Talk:Blackbeard/Archive 7

Reference/Citation
What is the reference/citation for the following sentence (from the New Providence section): so much so, that at that time it became known as the 'Pirates' republic'. Whoever did this article please add a reference/citation for this section. Adamdaley (talk) 06:13, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It was added in the last few months, it certainly wasn't placed there by me. I will remove it. Parrot of Doom 09:07, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2014
Category:American pirates

24.165.80.219 (talk) 00:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. He was an, not an  as best as I can tell...  Please establish a consensus to add to that category. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 00:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

About "Enlargement of Teach's fleet"...
Isn't the term "fleet" a misnomer here? He commanded what, two or three ships at once? I think that the correct term in that case would be "flotilla". 24.50.236.140 (talk) 13:23, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2015
Category:Nautical lore

24.165.80.219 (talk) 01:24, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  Edgars2007  (talk/contribs) 06:36, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I added this category. Liz Read! Talk! 16:40, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Caption
Caption in flag image refers to the image of Death holding an hourglass as "...a skeleton spearing a heart, while toasting the devil."

It's clearly an hourglass symbolising the fleeting existence of human life.

The article on the Jolly Roger cites the Weekly Journal or British Gazetteer on the flag: It had in it the Portraiture of Death, with an Hour-Glass in one Hand, and a Dart in the other, striking into a Heart, and three Drops of Blood delineated as falling from it. Sanderke2 (talk) 15:56, 15 July 2015 (UTC)Alex
 * I don't think the provenance of the flag pictured is known. It may be recreation based on written descriptions. So we should be careful about drawing conclusions from the image.  ApLundell (talk) 02:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2015
Please change "western coast of Florida" to "eastern coast of Florida". The 1715 plate fleet wrecked off of Vero Beach, which is on the east coast. Thanks

Karasdj (talk) 23:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Cannolis (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, the source used says the western coast, but this would seem to be a mistake so the correction is fine. Parrot of Doom 09:23, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Modern View
The entire modern view section sounds a little too casual for a Wikipedia article- just at a glance, I thought I was reading some enthusiasts report rather than an encyclopedia entry. I don't know, is that style of writing normal?Pharkryi (talk) 17:57, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

1680 Birthdate
Can we actually confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.164.154 (talk) 04:29, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Nope. Parrot of Doom 15:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Fate of Blackbeard's skull?
In 1870 John F Watson Claimed that Blackbeard's skull had been made into a drinking cup https://books.google.com/books?id=0A6RDCLr29AC&pg=PA221&dq=John+F+Watson+on+Blackbeard's+skull&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf_auitffKAhXGJx4KHQ0HBAcQ6AEINzAD#v=onepage&q=John%20F%20Watson%20on%20Blackbeard's%20skull&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.87.37 (talk) 14:04, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2016
Category:18th-century pirates

76.88.107.122 (talk) 21:50, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 22:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Royal Navy
The article doesn't make it clear enough (other than the HMS designation) that it was a group of Royal Navy sailors pursuing Blackbeard. This was uncommon for the Carolinas as most pirate hunting missions were handled by local militias. Can we get some clarification on that please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.177.236.95 (talk) 08:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Johnson
Much of the accepted history of Blackbeard has been drawn from Johnson's book, which has NOT been proven a reliable source. Primary sources, including typically genealogical, are more than adequate to fill this need. Quest for Blackbeard contains a re-examination of such sources, including admiralty documents, court records, etc. There are examination of French documents not formerly translated that are also pertinent to this history. Baylus Brooks (talk) 20:37, 26 November 2016 (UTC) Baylus Brooks
 * I'm pretty sure that of the material I've read which references Johnson's book, the authors are similarly dismissive of its reliability. It's fine to use primary sources here to provide quotations (eg, "such and such said x", but to arrive at any sort of conclusions from those sources is the job of historians, not Wikipedians.  If you want to argue the merits of historians' work, that's another matter. Parrot of Doom 11:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

new section
It's probably worthwhile to break the mentions of Blackbeard in popular culture to it's own section.

--Patbahn (talk) 05:39, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * There's already a separate article Blackbeard_in_popular_culture. Any pop culture mentions that don't significantly contribute to our understanding of Blackbeard or his legacy should already be there and not in this article. ApLundell (talk) 16:50, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2017
Date of birth cannot be correct as it says he died before he was born. Is this a typo? 79.67.227.59 (talk) 20:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Where do you see this?  JTP (talk • contribs) 21:03, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

'Genealogical research' is highly disputed
The note that Blackbeard served on a confirmed RN ship is contested, and should be listed as such — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.177.238.56 (talk) 05:00, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Black Sails
Edward Teach is a recurring character in the TV Series Black Sails. It would seem relevant to mention this in the popular culture elements. --Patbahn (talk) 03:11, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It is currently mentioned at the end of the modern view section.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:26, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

"Genealogical Research"
The edit made 23 October 2017 involved the removal of:

Although little is known about his [Blackbeard's] early life, he was probably born in Bristol, England. Recent genealogical research indicates his family moved to Jamaica where Edward Thatch, Jr. is listed as being a mariner in the Royal Navy aboard HMS Windsor in 1706...

