Talk:Battle of France

Recent edits
You set the date for de Jong Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog 1939–1945 Deel 3 Mei '40 as 1971 but on the pdf it's 1970 so I'm altering the year. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 16:09, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Fine with me, just make sure to update the related sfn and not just the cite. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * 'Tis done, thanks for the trouble you've taken. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 19:02, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Tank strengths
Hi, the article is looking good.

The section German Army, 'Tactics', contains this sentence: "German tank battalions (Panzer-Abteilungen) were to be equipped with the Panzerkampfwagen III and Panzerkampfwagen IV tanks but shortages led to the use of light Panzerkampfwagen II and even lighter Panzerkampfwagen I instead.[citation needed]"

There are several reasons for said shortages: but I'm not sure how much of the following can be meaningfully abbreviated into the article. Info comes from my my draft article User:MinorProphet/Draft subpages/WW2 Maybach gearboxes, which is slowly taking shape.


 * According to Jentz's Panzertruppen vol. 1, at the start of the French Campaign (or Fall Gelb) there were 349 Panzer IIIs (381 total inc. reserves), of which 135 were lost; and 280 Panzer IVs, of which 97 were lost. This page summarises the figures from the contemporary divisional organisational diagrams in table form. It shows that there were also 554 Panzer Is and 920 Panzer IIs, plus 154 command radio tanks (Befehlswagen), a few of which would have been Pz. IIIs and IVs.


 * The manufacturing schedule for the first major production series of the Panzer III, the Ausf. E, was meant to start in early 1938, but the adoption of a new, untested gearbox delayed production for over a year. This was the complex and initially very unreliable Maybach SRG 32 8 145, a semi-automatic, pre-selector transmission which replaced the tried and tested SSG 76 manual gearbox by Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen (ZF) fitted in the 70 or so pre-series models Ausf. A-D. There were two sets of problems with the SRG: basic design problems/faults down to Maybach; and assembly faults of the intricate mechanisms by the subcontractor, ZF. The first production Panzer III Ausf. E weren't delivered to their regiments until March–June 1939, a few months before the start of the Polish Campaign. Combat reports gathered up to March 1940 detail the technical faults. A decision to install ZF's SSG 77 manual gearbox in the Ausf H. wasn't made until the autumn of 1940. By 1941 the design and assembly problems had been ironed out, and the Maybach gearbox eventually gave reliable service in Panzer IIIs in both North Africa and Russia.


 * Production of the Panzer IV, begun in 1938, was not originally accorded a high priority; there were about 278 Pz. IVs available in May 1940, and the same number were made during the whole of 1940. The monthly production quota was set at 40 units from November 1940. On 1 July 1941 there were 531 Panzer IVs on hand; barely replacing the losses in Russia, there were only 552 units in April 1942.

Please feel free to incorporate any of this into the article. Cheers, MinorProphet (talk) 23:05, 23 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Sources

fall of france
what caused the fall of france 70.26.105.194 (talk) 18:57, 26 November 2022 (UTC)


 * One factor was that they left the ardennes to go and hep defend belgium, a region with heavy treeline and bumpy hills because they thought that Hitler couldn't penetrate the area with so many troops and tanks however, Hitler did penetrate his forces through the area and blasted through the french lines which French Commanders were caught veyr off guard by. 72.138.179.198 (talk) 17:55, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

BEF size
In the prelude section under 'Allies' it states that at the start of battle the BEF was 1.6 million men. Given the BEF was only 13 divisions that is clearly wrong. Firestar47 (talk) 10:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that seeing as 250,000 were taken home from Dunkirk and another 150,000+ emigre contingents from other ports it might be that the 1 in 1.6 million is wrong. Keith-264 (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe. Annoyingly all the books on my shelf give only the number of divisions. The number though is written in full so is unlikely a typing error. Firestar47 (talk) 11:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The number of 1.6 million men refers not to the BEF but to the total armed forces, territorial divisions and units in training included.--MWAK (talk) 14:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Prelude
It says that the french mobilised 5 million men but that only half served in units in the north. So where were the other half? Are we talking about the navy as well? I feel this needs clarification. Firestar47 (talk) 10:56, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, the text now states "France mobilised about one-third of the male population between the ages of 20 and 45, bringing the strength of its armed forces to 5,000,000" but this is a clear mistake. The male population of France numbered about twenty million in 1940 and about six million of these were between 20 and 45 years old.--MWAK (talk) 14:30, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well I've just been to my bookshelf, both books I checked gave the mobilization figure as 5 million so that bit seems right. Firestar47 (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Size of Allied Forces involved
(originally from Loic on AHF) "Pierre Le Goyet La défaite 10 mai-25 juin 1940 gives for Metropolitan France 1. may 1940

2 651 802 "aux Armées" (means the Front) 529 028 des formations du territoire (Interior) 675 386 Depôts et Centres d'Organisation (Interior) 75 638 Foreigners (RMVE & Légion in Métropolitan France, Polish & Czechoslovak Armies) 53 466 in the hospitals"

Overseas and Air forces aren't included in the above nor is naval. For the Belgians and Dutch, the wiki articles show 600,000-650,000 men and 280,000 men respectively. The BEF in France was 390,000 men. Luxembourg had 693. Even if we only go with the Front armies for the French and even then exclude the 150,000 French attributed to the Alps (and no airforces), go with the lower Belgian estimate, and ignore the RAF that totals to at least 3,770,000. Something is seriously wrong with the article. 47.220.25.18 (talk) 06:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have any written sources for your claims? Keith-264 (talk) 20:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)