Talk:Battle of Sufa

Not putting this page to draft.
my page should not be in draft, because i have fixed the sources to reliable ones. examples are times of israel and all-israel news. HumilatedGoan (talk) 11:24, 15 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @Wikishovel In light of the previous citation tag and my recent addition of information from a reputable source, such as the 'Times of Israel,' is it appropriate to consider the removal of the additional citation tag? HumilatedGoan (talk) 12:38, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Where did you read that the fighting was from 7 to 10 October? It says that three times in the article, but the sources don't confirm this. Wikishovel (talk) 14:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 2nd reference, says the post was published on the NIGHT of 9th October. Meaning that Israeli Forces had Recaptured Safu at 10th October. 115.186.141.58 (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The second reference says the post was published at 11:26 am, which is morning, on the 9th. We need to WP:Verify that fighting ended on 10 October, or remove the claim. Wikishovel (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw4HWa31zUI
 * In the video, it is discussed that Israel has gained control of a land, which hamas had captured, including the area known as Sufa. HumilatedGoan (talk) 15:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I've just watched that video, and didn't hear Sufa mentioned. Please post the time on the video where you heard Sufa. Wikishovel (talk) 15:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * They say that Israel has gain back control of Gaza border. Sufa is nearby the Gaza border which was captured by Hamas but gained control again by Israel. 2407:D000:F:9F5:9DCC:FD27:C412:4535 (talk) 15:47, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:Synthesis. Wikishovel (talk) 15:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * alright, the end date i assumed that ended on 10th because of gaza border control of Israel, why don't i have permission to edit this page? HumilatedGoan (talk) 07:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @HumilatedGoan
 * Pages in the Arab Israeli conflict "contentious topic" can only be edited by people with 500 edits. I'll put some info on your talk page. Irtapil (talk) 06:55, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah… maybe it wasn't that… Irtapil (talk) 06:57, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @2407:D000:F:9F5:9DCC:FD27:C412:4535
 * Gaza border is further west. Irtapil (talk) 07:49, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @115.186.141.58
 * That's not how "night of" works in English … or possibly more how time works … or possibly I'm just very confused. Irtapil (talk) 06:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)


 * According to the page's log, the page has been given extended confirmed protection, on the grounds of "Contentious topic restriction: WP:A/I/PIA". I think this protection has been given to all articles about the current war. Wikishovel (talk) 08:22, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2023
HumilatedGoan (talk) 08:18, 16 October 2023 (UTC) in the results you can use: Israeli victory
 * The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) successfully conducted a rescue operation, liberating more than 250 hostages.
 * That's a rather long way of rephrasing the current "Israeli victory, IDF rescues 250+ hostages", and the infobox is already a bit crowded. Wikishovel (talk) 08:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * put:
 * Israeli Victory
 * IDF Rescues 250+ hostages.
 * idk why but it feels neat. HumilatedGoan (talk) 08:28, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll leave the request open, another editor might agree with the proposed change. Wikishovel (talk) 08:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: I don't think there's much use creating a list there with only one item. Tollens (talk) 07:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @HumilatedGoan @Wikishovel @Tollens
 * I don't think that happened? Or did they have 500 at some stage? The BBC says a few escaped, but nowhere says 250?
 * Irtapil (talk) 07:01, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The news article looks dubious, but if that did happen he militants are more honest than I thought. On the first or second day one of the Marxist secular factions claimed the operation had taken a huge number of soldiers hostage, I thought they were just lying about the civilians, but maybe they briefly did have heaps of soldiers? Irtapil (talk) 07:48, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I personally have no idea. My only point here was from a formatting perspective – it appears that everyone else's here was as well. I see the line here hasn't been in the article for quite some time. Tollens (talk) 08:19, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Battle *may* still be ongoing
https://twitter.com/RassdNewsN/status/1717334871578734893?t=JRyaDte5BMn_CPvnQlu6ew&s=19

According to Palestinian media and several videos by eyewitnesses, the Al-Qassam brigades have reentered Sufa Kibbutz and battles involving combat helicopters are currently occurring. A.H.T Videomapping (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @A.H.T Videomapping
 * I know the sides often disagree about wars, but this one is just crazy?
 * Osama Hamdan said on a (probably uncitable) radio interview that they were still there a week later but other sources say two days.
 * Try Al Jazeera English, Al Jazeera Arabic, Times of Israel, Haaretz, Associated Press, and the Turkish one I'm forgetting except that it's "AA".
