Talk:Bernhard Crusell

new info on the horn concerto
I found some info regarding the horn concerto: The Swedish Royal Court Orchestra employed an outstanding quartet of wind players at the beginning of the nineteenth century. They were: Carl Anton Philipp Braun (1788-1835), oboe; Bernhard Henrik Crusell (1775-1838), clarinet; Johann Michael Friedrich Hirschfeld (1775-1841), horn; and Frans Preumayr (1782-1853), bassoon. All four players had duties as directors of music for various regiments. Crusell composed a horn concerto for Hirschfeld in 1813, most of which is now lost. However the first movement, in this version for solo horn and brass, has recently been discovered by the Swedish musicologist Åke Edenstrand. It was made by Frans Preumayr, Crusell's son-in-law, for the band of the Life Regiment's Dragoon Corps, of which he had been music director since 1835. The score states that it was completed on Palm Sunday morning in 1840. The soloist was probably Frans Müller (1812-1866), a precocious talent who had joined the band in 1822 at the age of ten, and became its bandmaster at the end of the 1840s. He was also a member of the Royal Orchestra from 1841 until his death. I found this at http://www.lgbe.co.uk/sleeve_notes.htm and need to work this into the article. brian stormen 14:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Crusell was hardly a foreigner
Although a foreigner, he rose to a prominent position in the Swedish music world.

When Crusell was born, Finland was still part of Sweden, at least Western Finland where Uusikaupunki is located, and Finns were in Sweden perceived to be "Swedes in the eyes of God" quite a long time even after 1809, when the whole of Finland was annexed to Imperial Russia. In the minds of his contemporaries, Crusell was hardly a foreigner as a Finn in Stockholm at that time.(A passer-by from Finland) 194.100.66.100 (talk) 17:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course. Seems an obvious Fennoman bias here. Someone should investigate the whole topic of Finland and its Swedish-speaking minority here on enwiki to see how far it extends and rewrite accordingly.


 * But that's for someone(s) who can invest as much effort in it as it may take. I cannot afford the risks of squabbling over the obvious or having too many edits undone. -Keinstein (talk) 17:02, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The same with Liszt and his German background, for that matter. And I can just wonder how much more. -Keinstein (talk) 17:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * More or less the same goes for these recent edits. As far as I understand, the question of his native language is an open one, and a politically infected one at that. Which language he kept his diaries in doesn't necessarily matter either, because this was when Nationalism came to the fore, the difference between "nation" and "language" was even less recognised than it is today, and much impetus to the Finnish language movement came in fact from Swedish-speaking Finns. If I am not too wrong, I suggest the problem be mentioned in the article, of course with the link to Swedish-speaking Finns. --Keinstein (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Crusell's alternate name
The following discussion was copied from User talk:Surfo --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The alternate version of Bernhard Crusell's name is taken from the bibliography in the Crusell article in New Grove 2, a credible source of information. For this reason, I am restoring the alternate name. I'm not sure he ever used it and unsure what language the alternate name is, so considering that, and your comment, I'm rewording the footnote with some qualifiers. Please take a look and please discuss here if you disagree with the new version. I do think it is important to include in the article that the different name has been used. I also found the book from the Grove bibliography listed in WorldCat and added two links. Anyway, thanks for your help. --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comment and for your interesting additions to the Cursell article. The name "Berndt Henric Crusellin" (which was said to be Finnish) caught my attention because of the last part "Crusellin". It seems a clear misunderstanding of the Finnish possessive Crusellin = Crusell's. "Berndt Henric" seems a possible alternate form when you consider that in the 18th century names were somewhat variable and even offical documents could give a person's name in slightly different forms. But anyway, "Bernhard Henrik Crusell" seems to be the only accepted, "normalized" form nowadays, both in Swedish and Finnish.
 * I did some searches in Finnish databases, and found no alternative for Crusell's (the composer's) last name. His grandfather's name is once quoted as "Henrik Kruselius", but another person quoted as "Henrich Crusell" might be the same person (both were bookbinders and lived in the same town).
 * The only source I found for the form "Berndt Henric Crusellin" is the book mentioned in the "Sources" of the article: "Berndt Henric Crusellin 150-vuotismuisto" by Helmer Winter. It is a proof that "Berndt Henric" has been used (don't know when or by whom), but "Crusellin" is just the possessive form of Crusell. So, "Berndt Henric Crusell" is a form to be included in a footnote, but "Crusellin" is a mistake. Thus, your footnote is OK if you remove the "-in" which is only a Finnish suffix, not part of the name. – Sorry for the inconvenience caused by my partly uninformed change. --Surfo (talk) 16:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I found in the pages of the Finnish Crusell Society ( http://www.crusell.fi/ ) an excerpt from his memoirs. There he describes his childhood referring to himself as "the 4-year old Berndt". So it seems he actually used this shorter form in some circumstances. I found nothing about "Henric", which seems just an alternative spelling of "Henrik". --Surfo (talk) 18:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Surfo, thanks for all the help! So, if I understand correctly, the possessive results from it being the 150th anniversary of his birth, so perhaps the title of Winter's book would be translated into English as Berndt Henric Crusell's 150th Anniversary? It seems possible that the librarians who put the two entries into OCLC were, like me, also unfamiliar with Finnish grammar, so failed to list the author correctly. Regarding "Berndt", quite a few entries in the OCLC are listed as "Crusell, Berndhard Henric även Berndt" so you seem to be right that these are fairly common alternative spellings. I'll change the footnote to reflect this. If you could provide an English translation (in parenthesis) of Winter's title, that would be great. Also I'm going to copy our discussion to the article Talk page. Thanks again! --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion was copied from User talk:Surfo --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Translate quote?
Can someone who knows Finnish please provide an improved translation of the following quote? The original Finnish is from here; for reference, an imperfect translation, already in the article and from here, is reproduced below. (Accessed 9 March 2010.)