This came from "Blackbeard Reconsidered: Mist's Piracy, Thache's Genealogy" and was published by the North Carolina Historical Publications... after first being published as “Born in Jamaica, of Very Creditable Parents” or “A Bristol Man Born”? Excavating the Real Edward Thache, “Blackbeard the Pirate” in North Carolina Historical Review of July 2015. As a peer-reviewed journal, I feel this was more than adequate for professional needs.

There was a remark about "genealogical research" being questionable. If it is performed by professionals in the field, genealogical research is perfectly acceptable and is often used by historians, but there is more: the author of this article was a graduate of the Maritime Studies Program at ECU, and associated with many of the nautical archaeologists currently working on the QAR. He was not a novice at maritime history.

Furthermore, the citations given for Edward Thache's service aboard HMS Windsor are more than adequate. See http://bcbrooks.blogspot.com/2017/06/eureka-blackbeard-on-hms-windsor.html for an actual photo of a pay record showing "Edward Thatch," a perfectly acceptable phonetic variation on the name. See also the deed showing Edward Thache as a mariner aboard HMS Windsor in 1706: http://baylusbrooks.com/index_files/Page613.htm

I respectfully request that this edit be undone... SC9370176CEC (talk) 11:35, 16 May 2018 (UTC) SC9370176CEC
 * There is nothing wrong genealogical research done right. However WP has strict sourcing rules and the text above would require a reputable source (in the WP sense) and at least at first glance Baylus Brooks personal websites or blogs don't qualify as such. This is not really about being a novice or not and does not all implies that Brooks is not qualified, but rather that the bar to be considered a reputable source in WP can be rather high at times (depending on the context). For historic topics that often requires the author to be a professional (university) academic/historian (in particular in the case of blogs and websites) or better the source to be a publication in a peer reviewed academic journal or a (non self published) book with a good reputation/reviews.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:44, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

So, you're telling me that "Blackbeard Reconsidered: Mist's Piracy, Thache's Genealogy," published by North Carolina Historical Publications, of North Carolina Department of Cultural Resources is NOT a professional publication?!! Kevin Duffus is self-published (Looking Glass Publications is his own brand) and not even a professional historian (he got a bachelor's in journalism and became a videographer at WRAL - he's at best an amateur historian), yet he is highly regarded as a "pirate authority." At least Mr. Brooks has a professional degree in history and is also a professional genealogist with 35 years experience. I believe your standards are highly biased and one-sided. SC9370176CEC (talk) 05:31, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm telling you what I've said above and said nothing whatsoever about Duffus. However Duffus currently doesn't be used as a source for the article but is merely listed under further reading. I haven't researched the Duffus, but of course do the same guidelines apply to him (although a listing under further reading is not quite the same as being used as a source). If he is indeed an author without a particular reputation on the subject and his book is self published it probably should be removed from the further reading section. --Kmhkmh (talk) 04:22, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * P.S.: Duffus' book got reviewed in The North Carolina Historical Review, Vol. 86, No. 3 (JULY 2009), pp. 339-341 (JSTOR). My conclusion from that review is that the book is not suited as source but may be listed under further reading. However if somebody wants to remove from there, then I'll have no objections.--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:45, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

[Untitled]
The first paragraph contains a good deal of old info from "A General History" which has pretty much been found by professional historians today to be wrong. Hornigold and Thache (proper spelling) used two sloops of 8 guns and 90 men each - equal in size - Thache was apparently NOT Hornigold's pupil, nor did Stede Bonnet ever serve in a "fleet" with Thache and Hornigold. This comes from the Henry Timberlake deposition (17 Dec 1716, 1B/5/3/8, 212-3, Jamaican Council Minutes, Jamaican National Archives)master of the Lamb, who was captured by both Hornigold and Thache. Thache also was from a wealthy Jamaican family and a veteran of Queen Anne's War on a Royal Navy vessel. See Quest for Blackbeard, chapter 8: "HMS Windsor: Flagship of the West Indian Fleet." See also "Edward Thatch" pay record in National Archives of London, ADM 33/267, Ship’s Pay Book: Windsor, 1 Jul 1705-30 Jun 1708, Entry “448”. SC9370176CEC (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Blackbeard's name in the article text
The article title and sub articles use the name "Blackbeard", but the article text uses "Teach". This practice is generally not followed in the article's sources and one (Perry) holds that "Thatch" was a more common name attributed to him at the time. Any reasons why the text should use a far less common questionable "surname" and not the common name of this figure? —  AjaxSmack 01:18, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I believe the answer would be because while his nickname is Blackbeard, and that's typically how most people know him by today, his legal name is Edward Teach (the article itself explains that while the spelling varies, "Teach" is the most commonly used in contemporary records). Wikipedia's MOS:SURNAME appears to hold here (as it does elsewhere, for example Calico Jack, where the article uses Rackham), specifically:


