Talk:Borscht

Borderline between soup and casserole types
The idea of preparing borscht per "Ingredients and Preparation" chapter have always reminded me of a dish that is not a soup. The chapter says borscht should be thick enough to make a spoon stand upright. What if borscht is - and always have been - supposed to be close to a modern casserole (in such a way)? The medieval borscht would be cooked in batches, and the modern casserole is also a dish popular for "batch cooking" life improvement tips. 2A00:1370:81A2:156:503B:F9E9:E308:7F1E (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * My wife's Ukrainian borscht, as well as every bowl of borscht I ate when I was living in the country, was thin and sometimes almost 70% beet broth rather than potatoes or meat. No self-respecting spoon could ever stand in such a bowl of soup.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 11:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 2A00:1370:81A2:156:B135:241A:AD84:CA66 (talk) 15:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That's interesting, actually, how your experience parts ways entirely with the stories of Burlakoff. Because the same can be said about the dish I know and remember as "borscht" in Russia. Could have been a soup with mutual Soviet origin recorded under old, faux legacy recycled name.
 * 2A00:1370:81A2:156:D16D:EF98:B6E3:2F97 (talk) 16:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * As mentioned 45 minutes ago, it is a generalization-like move to attach borscht and the history of borscht's metamorphosis to a whichever sole country. The user's commentary goes as following: The history part of this article explains how it was made throughout history in different versions among east slavs like ukrainians and russians. Not even the red beet variant is stated to be ukrainian in the history part, this is generalization. Ontop of that the sources given arent cited 2A00:1FA0:230:1551:0:57:1811:3A01 (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The precursor i.e. the original soup made with sour common hogweed was described as a "concotion"; see "Precursors" paragraph. My opinion is: I agree with the claim borscht had been a casserole-like dish rather than a soup. I also agree with the hints the switch from casserole style to soup style happened somewhere outside of Ukrainian influence - be it either Français haute cuisine or Polish chefs or Russian chefs or Soviet rationalization of food cooking; any of those are outside of the idea modern borscht is a part of Ukrainian legacy 109.252.79.112 (talk) 13:24, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This is nothing but WP:OR on your part. WP:RS holds sway and since they are heavily in favor of Ukraine as the origin of the beet-based soup known as "borsch(t)", that is the final word.  UNESCO as a source for authority is definitive.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 14:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Touché 109.252.73.45 (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Some of those sources actually cite the soup first cooked in Borscht Belt, New York, USA. Therefore, borscht of the English-speaking people (per "this is ENGLISH Wikipedia) is actually a New York's original food - just like Caesar's salad is currently attributed to Tijuana, Mexico. 2A00:1FA0:443E:B92F:0:58:8852:5701 (talk) 09:44, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Apparently, today, a new consensus have been established by Rodw, a highly ranked editor. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 19:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * All I did was disambiguate the link to East Slavic to East Slavs without examining context or talk pages. The link to East Slavic next to "Place of origin" was added by User:I like Finnland with this edit.&mdash; Rod talk 19:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A "new consensus" has not been established and you have clearly not read the history of this article in the archives where the issue has been discussed many times. The sources are fairly consistent that the origin of beet-based borscht, which the English word refers to, is in Ukraine.  You have confused the existence of things in Europe that are called borsch-like words in other languages with the simple and clearly-demonstrated reality that the English term "borscht" refers to none of these.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * on the talk page I cant see any discussion about the origin of borscht, where is it? I like Finnland (talk) 20:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * See the button above labeled "Archives 1 2 3"? It's in there.  As I recall it was sometime in the 2010s or perhaps a bit earlier.  The earliest sources that definitively place beet-root borscht in Ukraine are from the 18th and 19th centuries.  The modern sources are in the footnotes following the name in the infobox.  These were reiterated when UNESCO declared Ukrainian borscht to be an endangered cultural item following putin's recent escalation of his 2014 invasion.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Awww. You're making me sad now. That's the instance of beetroot borscht, not borscht in general. That's just not making any sense. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 02:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * >See the button above labeled "Archives 1 2 3"? It's in there.
 * This is what makes me sad. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 02:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Honestly, the link between Barszcz ukrainsky and Borscht belt soup introduced to USA is not strong enough. Sauerkraut dishes are supposed to be associated with Germany, after all. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Aren't you are the one who lets own confusion dictate this issue? Borscht is umbrella term, which haven't been addressed. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 03:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC) STRIKED. I am sorry. We had had a discussion a year ago or so. I forgot about it until this afternoon. Beetroot borscht is, however, the popular borscht. To dispute such reasoning, one should make some other borscht(s) popular. Alternatively, one should make hogweed borscht or kvass borscht or both respected anong historians well enough to recognise the significance of such "also borscht". 2A00:1FA0:2CF:194E:0:2D:9ED7:4701 (talk) 17:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It' not about beetroots in borscht. It's about the fact borscht in America is a Jewish dish. Just like bagel. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 11:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a quick heads-up.
This article combines 3 separate themes: Hope this helps. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * barszcz ukrainsky and its Borscht Belt adventures;
 * a whole family of traditional борщ Slavic dishes;
 * a way to cook a modern beet soup that's neither exact barszcz ukrainsky nor belonging to the family of traditional борщ.