"Hänen pienessä synnyinkaupungissaan oli vain yksi ainoa henkilö, joka harrasti musiikkia: eräs puotiapulainen, joka iltaisin puhalteli huvikseen huilua. Eräänä iltana nelivuotias Berndt istui kadulla selkä seinää vasten suunniltaan ihastuksesta kuullessaan sulosävelmiä.

Hänen vanhempansa, jotka olivat jo pitkään etsineet poikaa, toruivat häntä vakavasti, mutta tämä ei estänyt poikaa menemästä seuraavana iltana mielipaikalleen. Hän sai nyt tottelemattomuudestaan selkäänsä, mutta kun tästäkään ei ollut apua, hänet jätettiin "kärpäsensä" pariin luottaen siihen, että hän aina palaisi kotiin heti, kun huilu vaikeni..."

Current translation: There was only one person in his little town of birth, who had interest in music: a boutique helper, who sounded a flute for his pleasure. Four years old Berndt sat on a street one night, back against the wall mesmerized by the enchantment of the beauteous tunes. His parents, who had looked for their son for a long time, chided him solemnly, but this didn't stopped [sic] the boy from returning to his favorite spot on the next night. This time he was beaten for his disobedience, but when they noticed even that didn't helped [sic], they left him for his "buzz" in trust he would return back home, when the flute went silent... If you add a new translation to the article, please change the footnote to point to the original Finnish web page and say something like "provided English translation" in the edit history. (Or you can suggest something here, and I can put it in the article, if you prefer.) Thanks! --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I tried Google translate, which didn't work too well overall, but did suggest a few words which might be appropriate: There was only one person in his native village who had an interest in music: a shop assistant, who played a flute for fun. One night, four-year old Berndt was sitting on a street, back against the wall, mesmerized by the enchantment of the delightful tunes. His parents, who had been looking for their son for quite a while, scolded him severely, but this did not prevent the boy from returning to his favorite spot on the next night. This time he was beaten for his disobedience, but when they saw that even that didn't help, they left him to his "high", confident that he would come back home, when the flute went silent... --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think your last translation is quite good. I am reluctant to edit the article myself, because English is not my native language. Perhaps you'll find some useful details in my translation, when you edit the final version:


 * "In his little town of birth there was only one person who had an active interest in music: a shop assistant who would be heard in the evenings playing the flute for his own amusement.  One night, the four-year old Berndt was sitting in the street, leaning against a wall, filled  with delight and admiration for the sweet melodies. His parents, who had been looking for their son for a long time,  scolded him severely, but this could not stop the boy from returning to his favourite spot the next evening. This time he got a beating for his disobedience, but as it was to no avail, they left him  to his "craze", confident that he would come back home as soon as the flute went silent..."


 * Now, comparing the translations, I thing your "mesmerized by the enchantment of the delightful tunes" is quite good. The Finnish words "suunniltaan ihastuksesta" could possibly be tranlsated with something like "on top of the world with admiration for" but I'm not sure if that is an acceptable expression. --Surfo (talk) 09:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Surfo, Your English seems excellent to me. The words "mesmerized by the enchantment" came from the Crusell Society translation (which is the current one in the article and quoted verbatim from their English web page) and "delight" came from the Google translation. I had been thinking, just from reading the Society translation, that "entranced by" might work, but your suggestion of "on top of the world with admiration for" seems very idiomatic. I could imagine it as a show-tune lyric. And I think your choice for the special word "craze" seems perfect in this context. In any case, your translation must be preferable to mine, since I know absolutely nothing of Finnish. But the auxiliary verb "would" in "who would be heard" doesn't seem quite right. How about "who could be heard"? Would that work there? So, what do you think of the following: In his little town of birth there was only one person who had an active interest in music: a shop assistant who could be heard in the evenings playing the flute for his own amusement. One night, the four-year old Berndt was sitting in the street, leaning against a wall, on top of the world with admiration for the sweet melodies. His parents, who had been looking for their son for a long time, scolded him severely, but this could not stop the boy from returning to his favourite spot the next evening. This time he got a beating for his disobedience, but as it was to no avail, they left him to his "craze", confident that he would come back home as soon as the flute went silent... --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems perfect to me. -- By the way, could you consider adding a line about the Crusell Week in Uusikaupunki, a yearly music festival dedicated to woodwind instruments? See http://www.crusellviikko.com/index.php?lang=en --Surfo (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

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