 * And there's a US American think tank Institute of Modern War that has a deranged amount of detail on these things.
 * How do you spell the place name in Arabic?
 * Irtapil (talk) 06:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @SaintPaulOfTarsus … since I won't be getting a reply from @A.H.T Videomapping by the looks of it (strike through didn't show on mobile site) and since you seemed to be trying to answer one of the questions.
 * Does your war nerd think tank have anything much on who was where at the beginning?
 * Irtapil (talk) 06:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Irtapil Believe you were searching for Anadolu Agency and the Institute for the Study of War. The tweet uses the spelling ص وفا. As for the alleged late October incursion into Sufa, my recollection is that it was only supported by dubious Twitter posts and a video on a bizarre Arabic-language TikTok clone. ISW had nothing, and I didn't think to look any further. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 06:57, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @SaintPaulOfTarsus
 * Thanks for my missing source names. I don't suppose you know if Anaolu Agency is better than TRT?
 * TRT send a bit "Erdoğan state media" iffy, not RT level terrible, but CGTN level iffy?
 * Nothing about late October? Or nothing from 7 October? Second seems weird. I should go digging myself.
 * The late October tweet seemed dubious, but I don't recall the whole thing being over in 36 hours either. Osama Hamdan seems moderately reliable, he's said a couple of things that seemed comletely crazy but turned out to be true.
 * Also, the page List of engagements during the Israel-Hamas war page seems a bit on fire lately.
 * Irtapil (talk) 08:02, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Gah, i can't spell for nuts, why can't we use the Arabic script… Irtapil (talk) 08:04, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Irtapil my friend, I really don't want to revert you, but with all due respect what you're doing with the PFLP and other factions is borderline WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. On what grounds can you justify including them in the infobox for this battle, simply because they made some statement about being "east of Khan Yunis"? Not to mention Sufa is almost directly south of that city. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 09:08, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @SaintPaulOfTarsus
 * Checking a map … south of Khan Younis is Kerem Shalom border crossing, but you are still right, Sufa is much more "South" than "East". I didn't realise the coast curves west that far north of the Egyptian boarder.
 * I agree I got way too over-enthusiastically speculative that week. I've made a few user-space pages now, for jotting down vague leads (pending a full story in reliable sources).
 * I've wanted to go back through my edits thoroughly, and tidy up a few things like that, based on feedback etc. but I have been kept too busy by another wiki-related issue lately.
 * If you find anything I've added anything else with zero refs, just delete it for me please. But do let me know, so I can copy it to my user space to finish later (for stuff that looks unfinished) up or possibly find similar edits that need improving (for stuff that was too speculative).
 * I don't recall adding anyone other than them as a beligerent without a ref? I got a carried away trying to work out where they'd been on 7 October when it was finally confirmed that they were one of the "other groups" with hostages.
 * But I assume it was ok to copy maps and coordinates from Sufa, Israel? Just copying from a location page to an event that happened there?
 * On the topic of which, do you know how to get a map working on this page? The Sufa, Israel page has the coordinates and maps, but the way they were displayed in the locations in Israel template doesn't work here. They are in the box, but only the number works, I couldn't work out how to make it show the map or location marker.
 * 09:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC) Irtapil (talk) 09:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hebrew- and Arabic-language translations in article
The Hebrew- and Arabic-language translations of the name of Kibbutz Sufa in this article appear to have been taken directly from the titles of the entries on the village in the Hebrew and (Egyptian) Arabic Wikipedias: he:סופה (קיבוץ) and arz:سوفا (مجلس اقليمى اشكول), respectively.

As such, they contain unnecessary parenthetical elements, such that the Hebrew text here reads "Sufa (kibbutz)," and the Arabic text reads "Sufa (Eshkol Regional Council)." Please remove. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 05:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @SaintPaulOfTarsus
 * Would the Egyptian spelling be right? It's near Egypt, but Wiki Masri would be Cairo. Spelling is often the same, but ar seems better than arz?
 * I think ar.wiki uses a Sod صوفا I remember thinking it was weird because if you put that back into Hebrew you get צופא which doesn't quite match, but Hebrew transliteration is a bit odd (e.g. "Khamas").
 * Irtapil (talk) 06:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Irtapil I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak to whether ص وفا or س وفا is the correct spelling. As for why Egyptian Arabic was used, I assume it's because the Standard Arabic article for the village didn't exist at the time of the edits. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 06:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @SaintPaulOfTarsus
 * Usual Arabic spelling is definitely sod not siin (first one). Egyptian wiki is a bit weird.