(P.S.: Also, a Sauerkrautsuppe with tomatoes is not a borscht. But this article makes it look like it is one.) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You are quite right. As I recall from more than a decade ago, it started as a pretty straightforward look at Ukrainian beet-based borsch and its life as Jewish diaspora "borscht" in English-speaking countries (primarily the US).  Then a certain group of editors objected to the "t" and started including anything that was souplike in the Slavic world that had a name that was etymologically related to the Proto-Slavic form without regard to its ingredients or historical relationship to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht".  Then everyone wanted to include grandma's version.  One idea for cleaning up the mess is to 1) drop grandma's recipes, 2) make a separate article for Slavic soups in general, and 3) restrict this article to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht" via the Yiddish-speaking Jewish diaspora to America.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I tried to think of this idea for 30 minutes and all I can say is comme si comme ça. Back to my actual job... 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This article is high-importance for Slavs already; Therefore it should be the other way round: move the mid-importance stuff in a separate entry. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This explains the consensus. A decent ground to stand at, honestly. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 06:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Concerning this article, it is the English language article, so the primary focus should be on the beet-based varieties called "borscht" in English. The topic may well be of high interest to Slavs, but we have to always consider the primary audience of this version of Wikipedia to be English speakers of the countries where English is the primary language.  A second article can focus on matters of importance to Slavs, namely the range of soups that are labeled with a modern cognate of the Proto-Slavic form *bar... (whatever the correct form is), but since most Slavs are not native speakers of English, that is of less importance to the English Wikipedia.  Still very important to certain communities, but not as important to the particular community that the English Wikipedia is focused on.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 00:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I do believe you deserve to use the word "varieties" in all its varieties :) 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:F1B7:B1BF:19FC:3C5E (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * [UPDATE] Welcome back.


 * Long story short: they do make several smaller articles in place of a big one in a similar situation.
 * As for the details: Making a "Happened before" section. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Another idea for the sake of brainstorming: reduce to a disambiguation page: "may refer to: "Borscht (here)", "Borscht (there)", "Beet soup"; "see also: Cabbage soup, list of X dishes, list of Y dishes, etc." 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Happened before
The origin-related issue with a similar ground took place in the article on holishkes; as those, apparently, are also referred to as "golub".
 * As for now, there are a separate entries for holishkes, for golabki and - to cover every other similar dish, such as "голубцы" - an entry for cabbage rolls in general 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one: blini vs blintz, which both happen to be aside from crepes - which, in turn, also happen to be separate from pancakes.
 * Now, in Russian, there is a Runglish word панкейки (for pancakes-that-are-not-blini). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Honorary mention of an overlap of applicable meanings for a name for an alcopop
Honorary mention of a, so-to-say, linguistic overlap... Even though they only drink it in Japan now; Zima (drink) from 1990's: the word has a basic meaning in Slavic languages all while it also has an interesting meaning in Hebrew.
 * The former is somewhat relevant to the drink, which pretty much looks like a bottle of vodka-based drink (also, see 1998 ads with "A few degrees cooler" slogan)
 * The latter is... also relevant, given it's a sweeter-than-beer alcoholic drink (and not just a kid-friendly fizzy pop)(also, see early Zima ads) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