 * "For people well known by one-word names, nicknames, or pseudonyms, but who often also use their legal names professionally—e.g., musician/actors André Benjamin ("André 3000"), Jennifer Lopez ("J.Lo"); doctor/broadcaster Drew Pinsky ("Dr. Drew") – use the legal surname"


 * His nickname was not given him until, at the absolute earliest, he was only a year from dying (Bostock's deposition in Dec 1717, with Teach dying in Nov 1718) and would not be popularized until seven years after his death, with Johnson's book in 1724. Therefore, throughout all but a fraction of his entire life and career, he would have been known as Edward Teach, not Blackbeard. Vyselink (talk) 03:17, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Also, only one of the sub-sections uses "Blackbeard" as it's heading, and that one is specifically in relation to the Blackbeard nickname. One uses Teach, and the others use no name at all.Vyselink (talk) 03:25, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Flag of Blackbeard
The new article Flag of Blackbeard has information which conflicts with this article, which presents the purported flag of Blackbeard as factual. Most popular (i.e non-authoritative) sources repeating this claim such as like Mental Floss reference Fox 2015, which although self-published appears to come from an authority. Relevant sources include the following below: --Animalparty! (talk) 20:41, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2019
rgwjouiahlrohroshghreuohghrwas phwuhgrhgruhgorghrhv;gfcvbfgbvrhgruwhgrfghkhgdkhglsrekghgzhlgzlkdgjhfjfzkghrugzkdhdruhgrosh yjdytjyjytdjyhgcyjghjytdjytjdyrjdjyrdjydjrjysjyrjsyjryyjy 2600:1700:C240:7F90:9888:11B6:AB7F:1330 (talk) 02:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)zgdjthyj


 * ❌ Tempting, but I don't think this is quite what we're looking for. ApLundell (talk) 02:18, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Blackbeard's supposed non-violence
The article currently claims:

Teach was a shrewd and calculating leader who spurned the use of force, relying instead on his fearsome image to elicit the response that he desired from those whom he robbed. Contrary to the modern-day picture of the traditional tyrannical pirate, he commanded his vessels with the consent of their crews and there is no known account of his ever having harmed or murdered those whom he held captive.

The passage contains no references, which would be okay for the intro if these claims were also made in the article further down and referenced there. Alas, all I can find on the matter are the statements of Peter Leeson:

Economist Peter Leeson believes that pirates were generally shrewd businessmen, far removed from the modern, romanticised view of them as barbarians.[100]

And the quote: We normally think about pirates as sort of blood-lusting, that they want to slash somebody to pieces. [It's probably more likely that] a pirate, just like a normal person, would probably rather not have killed someone, but pirates knew that if that person resisted them and they didn't do something about it, their reputation and thus their brand name would be impaired. So you can imagine a pirate rather reluctantly engaging in this behavior as a way of preserving that reputation. Peter Leeson[100]

The quote and the referenced interview provide sourcing for Leeson's view (view, not undisputed fact) that pirates in general were rational entrepreneurs who preferred not killing the people they robbed, and that they used intimidation to secure non-resistance. Leeson also says Blackbeard was very good at that and mentioned that "according to at least one pirate historian, Blackbeard didn't kill a single man".

Note that's one historian's view, not simply undisputed fact. Also, this WP article itself mentions acts of violence by Blackbeard (and I wonder if "violence" is not a better word than "force" since intimidating another ship to surrender, with weapons in hand, is already an act of force. There is absolutel nothing about pirate captains commanding "with the consent of their crews".

Also, Leeson's view on the matter already does presuppose what this WP article likes to denigrate as "the modern-day picture of the traditional tyrannical pirate" - this image is actually the means by which pirates - according to Leeson - achieved surrender without striking a blow. But it also meant (according to Leeson in the long quote), when push came to shove, that they had to strike when resisted or challenged.

PS. The wording in one instance is also a bit weasely. The article says: there is no known account of his ever having harmed or murdered '''those whom he held captive'''."

The line might be technically correct (or maybe not) but it leaves the reader with the impression left to the reader is that he IN FACT never harmed anyone. The two weasely bits I put in bold print above:
 * There might be no known account but I find it hard to believe that a pirate never even harmed anyone.
 * The line is restricted to "captive". That might be true (or maybe not) but he certainly harmed a lot of others that were not captives, maybe because they were not yet captives, or his crew (he aimed to shoot one of this crew and hit Israel Hands, for instance)

Hence I removed the unsourced and weasely bits. The sentence that remains - and the passages further down, sourced to Leeson - are enough to paint an accurate picture. Str1977 (talk) 09:39, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Airplanes
Hello i am an aeroplane. Fv.dgmpg0rwgrergrwvbfgwgf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.252.88.80 (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2021
Can I change Blackbeard’s birth year without it saying "presumed"? His real birth year is circa 1683. Kennythenuker (talk) 17:19, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have reliable sources for that claim? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No, but it’s on the real Blackbeard’s records. Kennythenuker (talk) 18:49, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don’t know the definition of "Reliable sources" is. Kennythenuker (talk) 19:08, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I’m finished with this discussion. It’s all good, no worries! Kennythenuker (talk) 20:07, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2021
Blackbeard was buried on Ragged Island, Bahamas 1718 He was married at the time to Marget Gesible 1685-1745 Ella Woods Mary Ormond Greening Blackbeard was son to Capt. Edward Thache 1656-1706 Linda Jean (Elizabeth) Titman 1660-1699 Bigwavedave2u (talk) 09:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:53, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2021
Please change  to. The current link goes to the already-mentioned "Blackbeard: Terror at Sea". 130.208.182.103 (talk) 22:08, 3 October 2021 (UTC)


 * ✅ Good catch. Retswerb (talk) 08:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2021
Please change Blackbeard’s date of birth from circa 1680 to circa 1683. Kennythenuker (talk) 04:15, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reliable source to support this change? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, because it shows his accurate date of birth in a book called Quest for Blackbeard: The True Story of Edward Thache and His World Kennythenuker (talk) 04:26, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It appears that that source is self-published. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:15, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn’t mean to self-publish it. I was just going by what it says in a book called Quest for Blackbeard: The True Story of Edward Thache and His World. My apologies. Kennythenuker (talk) 15:10, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Books published by Lulu Press are essentially self-published and are not usually reliable sources. Something as fundamental as a birth date is likely reported in higher quality sources. See WP:BESTSOURCES and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:16, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Welsh?
Some books claim his origins were in South Wales... this is not far from Bristol and has a strong maritime connection... 2A01:4C8:1425:EF33:3CF1:5FF9:7AAC:755A (talk) 10:45, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

north american colonies
they had no western coast in 1717 so that is redundant 2601:589:180:1D30:7C2A:AF6B:DFD8:FA22 (talk) 01:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Blackbeard
Pertaining to blackbeard, the article states he used to light (wicks or fuses) on his hat in order to frighten his enemies. Would the reason also be to light his pistols as he went into battle with braces of them? Also to light cannon fuses etc? Possible this information could be verified and added. Matchlock pistols were in use back then and had fuses, also you could light a flintlock pistol if the cock failed with a lighted wick .Thiebaudster (talk) 15:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

location of battle
The battle did not happen " off the coast of North Carolina " it happened off the coast of Ocracoke Island in the Pamlico Sound..Ocracoke is a barrier island off the coast..the battle occurred west of the barrier island north of Ocracoke Inlet in shallow water south of the village of Ocracoke probably in the vicinity of Teaches Hole..it did not happen in the ocean but inshore..this is common knowledge and there is an historical marker nearby 2600:1702:2340:9470:4155:A65C:D5CF:95AF (talk) 22:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Edward teaches
This is cool 2600:1005:A101:DBA9:495E:5BA1:393A:3895 (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

“Thatch” vs. “Teach”.
Everyone can agree that, sounding out his name, his name is Edward Thatch, right?

If so, at what point did “Teachers” become “Thatchers”? Also why is it not used currently?

Finally, is there any other “Tea-” word that sounds like “That-”? Rttrttyan (talk) 08:19, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Blackbeard's family
hasn't the research provided by a couple modern genealoists like Baylus C. Brooks prove that the family ties of Blackbeard have already been found? so maybe that should be edited Diego I de Persia (talk) 05:12, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Usage Error
I can't correct this because the article is protected, but this usage is incorrect: "In contemporary records his name is most often given as Blackbeard, Edward Thatch or Edward Teach. The latter is most often used". The terms "latter" and "former" are only to be used when there are exactly two items specified. In this case, there are three, so the correct word is "last". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.195.157 (talk) 08:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC)