Talk:Beachy Amish

Problems
This page has lots of problems. Foremost is the fact that the Beachy Amish and the New Order Amish are not the same thing.

Theological differences
There are three important differences between Beachy Amish and other Amish communities not mentioned in the article:

1. The Beachy Amish no longer shun people.

2. The Beachy Amish emphasize more individuality than other Amish do. This includes Bible study groups which are not permitted in other Amish communities because the Ordnung is seen as more important than individual interpretation of the Bible.

3. The Beachy Amish empasize salvation by faith instead of salvation by works.

As a result of 1-3 they became shunned by the other Amish communities.

I don't want to add this on my own to the article since my English is not good enough.--Niwi

Response
I have recently left an Amish/Mennonite Church - sometime called a Beachy Church. I would like to respectfully disagree with some of the above statements.

Statement 1

Some Beachy Church, do still shun people. Just not as strongly nor as obviously. I can personally testify to this, but would agree that it is not nearly the act of Shunning the Amish practice.

Statement 2

Is factual and accurate. But could be enhanced by acknowledgment that the bible study and Sunday school activities are a major distinction.

Statement 3

In principal this statement is true. In daily life the two, faith and works, go hand in hand. One can not have faith without works, as faith in God/Jesus will produce fruit (works). —Preceding unsigned comment added by AmishPhonebook (talk • contribs) 16:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Never heard of Beachy Amish
Just Amish and Mennonites surely in Lancaster county, Pennsylvania or Pennsylvania Dutch area. Scott 23:28:40, 2005-09-12 (UTC)
 * There are Beachy Amish in Lancaster County. Stettlerj.

---

Beachy Amish are not Amish, say what?

 * I have family that is Beachy Amish, what do you mean they are not Amish? Of course they are Amish. The Swartzendruber Amish split from the main Amish group also, does that mean they are not Amish? For one, Amish congregations are independent. There is no "One Amish Church" like there is one Catholic Church. So just because they split does not mean they are not Amish. The Eastern Pennsylvania Mennonite Conference split from the greater Mennonite Church, does that mean they are no longer Mennonites, of course they're still Mennonites?? - User:Stettlerj

Response
I have many friends that are Beachy Amish, including quite a lot that have separated from the Beachy Amish church and no longer fellowship with it. I agree with the poster above, wherein the Amish generally shun the Beachy Amish. In Arthur, Illinois, for example, this is certainly true. The Amish and Beachy Amish do not acknowledge each other's ministry, either. In many cases, the name is shifting towards Beachy Mennonite.

As examples, the Beachy Amish that I know practice the following:


 * Mixed seating during certain services
 * Have church houses
 * Meet weekly, not every two weeks
 * Allow the wearing of satin dresses for the ladies and darkly colored shirts for the young men
 * Have electricity
 * Have Sunday School
 * Have cars (without visible restrictions on color and type)
 * Have some very nice and very large homes

However, one thing that causes problems in discussions like this on the Beachy Amish is that there are a vast array of different churches among the Beachy Amish - and of all varying degrees of conservatism.

As a parting note, I know of an Amish family that became Beachy Amish and was shunned from their church because of it. DavidDouthitt

I agree that the Beachy Amish are closer to conservative Mennonites on most issues than they are to the Old Order Amish. They can be called an Amish-Mennonite group.

I believe I have already ran into Beachy Amish with weird sounding church names, etc. so you are surely right that each group has different rules, and different identities.


 * On the argument of shunning, I think that being shunned by the Amish for joining the Beachy Amish does not mean the Beachy Amish are not Amish. Although it is possible the Beachy Amish are trying to forget their Amish past, that is always possible. So you may be right that some dont consider themselves Amish anymore. However, about the shunning argument, a White-Top Amish will be shunned for joining a Lancaster County Amish, and I have even heard an ultra-conservative Amish claim that other Old Order Amish are not real Amish. So if we go by that definition, only the most ultra-conservative Amish are Amish. User:Stettlerj


 * Even though the Amish will shun someone who goes to a different Amish group, they all still retain the same faith and principles largely - the main differences will be those of practice. However, the Beachy Amish share nothing but the history (they split from the Amish) and the name.  In virtually all aspects, those principles that define the Amish and separate them from the Mennonite also separate the Amish from the Beachy Amish.


 * Just because the Old Order Amish shun the Beachy Amish doesn't mean the Beachy Amish aren't Amish. As has been noted, there is no One Amish Church like this is for Catholicism, and traditional Amish groups have been known to shun each other on the basis of what the rest of us would think are rather minor doctrinal issues (or not even doctrinal in the first place). It seems to me that most people who say Beachy Amish are not Amish are non-ethnic Amish/Mennonites making the based on simply what is visible. "Oh, hey drive cars, they can't be Amish" or the like. Half of my extended family are Beachy Amish, the other half attend "Mennonite" churches (mostly congregations form the old Western Ontario Amish Mennonite Conference which merged into what is now Mennonite Church Eastern Canada). And you know what the biggest difference is between me and my conservatively dressed relatives who still attend Beachy Amish congregations? Just that - how we dress. It is akin to arrogance, I think, for outsiders to tell us what we are not. The foods I cook, how I celebrate religious holidays, what I see as a "normal" wedding or funeral, the core of my faith, my personal cultural understanding of who I am - all that tells me I am Amish. Even though I am a modern computer geek. Bytor 10:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have beachy friends and they are lovely people,but very solemon.I am considering joining them.They are missionaries living in Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PoppyDadswell (talk • contribs) 15:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The Beachy people split from the Old Order beginning about a century ago. They held the same fundamental doctrinal positions, but with a more liberal approach in practical application. The Beachy movement is now divided into many subgroups itself, with some being very plain and simple to others who are almost assimilated into the surrounding culture. Some self-identify as a subgroup of Amish, others prefer Mennonite, many use the name "Amish-Mennonite" on their chapels, and others prefer no identification with either name. But the bottom line is that they were a split out of the Old Order Amish, and in the first following decades still dressed like the Old Order. Lots of nuance in all of that, which is hard for outsiders to see through. In general, the Beachy are very theologically close to the Old Order and the New Order. Mikeatnip (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Hey, @Mikeatnip, I have a couple of sources saying the Beach Amish aren't Amish, including this one from probably the foremost scholarly authority on the Amish and other Anabaptist groups, Donald Kraybill.
 * "The Beachy Amish and so-called Amish Mennonites are groups that emerged in the twentieth century from Amish roots. Despite their names and history, these churches lie outside the contemporary Amish orbit because their members drive cars and use a wide range of consumer technology, and few speak Pennsylvania Dutch." —valereee (talk) 10:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I've changed it back to not calling them Amish, as the person who wants to include something needs to show why something should be included. We'd need to see scholarly sources of Kraybill's prominence calling them Amish. —valereee (talk) 10:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's another authoritative reference, the Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online: "The Beachy Amish Mennonites are a conservative Anabaptist denomination with Old Order Amish origins." —valereee (talk) 11:04, 5 September 2021 (UTC)