It's "beet" not "beetroot"
This is an American site and should reflect the language of the majority of users and not the tiny proportion of them from the UK. 24.247.31.147 (talk) 05:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I only use "beet" ;) --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Same :^) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In fact, when you think about it... The "root" word implies a complex shape nowadays. It's not just "pluck out of ground" origin now. Otherwise, radishes would be radishroots, potatoes would be potaroots, watermelons would be woh-melroots, etc. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:10, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Different varieties of English exist, per WP:ENGVAR. This is not an American site. Valereee (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Beet is shorter, cuter and sweeter in sounding. Also, have you read the heads-up? 109.252.71.81 (talk) 23:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Except in the case of articles which are about clearly American or British (or whichever country) subjects, what we care about is the language variant used by the creator of the article. Beetroot, a BrEng term, was used in the original version, so beetroot is what we keep it at unless there's consensus to change. The fact I use beet, Taivo uses beet, or you use beet doesn't matter, nor that one word has fewer letters or is "cuter" or "sweeter sounding". This is a featured article, which means a LOT of very experienced people have worked on it and didn't object to beetroot.
 * Ping to, who created the article, , who nominated it, and , who promoted it to FA. Valereee (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It was not me but who created it. This is English Wikipedia not American Wikipedia, so per WP:ENGVAR no to change. Also pretty sure it's not just the UK but also other non Americans that use beetroot such as Australians. KylieTastic (talk) 12:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry for the ping, KylieTastic, I must have misread something. Valereee (talk) 12:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * >Except in the case of articles which are about clearly American or British (or whichever country) subjects, what we care about is the language variant used by the creator of the article.
 * Hold on. I th
 * think this article is specifitailored by TaivoLinguist to be cally "New York American" (Borscht Belt borscht brought to Am because, quote: "it has that lovely "t". 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:F019:8B4C:4D62:B9FC (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)rican.
 * Let's honor the fact TaivoLinguist got a barnstar earned by fixing vandalisms on this very article. Bes 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:F019:8B4C:4D62:B9FC (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Origin of beet borscht
Is there any evidence that the beet (red) version of borscht originated in Ukraine?

Beet versions of borscht can be found in Russian Empire’s cookbooks published in Moscow.

For example:https://search.rsl.ru/ru/record/01002989045 1816

or https://archive.org/details/druk-02/page/n9/mode/2up 1779

176.99.249.99 (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. The sources are listed in the text. And even when the earliest sources state "russian empire" they localize the origin to the region of Ukraine.  We use modern names for locations, so when it says that the origin was in the "lower Dnieper River Basin" (for example), that's Ukraine in Wikipedia.  This has been discussed before so look it up in the archives of the Talk Page here.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, if you're going to use non-English sources, they don't count and we can ignore them unless you provide a translation into English here. You can't expect any of us to know russian.  Some might, but most of us don't.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Apologies, its 1AM here. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, they do count. We prefer sources in English, but sources in other languages are fine too, especially if they're higher quality than any English sources we can find. But yes, we do need some way to verify, which typically means we need someone to translate. And IP, you might consider creating an account. It has many benefits both to you and to other editors. For us it means we know whether we're in conversation with one person or many, it means we can WP:PING you, leave messages on your talk page. For you it means you can develop a reputation -- for instance, for translating accurately. Valereee (talk) 16:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Apparently, the article was made for the borscht Yiddish speaking immigrants used make in Borscht Belt; not borschts in general. That's ridiculous, but it is what it is, the Slav soups are now described "variants" of the soup Yiddish-speaking Americans have brought to the agglomeration of New York. That's a bit of stretch, though. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:1994:C636:2E70:1067 (talk) 00:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