 * But I think I've worked out a possible explanation, I just remembered a conversation I had in a Yiddish language learning Facebook group, Yiddish uses phonetic spellings for Arabic, Hebrew uses more historical letter analogy so Hebrew would end up with צופא Kibbutz Tzufaa. I think it's a Yiddish (or Yiddish inspired) transliteration of the name of the original location in Egypt, then Egyptian Wiki just used standard transliteration as if it was Hebrew.
 * Obviously, it's completely un-citable, But while it's un-citeable, it makes the mismatch make sense enough that I'm even confident to just trust standard Arabic wiki, which I would recommend anyway because Egyptian wiki is at best is based on a colloquial dialect that might not use standard spelling and at worst is a bit patchy and has a few people doing prolific dubious translations (Google "Scots Wikipedia").
 * More importantly I've seen it on Al Jazeera Arabic. We can cite that if you want, but they don't call it a kibbutz, so that's complicated, I think they say settlement.
 * There is disambiguation page with the Kibbutz صوفا (إسرائيل) "Sufa (Israel)"  (they also don't call it a Kibbutz they call it مستوطنة في إسرائيل. which i think is "settlement in Israel"), and the  صوفا (سيناء) old location in Egypt, and  صوفا (قرية) the smallest page  is older than the Kibbutz page, and has me confused. the  صوفا (سيناء) old location in Egypt, and  صوفا (قرية) the smallest page  is older than the Kibbutz page, and has me confused.
 * But in conclusion = we should just trust the standard Arabic Wiki page about the Kibbutz.
 * The person getting WP:1RRed by a platypus below me in Arby reads Arabic much better I do if you want to ask them? Someone defending them mentioned they're one of the few Wiki English editors who do.
 * Irtapil (talk) 16:11, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * actually i found AJ using same word for all of them previous link called a few kibbutz transliterated i think. This does that for Be'eri etc. in the detailing, but all same name in subheading. Irtapil (talk) 16:16, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This also covers a missing one on or other list "During Operation “Al-Aqsa Flood,” the resistance also targeted the “Ofakim” settlement, which is one of the settlements considered outside the “Gaza envelope” and 16 kilometers from the Gaza Strip. Despite this, 10 resistance fighters were able to storm it and take settlers hostage, and a number of them were captured", it's in the blue zone in First few "Iran Update" maps. (Arabic sources put most Israeli place names in quotes, names changed in ~1948) Irtapil (talk) Irtapil (talk) 16:20, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Kibbutz page has "Its name is derived from the severe dust storms which occurred in the original settlement."
 * he: סופת חול
 * so my guess was wrong … so i cannot fathom WHY there's a sod … but I did thoroughly confirm there is one.
 * I should stop obsessing over one letter and check the page I'm avoiding checking.
 * Irtapil (talk) 16:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Merge
I think the all female tank battle belongs in this? There's currently a deletion discussion wanting to merge it with something less appropriate. Irtapil (talk) 06:31, 16 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @Irtapil Believe the deletion/merge discussions for the article you're referencing are now closed.
 * My view is that the combat in the outpost (described here in Battle of Sufa) and the combat involving the female armored unit (All-woman Israeli tank crew fight (2023)) are two distinct events which are not considered by RS to be part of a single "Battle of Sufa." (indeed, this "battle of" terminology is mostly WP:CIRCULAR)
 * For the sake of transparency, I also believe that this article (Battle of Sufa) doesn't meet WP:GNG and I plan to start a discussion to merge it into 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 07:11, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Videos sub-section
@Irtapil: Can you help me understand how Bearing Witness and Hamas training footage relate to the combat at Sufa? Thanks, SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 12:49, 20 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @SaintPaulOfTarsus I thought I moved that? I'll check. I got off topic but I thought I then moved it to a better location, but I have been rather distracted lately by a platypus sending me about a dozen talk page messages and threatening to take me to Arby… so i left a lot of messy edits, which then got mentioned in Arby… Irtapil (talk) 16:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Moved it, and added 5 citations to the cite needed i left there, and now fixing a broken citation in the original, all of which i might have already done if not for a platypus messaging me twice a day, with a radish adding their own page-long additions to it. Irtapil (talk) 17:43, 30 January 2024 (UTC)