Talk:Black panther

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 January 2019 and 17 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kamari Bell.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Picture
Is the panther on the picture a jaguar or a leopard? Maxim Razin 17:49, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Looks like a leopard. Jaguars tend to be beefier.

You cannot judge a feline by its weight, their weights vary by sex and Jags range from 68-136 kilos, Leopards 32-130 kilos, (Tajemnice Zwierzat, Koty Duze, Srednie i Male -1996 pgs 12-13) so weight is not a good determinant of species in this case. Look at the pattern of the rosettes, Jaguars have large round incomplete circles often with a dot in the middle (a story by Kipling in Just so Stories describes how the spots got there, you should check it out) Leopards have neater, smaller circles with no dot inside them. Using this the animal in the photo looks to me like a Jaguar, since the rosette on the shoulder is disproportionately large but i think the photographer would know best, since 3/4 of the animal is out of the shot. -Katarzyna 1984 21:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC).


 * That Just So Story was "How the Leopard Got His Spots". The Painted Jaguar appeared in "The Beginning of the Armadilloes".  Sad, I know...  Richard New Forest (talk) 13:33, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 05:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Pl add infobox
Please add infobox like other animal articles and indicate conservation status.--Indianstar 14:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC) '''Conservation Status Info Box is unnecessary, because the article is about three distinct species. --Steveprutz 15:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC) '''

myth
It is a myth that there mother often rejects them at a young age because of their colour. In actuality, they are more temperamental because they have been inbred to preserve the coloration. The poor temperament has been bred into the strain as a side-effect of inbreeding. It is this poor temperament that leads to problems of maternal care in captivity as the proximity of humans stresses the mother. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.230.245.21 (talk • contribs).

image mistake
The "black jaguar cubs" image on this page are black leopards. The description of the image (on the sub-page of the image) says that they are leopards, not jaguars. On the main page the naming is incorrect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.98.165.50 (talk • contribs).

status as a cryptid
It seems to me the writer has misunderstood cryptozoology. Something being a cryptid does not mean that the animal does not exist. I feel the words that suggest this in the Melanistic Cougars section should be rephrased. If no one objects I'll do it myself next time I look at the page.


 * Read Wikipedia's definition of "cryptid": cryptid "Cryptid . . . is a term which is used in cryptozoology to refer to a creature whose existence has been suggested but lacks scientific support." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.147.123 (talk) 03:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Remember that WP is based on referenced facts, so the most we can do with cryptids is say things like "some people believe that", "it has been claimed that" or other weasel words. Yes, they may exist, but we can only go on the published evidence that they exist.  Richard New Forest (talk) 13:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I would object. Personally, I think the top summary paragraph supports black cougars TOO much :(although the latter sections are better at stating no substantiated evidence exists).--Paddling bear (talk) 17:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Paddling bear is correct, all the information on melenistic Cougars should be completely dropped out and perhaps a footnote at the end of the article, or better a link to the Cryptozoology article. Rediculous that an encyclopedia should contain information about sightings of a cryptids in places where NORMAL Cougars are declared extinct. Watchwolf49z (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Tidy up
Wopudl it be possible for someone who understands matters of species, genus, family etc please co-ordinate the entries in wiki on the big cats. For instance: is Puma a genuine genus or is it a species or. . . The entries on Lions, Leopards, Jaguars, Tigers, and then Cougars, Leopards, Panthers etc (?) should be harmonised IMHO. Thanks :) LookingGlass (talk) 00:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Puma" is one of the common names for the Cougar, whose scientific name is Puma concolor. "Puma" is both a species common name and a genus. There is no confusion on our part. What do you find confusing about the other articles? - UtherSRG (talk) 01:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Both of you are correct: Cougar, Mountain Lion, Panther, Puma, Painter are all common names for Puma concolor. We should pick one and use it thoughout the article ... or as I've stated above, just drop all references to Cougars, as it's totally confusing to include this "mythological" animal. Watchwolf49z (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

History Channel
The History Channel has a special on this subject that may offer up some more citations for the ideas of Black Panthers in North America —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.163.70 (talk) 01:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

In FL, people often report black panthers only to find out when they get closer that they were river otters. These dark brown animals have long tails and can be ~5 feet long. As they slink across roads, particularly in low light and from a distance, they look they way people think a panther might slink acros the road. Another source is black bobcats, since people are often poor judges of size, particularly at a distance.--Paddling bear (talk) 17:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Black Leopards always breed true
How can this be possible? Using a simple allele model, if the melanism is dominant, than two black panthers could be Cc and Cc. They thus could have an offspring that is cc, the recessive "normal" spotting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.233.245.107 (talk) 06:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it's OK – your reasoning is exactly right, but what the article actually says is that black leopards always breed true, because in them the black is recessive. It is slightly confusing, as it says it in the section about black jaguars. How can we improve this?  Richard New Forest (talk) 18:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Panthers known commonly as "Cougars" in NA? What?
I removed the two sources and the line that panthers are known as "cougars" in NA. Also because the sources didn't even have anything to do with either claims, so I'm unsure why they were up in the first place. Of course if someone can find a source which explains that they are commonly referred to as "cougars", feel free to throw it back up. -- 204.112.156.41 (talk) 08:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The statement is not that panthers are known as cougars, it is that "panther" is used to refer to cougars. This is discussed at length in the second reference you removed, the last four paragraphs of which discuss the Florida Panther e.g. "First of all, the Florida Panther is the smallest of the cougars." I'll restore the section you deleted. NebY (talk) 10:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this may need to be rewritten somehow. I have never in my nearly 26 years in North America heard "panther" to refer to any cat that lives naturally in N. America. The term is always used to refer to the large, black cats of Asia. See Bagheera from the Jungle Book, our only exposure to the animal. At the very least, this is true about Texan usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.147.123 (talk) 03:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What about the Florida panther...? Richard New Forest (talk) 13:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Odd as it sounds to me too, in FL, and other southeastern states, cougars have been referred to as panthers, even the tawny colored ones (it's not just for black panthers).--Paddling bear (talk) 17:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In the West, where Cougars actually live, it is always correct to refer to Cougars as "Panthers", though it's corruption "Painter" is more common, mostly because that's what Hoss Cartwright called them in the TV show "Bonanza" [grin] Watchwolf49z (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Melanistic leopards vandalism
Could some one please fix this childs handy work? I would but I'm afraid I don't know enough about the subject to repair it, I don't know what facts were changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.40.81.149 (talk) 16:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Panthers mating with feral domestic cats
Under Reports of black panthers in Australia, the statement "It has been suggested that the panthers mated with feral domestic cats" is rediculous. I propose deleting it. Ryanwiki (talk) 10:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you saying that it's ridiculous that they should do it, or that people should suggest that they do? It is indeed ridiculous that they should mate (let alone produce young), but the statement says that people have suggested that it's happened, and this seems perfectly possible, as people are capable of believing many impossible things, like the Red Queen.  The statement needs refs, and I tagged it for that in October – no ref has been forthcoming, so we could delete or at least heavily thin the whole para.  Might be worth having a look for refs first though.  Richard New Forest (talk) 11:00, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess I mean both. I've never heard anyone raise the idea, and I think most of my countrymen would consider it childish. However, I accept there might be a reference out there somewhere.Ryanwiki (talk) 10:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Frequency of the Variation
Does anyone know approximately what percentage of each species is born black in the wild? -Agur bar Jacé (talk) 22:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

"Panthers are also notorious for residing in the woodlands of New Hampshire."
This statement feels like nonsense tagged onto the end of a paragraph in the section about panthers in North America —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wcbpolish (talk • contribs) 21:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Black Jaguars smaller?
Are black Jaguars - just like black panthers - smaller than spotted ones?217.94.194.65 (talk) 16:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 09:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Black panthers in North Africa
Alfred Edward Pease spoke of large, powerful panthers in the temperate region of the Atlas Mountains in North Africa. Leo1pard (talk) 10:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

undiscussed page move
User:I am RedoStone: please explain WHY you moved this page without ANY prior discussion and consent of other contributors. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:48, 12 December 2019 (UTC) 1) The title does NOT need capitalisation, in no other page about an animal is the 2nd word capitalised. 2) This page exists since spring 2002, and in all these 17+ years it has always been clear that it is about the animal. 3) You did still not explain your reasons for NOT discussing this move, which is the usual way to go in regards to such looong existing pages. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:52, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Whoops, sorry. I am RedoStone (talk) 17:56, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The page needed capitalisation, and it needed distinguishing that this was the animal and not the Marvel character. I am RedoStone (talk) 17:58, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The move is inappropriate. There is no need and the new title violates some Wikipedia guidelines. It should be reverted.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 20:37, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jts1882! To revert the move may need the intervention of an admin, as the old page title will probably have to be cleared first for a technical move. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 21:43, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

What is a black panther?
I think the opening phrase of the lede is wrong: "A black panther is the melanistic colour variant of any Panthera ...". It isn't supported by the reference given. Black panther applies to any large black (melanistic) cat. While I've never seen it used for lions or tigers, it has oftn being used to describe black puma sightings. Even though no black pumas have been confirmed, the term has been used widely and is consistent with use of panther as a common name for the puma, which used to be much more common.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 12:41, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Correct is without doubt that Eizirik et al. (2013) do not use the term 'black panther' at all. So we got to find a source with the broader definition as you propose. I remember to have read that this term was initially used ONLY for black leopards by 19th century hunters. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:43, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * That may be true, but it might also be that 19th century hunters had not encountered black jaguars yet. Firejuggler86 (talk) 11:59, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Feline ?
A panther is clearly NOT a feline, see which species are members of this subfamily: Felinae. It is without any doubt a member of the subfamily Pantherinae, hence a pantherine. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Pantherinae is a subfamily within the family Felinae, so they should be accepted within the category Feline color morphs in my opinion. But I am willing to defer if a consensus is reached.  Grey joy talk 07:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Your assumption is incorrect : both are subfamilies of the Felidae. See also above mentioned int links – pages that contain the resp. definitions, descriptions and lists of member species. If you create a category named 'Felid morph colour', I will not have any objection to include this page in this one. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected, my mistake.  Grey joy talk 07:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Please go ahead and change the category 'Feline morph colour' to 'Felid morph colour', and then the pages about cat morphs can be collated there. Lets be consistent in use of terms. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately feline has at least two meanings. Even if we accept it as the common name for Felinae, this can be used narrowly for the sister group of Pantherinae or more broadly for all conical toothed cats, in which case it consists of tribes Felini and Pantherini (including leopards and jaguars). Palaeontologists tend to prefer the latter, while people studying extant cats mostly use the former. In English usage feline is also often used for all cats, while felids is a more technical term. At least in this case the category can unambiguously use felid. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 10:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As already mentioned above, I think we should be consistent in use of terms throughout ALL pages about cats. And since we defined Felinae as EXcluding pantherine cats, it will be much more appropriate to create a category named Felid morph colour, so that the tiger, lion, and other Panthera morphs fit in. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 11:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking at category:felid morphs and its sparse population, is any further subdivision needed? category:Feline color morphs (1 P) and category:Tiger color morphs (3 P) don't seem particularly useful. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 07:24, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I asked for deleting Felid color morphs, as I sorted entries > felid morphs. Re : Tiger color morphs, I agree that these can also be sorted to felid morphs and then cat be deleted. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Lede distribution
OK, you guys are taking this way out of hand. How do you not know that there are leopards in European Russia? And also, the statement is just about the leopard's distribution in general; I know there have been no melanistic specimens in the Caucasus, but that's irrelevant when talking about the leopard's range as a whole. Ddum5347 (talk) 18:03, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Take your repeated revisions of the sentences in lede to the talk page, please. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:51, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Gladly. I'm trying to fix the sentence so it's not as grammatically awkward as the one we have now, and yet you revert everything I do, stating it's unnecessary. I'm starting to believe this has nothing to do with that. Ddum5347 (talk) 16:51, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There is nothing to fix in a sentence that starts with 'They' like any other understandable sentence. You are the one who repeatedly revise it, and that is indeed not necessary. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:51, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We'll see then. Ddum5347 (talk) 18:02, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Source confusion
you claim that source has no mention of black panthers anywhere. Then why is it in the article? Despite the fact that it clearly mentions panthers on pages 55 and 56. you're just being hilariously stubborn at this point. Ddum5347 (talk) 22:01, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * NONE of the leopards reported by Pease (1913) in the Atlas mountains was BLACK. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 22:10, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Then what else could he possibly mean by "panther"? He straight up says: "...great dark panthers of North Africa..." What else could he be talking about?   feel free to comment on this. Ddum5347 (talk) 22:15, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A panther or a 'dark panther' is not necessarily black. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 22:21, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have any evidence to back that up? As far as I know, a black panther constitutes all melanistic forms of the jaguar and leopard, no matter the shade. Ddum5347 (talk) 22:25, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Seems to me that yes, the "panthers" in that book are what we would now call "black panthers", even without specifically being described as black. However - I don't think we should base any statements of fact in this regard on an author who is totally sure that panthers definitely are not leopards, and seems quite happy to report all kinds of hearsay. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 00:07, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair point. Just seems weird that the source stayed up until I added information from it, then it was swiftly deleted. Very curious. Ddum5347 (talk) 00:17, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's because you and BhagyaMani appear to be locked into some kind of mutual blood pact of stalking the hell out of each other. I honestly can't tell who is leading and who is trailing, but if this doesn't blow up into more high drama before long, I'm several Dutchmen. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 01:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Elmidae's comment ... "panthers" in that book are what we would now call "black panthers"... : the words 'panther' and 'leopard' were both used for normally spotted leopards at the time, the former in particular by 'sport hunters'; lots of hunting stories by colonial officers in India. But also Pocock used 'panther' when describing leopard skins that were NOT black. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:09, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Just look into the history of THIS and other pages to see who follows on everybody's heels. I took this to a test a while ago + was followed by Ddum5347 on 20 pages at intervals of just 1 (!) to less than 30 mins within less than an hour. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:09, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Consider the fact that we have the same pages on our watchlists. Ddum5347 (talk) 14:41, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Panther can be used for any leopard, so definitely shouldn't be taken to mean black panther, even though it often (usually?) does refer to the melanistic forms of leopard and jaguar. Peace (who doesn't seem a particularly reliable source, with his talk of cowardly hyaenas) doesn't consider the "great dark panthers of North Africa and the common leopard" to be the same animal. My first through was that his dark panther is a black panther, but now I'm not so sure. In Goldsmith & Brown's History of the earth and animated nature the term panther is used for larger forms of old world spotted cat compared to the smaller leopard of Senegal. Again this is not a great source as the clouded leopard, puma and jaguar are considered types of tiger. Both are anedotal rather than scientific in approach. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 11:58, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Link mix up
Following the "Rhino and Lion Nature Reserve, Kromdraai" link in the text "Markings on a female black leopard at the Rhino and Lion Nature Reserve, Kromdraai" below the third image takes you to the wikipedia for white lions, specifically the segment about their breeding and genetics. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_lion#Breeding_and_genetics) I assume this is a mix up and a wiki page needs to be created for the Rhino and Lion Nature Reserve in Kromdraai as I didn't seem to be able to find one when I looked. 46.239.210.117 (talk) 21:59, 21 May 2023 (UTC)