So, borscht is on par with blintz, holishkes and bagels for an American? Hmmmm... Making some emphasis on this "little" historical moment could be of great help for a European. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hey, IP. Not sure what you're meaning with this? Valereee (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, Valereee. The borscht "as served in America" variant is currently overshadowed with the variants that have stayed in [continental] Europe. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:A50D:7CEB:384E:98D0 (talk) 13:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, anon IP, beet-based borscht as found in America because this is the English language Wikipedia, so items that are more important in the English-speaking world should be expected to overshadow things that don't occur commonly in the English-speaking world. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The overshadowing isn't reflected properly in the article, to be honest. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:344E:20E2:348A:D3EA (talk) 18:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I honestly misread your first comment, I think. I agree that all those "varieties" need their own article because they are overwhelming the beet-based borscht that should be highlighted in this article.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 10:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Excessive lines
From the mobile device, there are excessive blank lines at the end of some paragraphs; for example, this one: Borscht. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks2A00:1370:81A2:4024:72DE:1715:61B6:2595 (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Request to get rid of the "variations" word
It would be of great help to replace the "variation" word with something else. Borscht qua borscht is one thing, any similar but different dish is be another. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 06:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC) Reason: It's illogical to label soups with a common hogveed ancestor to be "variations" of one particular type 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:191E:CA94:9900:F075 (talk) 06:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do not discriminate English users for not being "native speakers" because reasons
>but since most Slavs are not native speakers of English

I disagree; but support the idea to split the article into "Y.-sp. Am." soup" and "Slav" soups" to avoid further mishaps and disagreements. The "native speaker" status may mean... well, something; but, due to globalization, a lot of Slavs use English to communicate *with other Slavs*. Why? Short answer: False friends such as čerstve pecivo (the pic in the article). 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:17D:97E4:7818:6F0D (talk) 00:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Two more points.
 * Daily reminder Wikipedia and smarty cellies don't go well.
 * Cockney accent and such also counts as "native English". Or what about some British slangy speak in general?
 * Just because a lot of Poles and Serbs and Ukrainians use English as a SECOND language (not, by definition, "native") is not relevant. "Borscht" is the normal English word for the beet-based soup in native-speaking regions of the globe, especially the Americas.  When I lived in Ukraine (and now that I'm back in the US with a Ukrainian wife), I used "borsch" even when speaking English, because that's the word that the native Ukrainian and Russian speakers recognized and used in their English.  But the "native" English word has that lovely "t" at the end.  However we agree on one thing (and I suspect even without polling that the majority of editors here will agree with us), that this article needs to be split into an article on the beet-based soup that is commonly known "avec t" in English as "borscht" and an article on other Slavic (and Slavic-adjacent) eastern European soups that are not beet-based, but are called by a name "sans t" in the local language.  That will also solve the pesky "variants" problem.   --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm having a hard time following since this is being discussed in more than one section. @TaivoLinguist, is your point that there are two distinct dishes with similar names, and that they could both be supported from reliable sources as notable dishes? Valereee (talk) 12:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @Valereee. In Proto-Slavic there was a word *bar... (something or other) that referred to "sour soup".  That Proto-Slavic form then naturally changed over time into a word in most (if not all) modern Slavic languages that still refers to some sort of sour soup in that culture.  Those various sour soups in the Slavic world should have their own article.  In Ukraine, that particular sour soup is called "borsch" (in the Ukrainian language) and is based on beets.  It is that particular soup (and not any of the other Slavic sour soups) that was brought to the US by Yiddish-speaking immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries and was called, in Yiddish, "borscht".  This particular sour soup, called "borscht" in English and based on beets, is the subject of this particular article.  Thus there are two articles that should exist in the English Wikipedia--this article about "borscht", the beet-based soup that most English speakers associate with the word, and a second article on Slavic sour soups in general whose names in the local language usually derive from the Proto-Slavic word for "sour soup" and that are not derived from beets and whose names are not, literally, "borscht" (with a t).  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @TaivoLinguist, I'd love to see us create Slavic sour soups! Can we simply spin off from this article, are the sources good enough? I think we'd need to see three sources using the term 'Slavic sour soups' (or whatever) and giving sigcov. Valereee (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Like maybe just spin off the entire Namesakes without beets section? Valereee (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Slavic sour soups" may accidentally grab kapustnica and some other non-borscht sour soups. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:2D93:F9B0:7994:441 (talk) 20:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not a problem. Those soups can be linked, don't have to be merged unless there's scant support for independent notability for a given one. Valereee (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Still, it sounds like a good idea to make this little spinoff. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:2D93:F9B0:7994:441 (talk) 20:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Slavic sour soups
I've created this draft. Anyone should feel free to go work on that and ping me when you feel it's ready to move to article space and we can adjust the section in this article.

FTR, I am not comfortable with this citation style, so please especially look at that and remove or adjust as necessary. Valereee (talk) 12:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much! 109.252.71.81 (talk) 00:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Serious ideas:
 * Add "History" section - "precursors" and "diversification"
 * Add a link to shchi (also a sour slavic soup) and cabbage soup (used to desribe kapustnica Slavic soup)
 * Add the Slavic words and make a mention those words are similar to "borscht" but lack that Yiddish "-t" addition.
 * 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:F019:8B4C:4D62:B9FC (talk) 23:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably best discussed at Draft talk:Slavic sour soups. Valereee (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)


 * There isn't a "t addition". That is misinformation propagated by a certain frequent contributor to this page, who claims that Yiddish "borscht" is a loan from Ukrainian "borsh". It isn't, it's from Russian "borshch"; this sound "shch" isn't found in Yiddish so it's simplified to "borscht".Essence of nightshade (talk) 23:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)


 * You don't know what you're talking about because the word in both Ukrainian and Russian ends with Щ. And since the potential sources' base forms are identical, it doesn't really matter whether you say that Yiddish "modified" the final Щ to "scht" or added a final "t" to "sch" (German spelling of [ʃ]).  But in terms of spelling, common English generally uses "sch" to transliterate Cyrillic Щ, so when you compare a transliterated "borsch" to "borscht" what do you have?  You add a "t".  (I'm not talking about "official", ISO-approved transliteration, but the common, unofficial transliterations that the average speaker of English [or German/Yiddish] sees in print.)  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 14:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I guess the question is when was Щ simplified to sounding like Ш where? The reason I looked at this is – and maybe I've misinterpreted you – that it seemed to play a role in your argument that Borscht is uniquely Ukrainian rather than also Russian. I saw a few folks suggest that Yiddish borrowed it from Polish, which a priori would make a ton of sense but I don't really know. I think it's important to nail this down.
 * "But in terms of spelling, common English generally uses "sch" to transliterate Cyrillic Щ."
 * No, see Nikita Krushchev.Essence of nightshade (talk) 21:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Two my cents: sch in a word makes it look like the word refers to something from Deutschland. Not that it is really meaningful... 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

"Good article" template
I propose the addition of the "Good article" template. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I see some quirks but the overall quality of the article is not even half bad. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 05:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's already a WP:Featured Article. That's a level of peer review higher than GA. Valereee (talk) 13:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be any kind of "featured" as it's been distorted by nationalist POV pushing. Not from you.Essence of nightshade (talk) 00:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You can propose it be re-reviewed as FA, per instructions at Featured article review. Valereee (talk) 14:50, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Featured Article review needed?
This article does seems to have deteriorated. Pinging, , , , , ,. Valereee (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, just seen this. Someone needs to quantify and list specific problems and we can work from there. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Valereee Mind elaborating on how it deterioratd? I see some unreferenced content; pinging non-IP editors who added it (rewrote it... WRT is not perfect): Kpalion has been pinged already; @TaivoLinguist. Errr, that's about it. From what I can tell, 80% of unreferenced content has been added by IPs) in the last 2-3 years, 15% by Kpalion c. 2015-2016, and maybe 5% by TavioLinguist (in the etymology and at the very end?). If nobody cares to reference it, we can probably just remove all unreferenced content citing WP:V, there's not much of it. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * A tag has been placed in the lead stating there is no evidence for its use in orthodox rituals. It is mentioned in body of text but would be good to discuss before removing tag as am not familiar myself. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * This sentence Sometimes, borscht can be found as barszcz (a Polish word for 'borscht') or borshch (transliteration of Cyrillic "борщ"), although these are still foreign words in English and not natively used. - if these spelling variants have been not uncommonly seen/used, would be worth citing them but I suspect they are pretty rare (???) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * For me, with food, the issues of similar-names-but-different-foods and of similar-foods-but-different-names, especially when complicated by transliteration, are always a question. Sometimes even sources that are digitalized and can be machine-translated don't help. Sauces get translated into dips, soups or even stews, for instance. And with the names of food dishes, you always get into gastronationalism issues: if in Bulgaria it's called борш and is rendered in English as borsh, by God we have to include borsh. My default setting on things like barszcz and borshch and borsh is to include if we can find a citation, until/unless the sheer number of those inclusions becomes a negative. Which, no surprise, whenever we approach the Balkans it often does. :D Valereee (talk) 11:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey, @Piotrus, thanks for coming in. Yes, it's partially the additions by IPs over the past few years, and it's a little complicated by the fact many of these additions/changes are for terms that are transliterated and quite a few seem to be for dishes with some sort of name similarity but which really aren't what we mean in English by "borscht", which is a sour soup with beets as the primary ingredient. Plus I think basically the entire 'Namesakes without beets section' could be spun off (drafted at Draft:Slavic sour soups), as other than the various gastronationalistic edits it seems to have attracted much of the attention.
 * I have no objection to simply removing what's not cited. I guess that leaves us with checking any unreverted additions to make sure we catch any that were added in front of a ref, making it look like they are sourced? Sorry for my ignorance here, there just aren't that many food-related FAs that draw heavy POV editing, so I haven't done this before. Is there some easier way to do that instead of simply checking each diff so see if it included a source, and if it didn't, checking the source to see if it supports the assertion? Valereee (talk) 10:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Valereee It's an interseting topic but not something I am very familiar with, sadly. I'll just note for now that żur is sometimes known in Poland as "white borscht" (it has no beets). And yes, for most folks, borscht means a red beet soup, of course. I support creation of Slavic sour soups article, which could be linked from here, żur, and like. (But, borscht is not sour... IMHO it's sweet? Żur is sour, yes). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sour basically refers to the fact it often contains some fermented or pickled ingredient. The beets themselves are sweet, but borscht is often made from preserved (traditionally that means pickled or fermented, which are types of preservation that can easily and safely be done at home without a pressure cooker) beets. When borscht is made from fresh or canned beets, in modern recipes some sour ingredient (like whey or pickled beet juice) is often called for to get the tangy flavor, but a modern borscht is probably much sweeter than what you'd have eaten every day with brown bread a few hundred years ago. Valereee (talk) 11:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And, hm, on zur. I'm wondering if Sour cereal soup and Draft:Slavic sour soups are actually the same thing? @TaivoLinguist? Valereee (talk) 12:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * +1 to that question; didn't know there's an article on zur-like Slavonic soups. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, serious answer. That article is bad, because there was a separate article on "zur". BUT! Sour cereal soup is related to the soups from the "diversification" part in general, not just 1 variant of zur. Feel free to grab that article (I would restore "zur" article with all the interlinks in the meantime). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * NONONONONONONONO! Don't mix moden beet borscht with ancient soups we happen to know via XI Xcentury books, such as Podarok molodym khozaikam. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:3FDA:1D04:A236:18DA (talk) 19:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * >Sour basically refers to the fact it often contains some fermented or pickled ingredient.
 * >often
 * >often
 * No. It HAS a sour TASTE. What you try to descrive is a soup merely reminiscent of Slavonic sour soups via some wonky ingridien'. OK, fine. Once I have the time, I will enrich you draft on "Slavic" sour soups with the information you need to stop confusing borSCHT with the actual soups of the ancient Slavs. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:3FDA:1D04:A236:18DA (talk) 19:37, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I appear to have touched a nerve. :) IP, please do enrich the draft. I'm always interested in the history of foods. Valereee (talk) 23:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 1t's OK, thanks for the emotional support :) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, it wasn't for me. As for the enriching, I would like to "overflow" the draft with extra information on how the beet borscht belongs to the {a;R;r;A;y} of Slavonic sour soups first. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Профессор кислых щей ПИНГ!!! 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

When I wrote the article back in 2016, I used a broad definition: borscht is everything that gets called "borscht", "borshch", "barszcz" or something similar in any language, which meant that almost any sour soup could be included in that definition. Under this approach, the beet borscht is the best known among many variaties of borscht. But now I think that a different approach might work better: to employ a narrower definition where borscht is always red and always contains beets. The "Namesakes without beets", "Precursors" and "Diversification" subsections could then be moved to an expanded "Etymology" section (perhaps renamed to something like "Origin and variants of the name"), which would focus on the evolution of the word "borscht" and what it may refer to in languages other than English. The rest of the article would only deal the beet borscht. — Kpalion(talk) 12:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Disagree per, quote, "this is ENGLISH Wikipedia". The etymology in English - "borSCHT" - is Yiddish and this explains why the brew known in Polish as barszcz ukrainsky that is soup of Borscht Belt.
 * As for the brew of Russian cuisine, I would assume "борщ" should have been shchi svekolnye all along. The key difference is, not many Russians add sour stuff into the brew (since Russian smetana is not really sour; it's somewhat sweet, even).
 * 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:01, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Disagree with what? — Kpalion(talk) 22:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * When I first arrived at this article it was pretty straightforward--beet-based borscht as known in the English-speaking world that originated in Ukraine. Then after 2014, some real-world events began the process of IP edit warring over the origin, the nature, and the name.  Thankfully it has quieted down over the past year.  I heartily agree that the sour Slavic soups that may or may not have names related etymologically to "borscht" and often contain no beets should have their own article.  My wife is Ukrainian so I don't know anything about those soups and appreciate the work that has gone into the draft article.  The draft that I last looked at was ready to publish as far as I could tell.  I also agree that in the English Wikipedia, all those Slavic transliterations that aren't actually words in English don't belong here and just clutter it up.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 09:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * >Then after 2014, some real-world events began the process of IP edit warring over the origin, the nature, and the name.
 * Fun fact: a number of "борщ"-related news articles published here in Russia have attracted my attention to the problem of борщ indeed. I was thinking about the part where there are several slavic sour soups which are united under "борщ" umbrella term; and got met with the idea of borscht qua borscht by TaivoLinguist. Hope I will have some time to finish the "Slavic sour soups" draft to line up some distinct differences obvious to a Slav yet not visible to a person thousand kilometers away.
 * TL;DR: I had had this very "SOMEONE'S WRONG ON THE INTERNET" moment before I took the time to edit the article. It is waaaay to large to quickly skim thru. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * >Thankfully it has quieted down over the past year.
 * U R welkom komrad 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)