw to Jassoran"
 * 10) The Independent"He was credited with contributing to what has been regarded as a victory for Pakistan in the Battle of Chawinda, by holding back the Indian offensive towards Sialkot. The action has been described as the greatest tank battle since the Second World War, and Pakistan commentators called it “the graveyard of Indian tanks”. Hostilities were ended by a UN ceasefire."
 * 11) The Diplomat"The Indian and Pakistani armies fought each other another 15 days, during the course of which both armies won their share of tactical victories — India in Phillora and Khem Karan, Pakistan in Chawinda — but none decisive enough to alter the ultimate result of the war. A ceasefire was called by the UN on September 22 and the Tashkent Declaration was signed between Ayub and Shastri in January 1966, thus bringing an end to hostilities." Blocked sock

*WT:MILHIST notified.--101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Comment: I also have noticed that this source is mentioned in the result field even though the source is talking about a stalemate at the whole Sialkot Front, not in this battle which was a part of Sialkot Front. --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock

Comment: As has pointed out. Adding the link to previous RFC 2015 RfC, here the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" but then it was removed with a one-sided 2018 "RfC". 101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock

Comment Could I suggest that you provide fuller bibliographic details for the sources cited above. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC) It would also be useful to indicate which of these sources were not considered in the course of the previous RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Survey (Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory)
If editors disagree with adding newspaper then I have no problem with it.-101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock
 * Comment sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with the "inconclusive" interpretation. I'd be curious if there are any military journals that look at this outcome. Since this is generally a contested subject, I suggest avoiding newspapers like The Independent or The Diplomat. The independent even says "what has been regarded as a victory" which begs the question, regarded by who? -Indy beetle (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 101.53.225.41, what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 8,000 bytes, the statement above (from the tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for  to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Requests for comment/History and geography. The complex formatting may be exacerbating the problem. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * fixed format of initial statement.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 18:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 05:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * my pleasure!  Paine  10:34, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Inconclusive/Speedy close MOS:MIL is the applicable guidance, with X victory and Inconclusive but not X defeat being permitted parameters for the result field. The parameter should represent the consensus of [good quality, independent] sources.  We are explicitly cautioned against WP:OR. We should also consider the "immediate result" and not subsequent events that may have resulted from.   would suggest avoiding newspapers.  I would agree.  Furthermore, I would be cautious in using popularist histories (ie Bloomsbury and Osprey).  The OP would state: Now in the light of the sources mentioned above should the result be changed to Indian Defeat or Pakistani Victory? However, a goodly number of these source were explicitly considered during the preceding RfC only 18 months ago.  I am not seeing what is new or changed that might reasonably lead to a different outcome.  The sources would clearly indicate that the Indians failed to achieve their objective.  However, this is not the same as a defeat for one side or a victory for the other.  Leaving aside the newspaper sources, only two make anything like a categorical statement. Zologa would say: the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes. But the 25th Cav was only part of the Pakistani force and the statement would be referring to an early phase of the battle, so we can scratch that one.  Spencer Tucker (A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2) would say: The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle.  The problem is, the article is not telling us this and that India still retained control of Pakistani territory?  The OP would ask us to read the other sources and draw a conclusion that this is either a Pakistani victory or an Indian defeat.  However, when the sources aren't specifically saying as much, that would be WP:SYNTH.  On the other hand, we do have two or three sources that are specifically calling it inconclusive, indecisive or a stalemate (the immediate result following Chawinda).  Both sides got a bloody nose and lacked the will to continue. One side withdrew and the other side couldn't follow. There is nothing new to discuss. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Without being too familiar with the particulars, I would add that an option is always to add a bullet point under "Inconclusive" that says "See Outcome section". -Indy beetle (talk) 05:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose taken in their overall balance, and mostly in particular, these sources endorse "Inconclusive", and none speaks of a clear victory/defeat AFAI can see - without WP:OR interpretation of their content. sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with … "inconclusive". I endorse everything Indy beetle & Cinderella157 say below. Pincrete (talk) 06:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Previous RFC stands - Two sections above, you find a six-month long RfC barely a year ago, with wide-ranging comments from a variety of editors. It came out with the result of "no consensus"/"inconclusive". What has changed so that a new RfC is warranted again? WP:RFCBEFORE is not satisfied. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:03, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment In before we get further comments along the lines of "but past RfC was inconclusive"; the question wasn't answered then, and the closure itself acknowledged this; again, which of the multiple sources available on the subject clearly negated the Indian military's tactical failure in this battle? Quoting one of the participants from the last RfC, the "Indian military were unable to take Chawinda".  Mar4d  ( talk ) 14:17, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Link to the 2015 RfC, where the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" before it was removed post the one-sided 2018 "RfC".  Mar4d  ( talk ) 14:22, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Pakistani victory. Sources have been clear all along that it was the overall conflict that was "inconclusive". The final battle of that conflict, at Chawinda, was a decisive victory for Pakistan. Had it not been so, then the overall outcome would not have been so "inconclusive", imho.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 18:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I was the closer of the 2015 RfC, and I've been asked to comment here by a message on my talk page. When I closed the 2015 RfC I knew nothing about the Battle of Chawinda, but since then I've learned a lot about it, having been required to defend my close against attempts to overturn it and having read a lot of commentary and sources.The battle of Chawinda was the final battle of an inconclusive war.  Territorial changes after the battle were minimal and not material, and the Indian side likes to portray the Battle of Chawinda as a draw.  This case is arguable, and if you cherry-pick the right reliable sources and pretend the others don't exist, you can justify the outcome of the 2018 RfC.  But really, this ignores the fact that India outnumbered and outgunned Pakistan at Chawinda.  The Indian Army attempted a set piece assault on fortified positions and was bloodily repulsed.  The Pakistani side likes to portray it as a glorious last stand that held off the enemy onslaught until peace was achieved.Personally, I think the Pakistani side of it is less wrong than the Indian side.  Pakistan was trying to hold India off, and succeeded.  This was the best result for Pakistan that was militarily possible.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 19:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hear hear, well put – much to be said for the ability of people to defend their home territory.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 01:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment For the record, I am confident that the IP editor who started this RfC is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)  11:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC)