Talk:Brown University/Archive 1

Is the New Curriculum overrated?
I think it's a bit too much that half of the history section, for a university that is 240+ years old, is devoted to this subject. With apologies to older Brunonians (I'm B'97) I just don't think it is as important as it may have seemed in the 60's. Though Brown has fewer formalized requirements than other schools, I think for most students the effect is not much different (though one's GPA is a little clunkier w/o the +/-'s) as they are well aware of what will be expected of them in graduate school or the professional world. Pres. Simmons' priorities seem to be to improve brown's finances and develop top notch research centers, not to promote some idea of "self determination". Although the University still pays lip service to it I think the New Curriculum is fading in importance. Perhaps someone can modify the history section? Kurtosis 23:33, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Brown interviews
What should I ask in my Brown Interview? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by EKN (talk • contribs) 02:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This isn't exactly the place to ask; e-mail me (via my userpage) if you like. --Mgreenbe 01:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Acceptance Rate
For 2004-2005, the Class of 2009 registered a 14.6% acceptance rate. That's pretty good. But several authors keep changing this section in the text to say, "6th" lowest in the country among doctoral research universities. This is factually incorrect. In the same admissions cycle, Harvard-Yale-Princeton-Columbia had lower rates. Meanwhile, MIT's rate was 14%; Stanford hovered around 12%. So at the very least, this ranks Brown 7th, so long as we use Carnegie's index which excludes regional liberal arts college, the military academies and the music institutes. Those who ignore this fact distort Brown's relative statistical standing vis-a-vis other elite colleges.

For proof: http://www.hernandezcollegeconsulting.com/resources/early2005statistics.html

Keep in mind in terms of the acceptance/yield ratios Brown is also not in the top five. The "bolt" rate--i.e., the percentage of students who bolt from a Brown admissions offer to another school's admissions offer given acceptance into both--for every dyad (e.g., Brown-Harvard, Brown-Yale, Brown-Princeton, etc.) is skewed towards the non-Brown institution, EXCEPT for the three Ivies not mentioned thus far: Brown-Cornell; Brown-UPenn; Brown-Dartmouth, in which the bolt rate favors Brown significantly. This is nothing to be ashamed of, but please, Brown fans, don't inflate the eliteness of the school by inventing statistics. One place may not be much to argue over: but it is a statistical lie, and Wikipedia has no place for such blatant fabrications. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.58.254.147 (talk • contribs).

--

The above argument is baseless because it is based on unofficial numbers. An example: Harvard's acceptance rate is listed at 10.3% overall, while the Harvard webpage begs to differ, claiming the official rate to be 9.2% (http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/prospective/applying/stats/index.html). Admissions percentages can be interpreteed many different ways. I agree that they should not appear on ANY college articles for this reason. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.16.12.112 (talk • contribs).

Josiah Carberry
The "Josiah Carberry" reference is a little spurious--he deserves a page in the Wikipedia, sure, but should he be one of only two people mentioned in connection to Brown here? 24.61.43.104 05:02, 18 Oct 2002 (UTC)


 * Agreed... but he really does deserve a wikipedia page, so why take him off? Can you think of people who should be added to the Brown page?  We certainly could do so.  Should we add the last few presidents (EGG, etc.)?  They hardly seem that relevant.  Actually, more than people, we should really add the New Curriculum.  In fact, maybe I'll add something on that now.  Tom 14:35, 19 Oct 2002 (UTC)


 * Hrmph, now User:Someone Else has taken Mr. Carberry off without explanation (or rather, by calling it "misinformation"). "Misinformation" isn't quite the work -- perhaps a misplaced joke.  On the other hand, this joke is an important part of Brown lore, documented, etc. (the library actually had an exhibit about Mr. Carberry not long ago).  Perhaps if I come back to this page and organize/expand it, I can put it in under Brown traditions/myths.  Thoughts?  Tom 23:54, 3 Apr 2003 (UTC)


 * Someone, put in an obviously fabricated story after your encyclopedic entry on this subject, and, though it is funny, I feel I must deleate it to deter any miss information. Sorry funny man (who I assume was not you). Mike 23:44m 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)

POV in Atmosphere at Brown University
Memento, I don't mind if you revert changes, so long as you can justify the reversion. As for instance, by your citing Women's Wear Daily. However, I think you also added back in some things that are merely opinion. Do you think you could either find cites for them or remove them, please?

In particular: Some consider Brown to be the "happiest Ivy."
 * -- who? And isn't this just a an opinion, and an opinion students at other Ivies might vociferously contest?

The curriculum [...] promotes an atmosphere where students are sincerely interested in their work
 * -- how do we objectively distinguish the sincere interest of Brown's students from the (presumably) insincere or less sincere interest of students at other universities? Are all or even most students at Brown sincerely interested? Is this a fact or is this Brown boosterism?

on the basis that students on campus seem to have the strongest sense of personal style
 * -- did Women's Wear Daily actually say strongest sense of personal style? What, precisely, determines a "strong sense" of style, and what distinguishes a "personal style" from a public or an impersonal style? Is this fact, or opinion?

they strip off their clothes and, once nude, run out from the elevators all through the library where students are dutifully writing papers or preparing for tests
 * -- are all students writing or preparing, or are some or most lounging about or present to see the amateur strip show? The students are "dutifully" writing papers? How do we know they're doing it dutifully, or is this just purple prose? Could they be "desultorily" writing papers? or "dispiritedly" writing papers? Or "doggedly" writing papers?

the streakers gleefully hand out the highly-caloric treats to all bystanders.
 * -- "Gleefully", perhaps. but "the highly caloric treats" is something straight out of a freshman creative writing class; why not just say "donuts", or "snacks"?

The naked donut runners, it should be noted, are not known for their physical fitness- and are proud of this fact.
 * -- "it should be noted"? Why should it be noted? thus is pure filler to make the sentence sound better, and again, belong sin a creative writing class and not an encyclopedia. While it does seem likely the students are not known for their physical fitness, why not simply say they are "out of shape"? And how do we know they're proud of that? If they chant "we're proud to be wimps", then say that -- that's a firm, objective statement of fact. But "are proud" is the writer's inference. When in doubt, Wikipedia should sound more like a newspaper article, and less like a Chamber of Commerce press release.

Though Brown, like most Ivies, leans liberal
 * -- I know this is a truism, but is it true? If so, how do we know?

students on campus have a wide range of political beliefs, and seem engaged with most political topics.
 * -- They "seem engaged"? How can you tell. Eschew broad generalization; prefer facts: "70% of Brown's students volunteer in political campaigns" or the like.

the naked donut runners dash across campus to the Sciences Library ("SciLi")
 * -- do general readers who aren't Brown students care about the slang abbreviation for campus building -- enough to include it in an encyclopedia?

where they repeat the process for Brown's more technically minded- and equally wide-eyed- students.
 * -- is "technically minded" a mushy substitute for "science and engineering majors"? And are they really ''equally wide-eyed- [sic]", or is this more creative writing?

''Donut runs vary in number of students participating and in number of donuts purchased. In the 2000 donut run, for example, nearly twenty students participated with numerous full boxes of donuts; in the 2004 donut run, however, only a handful of students participated, with small bags of donuts. Student turnout for the runs will vary as well, depending on how secretive the runners are. In the 2000 run, the students were caught more or less unaware, while in the 2004 run, there was a huge turnout crowding the room at least half an hour before the runners arrived.''
 * -- this is a lot of information for an event that "only a handful" of students participate in. Does it really deserve this much attention? So much attention as to give the number of participants in specific years?

I hope I'm not being discouraging to a new wikipedian; please understand this as constructive criticism, and please do continue to make your valuable contributions to Wikipedia. But please consider making those contributions less "purple" in the prose and more concrete in the facts.

Thanks! orthogonal 23:28, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * As a past naked donut runner, I can say I don't think the shape of the naked donuters deserves mention at all -- it doesn't really matter if your insult is direct or backhanded. I also think the naked donut section should be shortioned and incorporated into a sub-section on traditions which would include the much older tradition of Josiah Carberry, which was previously deleted from this site. Other bits of lore might include the myth of the Carrie Bell Tower....Tom 00:30, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * No offense meant -- and none, I think, given by me. To clarify, I did not originate the Naked Donut Runners business, or their (lack of?) shape. The original entry was "The naked donut runners, it should be noted, are not known for their physical fitness- and are proud of this fact.", which I changed to "The naked donut runners profess to be proud of their poor physical fitness." My aim was merely to remove the POV you complain of, and what I think is somewhat overwritten prose. I do agree with you that the Naked Donut Ramble is disproportionately detailed and should be shorted (or deleted) and perhaps moved. But I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt and take its importance -- and claims about physical fitness -- at face value. orthogonal 00:43, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Agreed -- didn't me to aim at you, as I did recognize your take. You can see where it would be mildly amusing to hear wikipedians tweaking the phrasing of a description of a college tradition :) I'll see what I can do about making this part of a more general (brief) section on traditions at Brown. Tom 11:07, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I'm not the original author of any of the statements in the Atmosphere at Brown section. My only contribution was the Women's Wear Daily citation. Also, if you had actually examined my version, you would have noticed that I had retained many of your changes.


 * In particular: Some consider Brown to be the "happiest Ivy."
 * -- who? And isn't this just a an opinion, and an opinion students at other Ivies might vociferously contest?
 * Notice how I changed it from Brown is generally considered to Some consider Brown to be?


 * The curriculum [...] promotes an atmosphere where students are sincerely interested in their work
 * -- how do we objectively distinguish the sincere interest of Brown's students from the (presumably) insincere or less sincere interest of students at other universities? Are all or even most students at Brown sincerely interested? Is this a fact or is this Brown boosterism?
 * As per your request, I removed it.


 * on the basis that students on campus seem to have the strongest sense of personal style
 * -- did Women's Wear Daily actually say strongest sense of personal style? What, precisely, determines a "strong sense" of style, and what distinguishes a "personal style" from a public or an impersonal style? Is this fact, or opinion?
 * Original article here.


 * they strip off their clothes and, once nude, run out from the elevators all through the library where students are dutifully writing papers or preparing for tests
 * -- are all students writing or preparing, or are some or most lounging about or present to see the amateur strip show? The students are "dutifully" writing papers? How do we know they're doing it dutifully, or is this just purple prose? Could they be "desultorily" writing papers? or "dispiritedly" writing papers? Or "doggedly" writing papers?
 * Your change was retained.


 * the streakers gleefully hand out the highly-caloric treats to all bystanders.
 * -- "Gleefully", perhaps. but "the highly caloric treats" is something straight out of a freshman creative writing class; why not just say "donuts", or "snacks"?
 * Your change was retained.


 * The naked donut runners, it should be noted, are not known for their physical fitness- and are proud of this fact.
 * -- "it should be noted"? Why should it be noted? thus is pure filler to make the sentence sound better, and again, belong sin a creative writing class and not an encyclopedia. While it does seem likely the students are not known for their physical fitness, why not simply say they are "out of shape"? And how do we know they're proud of that? If they chant "we're proud to be wimps", then say that -- that's a firm, objective statement of fact. But "are proud" is the writer's inference. When in doubt, Wikipedia should sound more like a newspaper article, and less like a Chamber of Commerce press release.
 * Tom removed this in his latest version.


 * Though Brown, like most Ivies, leans liberal
 * -- I know this is a truism, but is it true? If so, how do we know?
 * If you were a student at Brown, there would be no doubt in your mind that the administration, faculty, and student body are overwhelmingly liberal.


 * students on campus have a wide range of political beliefs, and seem engaged with most political topics.
 * -- They "seem engaged"? How can you tell. Eschew broad generalization; prefer facts: "70% of Brown's students volunteer in political campaigns" or the like.
 * As per your request, I removed it.


 * the naked donut runners dash across campus to the Sciences Library ("SciLi")
 * -- do general readers who aren't Brown students care about the slang abbreviation for campus building -- enough to include it in an encyclopedia?
 * Your change was retained.


 * where they repeat the process for Brown's more technically minded- and equally wide-eyed- students.
 * -- is "technically minded" a mushy substitute for "science and engineering majors"? And are they really ''equally wide-eyed- [sic]", or is this more creative writing?
 * Your change was retained.


 * Donut runs vary in number of students participating and in number of donuts purchased. In the 2000 donut run, for example, nearly twenty students participated with numerous full boxes of donuts; in the 2004 donut run, however, only a handful of students participated, with small bags of donuts. Student turnout for the runs will vary as well, depending on how secretive the runners are. In the 2000 run, the students were caught more or less unaware, while in the 2004 run, there was a huge turnout crowding the room at least half an hour before the runners arrived.
 * -- this is a lot of information for an event that "only a handful" of students participate in. Does it really deserve this much attention? So much attention as to give the number of participants in specific years?
 * Tom removed this in his latest version.
 * Next time please examine the latest revision first. MementoVivere 17:23, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry, when I wrote this I was examining the (then) latest revision; changes may have been made while I was working on it, or between the time I put it on your page and then copied it here. But, in any case, I think you (and Tom) have done an excellent job is addressing my questions, and an excellent job with the Brown article in general. The article is, I think, much stronger for your efforts. And thank you for having the intellectual honesty (and patience) to address each of my complaints individually -- that's truly rigorous work, and reflects well on you. orthogonal 17:31, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Is the Nazi Party "Political"?
POV quibble: The list of notable Brown alumni is broken into categories. "Louis Redding - first African American to practice law in Delaware" is categorized in "Government / Law / Public Policy " But "George Lincoln Rockwell (1942) - founder, American Nazi Party" is relegated to "Other". Surely founding a political party, even an abhorrent one, is a form of politics or public policy. Or is the category written narrowly (including lawyers and political figures, but under the name "Public Policy" rather than the ore obvious "Politics", in order expressly to exclude Rockwell while including more palatable politicians? It's perhaps a minor point, but we must be especially careful to avoid POV that reinforces our majority societal views.-- orthogonal 21:35, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Citation
User:Memento Viveri replaced my citations list with external links -- why? Is this preferred on the wikipedia? It seems to be less informative and makes it more of a PITA for outsiders to find where the sources were. Also, the source I listed for my additions gave me information/back-up on most of the current traditions (naked donuts, sex in the scili, etc.), so it's not quite accurate to just list it after the first paragraph of traditions. I have noticed that the "sources" section format is rarely used, but I assumed it was preferred to the links. Tom 23:58, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I think it's contextual, and there are some circumstances (e.g., when you just want to provide confirmation for a single fact and the fastest, best way is by linking to it inline) where you'd definitely want to go with linking it out, and others (e.g., where you refer to a single source multiple times, and/or where it's useful to the user to be shown bibliographical information) where you'd definitely want to go with a "Sources" section, and some hazy gray areas. If you feel there's been an actual loss of useful information, you should change it back. -- &#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330;|Talk&#8253; 00:03, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia practice seems to be to use the "External Sources"; where cites to sites are used, they are in the form htpp://example.com footnote number : "Google is a great place to search [1]"
 * Note that that's a singly bracketed link followed by a space and the displayed text, "[" "url" "space" "displayed text" "]", which is surrounded by two brackets that are not Wiki markup but are actually displayed:
 * "[" "[" "url" "space" "displayed text (generally a footnote number)" "]" "]"
 * -- orthogonal 00:11, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * That's actually not always the practice. See Cite your sources and Cite your sources. I should also point out that one factor in deciding whether to use a link or a bibliography-style source-list is whether you want the casual user to actually follow the link, or just to be aware that a source is there. I know that you supplied that material originally to provide authentication for claims made within the article, so I understand why you'd list sources at the bottom; however, it might be the case that these are links people will want to click through to. ::shrug:: -- &#2325;&#2369;&#2325;&#2381;&#2325;&#2369;&#2352;&#2379;&#2357;&#2366;&#2330;|Talk&#8253; 00:27, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I put the sources back. Actually, I combined the link and source-list. It seems to me to give the best of both worlds -- an instant click if someone wants it, and a reference that will help someone find the permanent print sources if the web source disappears. Hopefully this works out -- I'm also glad that I noticed and that I remembered the old source I'd recorded (which had been erased without explanation). Tom 02:41, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Looks very professional -- I especially like your guarding against the ephemeral nature of the internet by giving "dates retrieved". Good idea. -- orthogonal 03:18, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Breaking Article up
I notice we're getting a notice about this article being too long. I also notice that the vast majority of that length is in the form of lengthy lists. Perhaps one or more of these lists could become its own article? Any thoughts on which one(s) should be split off -- List of Brown Alumni, List of People Associated with Brown, etc...? Tom 13:52, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Following what's been done on the Harvard University page, I went ahead and moved the list of Brown faculty and alums to Brown University people. --Tom 22:03, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

BACH
User:MementoVivere removed the section on BACH, saying that since it only houses 27 people it deserves removal. I would think, however, it might deserve to stay. After all, the naked party is included in this article as part of Brown tradition/culture, and this takes place in the coops. It seems like the coops represent a piece of brown culture, and I don't see the harm of their being mentioned among other discussion of student life (greek life, culture, etc.) Tom 03:08, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm hesitant to put every piece of Brown culture in here, though. Should the world's-best-and-only skating band get a mention? ECDC? The Jabberwocks? Parietals? I think we should keep this article at a fairly high level, instead of trying to get comprehensive.--SarekOfVulcan 21:00, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Aren't naked parties held by all kinds of groups other than BACH (Art House, St. Anthony's Hall, even Tech House)? I think the mention should probably be removed and made more general, no? --shudder 04:36, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not there now, so I can't speak for the present, but from '97-'02, the only naked parties I ever heard about were the ones held by BACH. --Tom 10:10, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm currently at Brown, and there definitely are naked parties held by other groups. --shudder 01:05, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that the parties started with BACH, but more to the point, BACH is a real part of Brown. I wasn't there when they started, but I think they were created in response to a real housing shortage, and they may have been a class or independant study for class credit at their inception.  I think that the organization was entirely student run, at least for a time, which is significant - they outright owned or mort- gaged two of the four houses they used in the mid to late nineties, they ran a food co-op, and I think that many of the members learned a lot about business and management from the experience.  They also had a real culture, as much as, if not more than many of the fraternities.
 * I speak of all of this in the past tense, but only because I am unaware of the present state of things. I should also add that I was never a member, so other people may be albe to speak better to the actual intricacies of BACH itself, but I think they deserve at least as much mention as an fraternity or sorority.
 * As for the skating band - well, that does comment on what Brown is, and who we are. I don't know that any lengthy discussion is needed, but a passing reference might be appropriate. --Badger151 20:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Badger151 appears to be correct about the origins of BACH, according to their website (linked from the wiki page). DMacks 21:44, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Traditions
In the section on traditions at Brown University, surely a required feature of a tradition is that it has been running for a considerable number of years? Consequently, is it not a good idea to say when each tradition was originally established, if only to determine whether or not something should be counted as a tradition? Just because something may be amusing, such as naked donut runners, this does not by itself qualify it as a tradition. When did Brown students start stripping off their clothes and dishing out snacks in the library? 134.225.184.120 19:56, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know when it began but it happened throughout my time at Brown (2001-2005) and had clearly been going on prior to 2001. Can any alumni who graduated in the late 90s comment as to whether the naked donut runs happened then as well? NBS525 14:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I graduated in '97 and I never hear of naked donut runs. To my knowledge the only naked party in those days was the one at the coop. Seems like you young whippersnappers can barely keep your clothes on;-) Kurtosis 22:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I graduated in '99 and ==Kurtosis. I'd be interested in knowing more about the history of these events. User:stylobix 19 May 2006
 * I recall naked-donuts during at least part of my time at Brown (class of '96). I don't remember it being nearly as "organized" and as much of an anticipated regular occurance. I think we considered it a doing of Improvidence folks. DMacks 21:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Scandals/controversies
Should a section on high-profile controversies be included? For example, the Adam Lack case and the Horowitz/BDH thing (which I added to Brown Daily Herald). I feel like these are relevant, but they may need to be offset by things the college has received more positive attention for. – flamurai (t) 22:21, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Feel free to post up any stories, controversial or otherwise, that you deem important and relevant to this article. There is no need to only include positive things. –MementoVivere 19:27, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes! And if you write about adam lack put in this great quote from the John Stossel intervew- "Vomit on the floor doesn't mean a thing. Coulda been there 5 minutes, coulda been there 5 hours" (explaining why he didn't think the girl was drunk) Kurtosis 22:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Mysterious Housing Plan
What is the secret of the tunnel?

Campus housing is the source of many of Brown’s most popular rumors. There is a highly mysterious tunnel system that connects a good deal of Wriston Quad around where Greek and Program houses are located. There are endless theories about the original intent of these tunnels, but rumor has it that they use to extend over a larger portion of the school. Brown is also said to have a few secret societies in addition to the well publicized organizations; these societies are said to be located near campus in mysterious Mansions. The most famous myth concerns the ominous Grad Center dorm. It is rumored to have been designed in 1968 by prison architects as a fortress in case of riots. Regardless of the building’s design intent, it is a fact that the imposing concrete spiral staircase was actually built in the incorrect orientation because the builders read the blueprints wrong.

from College Prowler's guidebook; Brown University - Off the Record


 * I seem to remember hearing that the Grad Towers were designed to be riot-proof, rather than a fortress against riotiers. The argument was that the lack of areas of assembly in the main towers, such as lounges, etc, left no place for rioting.
 * I also know that some of the tunnels are either the basement areas of buildings (as under Keeney; these are accessed by a trap door in the floor of a dead end in one of the lower level hallways, or through one or two of the maintenance rooms, in the rare event that Plant Ops left the door unlocked). Other tunnels, such as those accessed via the trapdoor in the floor of the first floor men's room of the building on the south side of lower Lincoln Field (whose name I forget - anyone?), are steam tunnels, in which steam pipes (and other types of pipes, I suppose) run between buildings.  These tunnels can also be acessed via some of the manholes on Lincoln field.  A manhole near Carrie Tower leads to a tunnel system that quickly splits, part of it running as a crawl space in the direction of the tower, and the rest running toward and into the Hay library.  This tunnel has motion detectors and alarm systems as you approach the library, and I seem to recall that it also had steam pipes.
 * My recollection is that the campus has a steam plant in one corner of the Aldritch-Dexter fields, providing steam to many parts of the campus, so I expect that there are many other tunnels out there for the purposes of carrying and allowing acces to the pipes that deliver that steam. --Badger151 20:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The tunnel running from the manhole near the Carrie Tower leads three places: towards University Hall; towards the tower; and towards the John Hay library. The motion sensors are connected to the Hay library, as far as I can tell, because tripping them summons Brown Police to the Library. The crawlspace mentioned is actually a good ways past the tower, and likely runs under Benefit Street, based on estimates from pacing it out; thus there is no access from the tunnel to the tower. -- Anonymous, Feb. 12, 2006
 * Others have stated that the tunnel does lead to Carrie Tower. Here is a good summary of others' experiences with Brown tunnels. DMacks 23:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * They were built to attact the frats back to campus because they would be fed from the Sharpe Refactory, the local dining hall, in their lounges via the tunnels. The tunnels still exist, and some are locked down more heavily than others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.16.23.171 (talk • contribs) 22:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"prestige" comment
Watchers of this page should see this poll about whether this page should contain a phrase like "widely considered one of the most prestigious universities in the world". Nohat 15:46, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

WBRU
No mention of the local WBRU (95.5) radio station?


 * added on 07:32, 13 August 2005. --JButler 11:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

"Midwestern Ivy League" ?
Contributers to this page may be interested in this article, which has been proposed for deletion:

Midwestern Ivy League

Please review the article and provide your input on that article's Votes for Deletion page. - 18.95.1.22 04:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

"Midwestern Ivy League" ?
Contributors to this page may be interested in this article, which has been proposed for deletion:

Midwestern Ivy League

Please review the article and provide your input on that article's Votes for Deletion page. - 18.95.1.22 04:03, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Sidney Frank Donation
I've been told that Frank's recent $100 million donatation to Brown is not only the largest gift Brown has ever received, but also the largest single donation ever given by an individual to a university. I'm not sure this is true so I am hesitant to post it, but it might be worth checking into. 00:20, October 21, 2005


 * If this was the case, it is no longer true anyway, after the recent donation to Yale's school of music. Mgcsinc 00:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * A significant number of donations in the 1990s were at least $100 million. I wasn't able to find a list of large donations to universities, but apparently The Chronicle of Higher Education has one for subscribers. btm talk 02:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Egyptology
I'm as sad about this as everyone else (in fact more sad, considering I'm a concentrator), but Brown no longer has an Egyptology department; it is instead the Department of Egyptology and Ancient Western Asian Studies. Good luck getting the tour guides to stop saying this, but now no university in the Western hemisphere has a pure Egyptology department. Shame, shame. --Mgreenbe 17:05, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * is western hemisphere also Germany? Because we got at least 6 egyptology departments! kind regards GoJoe

Motto
Shouldn't Deo be spelled with a capital D in the motto?--Tamas 18:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The founding of Brown
I have a suggestion for inserting three sentences (Re: charter principle in reference to professional schools) into the first paragraph of "The founding of Brown" section that would appear just before the last sentence in the existing paragraph. Here is the modified paragraph:

In 1763, James Manning, a Baptist minister, was sent to Rhode Island by the Philadelphia Association of Baptist Churches in order to found a college. At the same time, local Congregationalists, led by James Stiles, were working toward a similar end. On March 3, 1764, a charter was filed to create Rhode Island College in Warren, Rhode Island, reflecting the work of both Stiles and Manning. The charter had more than 60 signatories, including John and Nicholas Brown of the Brown family, who would give the College its present day name. The college's mission, the charter stated, was to prepare students "for discharging the Offices of Life" by providing instruction "in the Vernacular Learned Languages, and in the liberal Arts and Sciences." The charter's language has long been interpreted by the university as discouraging the founding of a business school or law school. Brown continues to be one of only two Ivy League universities with neither a business school nor law school. James Manning, the minister sent to Rhode Island by the Baptists, was sworn in as the College's first president in 1765. GO WHARTON 18:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Citation for charter quotes: Bronson, Walter C. - The History of Brown University, 1764-1914, p. 500. GO WHARTON 08:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe something about what's in the charter causing that interpretation? --Mgreenbe 18:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'll get back to you with an updated suggestion. GO WHARTON 20:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Here is the suggested paragraph update including citation, although I don't know how to do wiki citations. The references in the Brown wiki article all seem to point to other websites rather than to the page bottom. Any comments? GO WHARTON 08:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Awesome, looks great! I fixed a typo; everything else seems fine.  I'm definitely cool with it going in. --Mgreenbe 09:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It's in the article now and so far, no complaints. Then again, it's only been about 30 seconds since I pushed the "Save page" button. Chalk that up to my new PB - Paranoia Brunonia. GO WHARTON 18:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

"Brown was the first college in the nation to accept students of all religious affiliations."
Hmmm...

http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Admission/gettoknowus/ourhistory.html says:
 * Brown was the Baptist answer to Congregationalist Yale and Harvard; Presbyterian Princeton; and Episcopalian Penn and Columbia. At the time, it was the only one that welcomed students of all religious persuasions (following the example of Roger Williams, who founded Rhode Island in 1636 on the same principle).

Penn, however, says
 * Unlike other American Colonial colleges, the new school would not focus on education for the clergy.

and refers to it as "nonsectarian":


 * Penn was founded on unique grounds in the history of education. In Philadelphia Benjamin Franklin sought not only to create a local institution of higher learning, but also to provide an education that did not fit the models already established in New England and Virginia. In Europe and the colonies up to that time, such schools had emphasized the training of new clergymen. The goal of Franklin's nonsectarian, practical plan would be the education of a business and governing class rather than of clergymen.

These don't actually contradict each other, but I'm beginning to think I'd like to see some better sources for the early admissions policies of these two schools. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Latin translation accuracy
I've never taken any Latin, but isn't it supposed to be Universitas Brunensis, not Universitatis Brunensis? A Google search yields different news releases (mostly from the text of honorary degrees) for each of the spellings, but apparently Universitatis Brunensis is also a school in Brno, Czech Republic. I might be completely off-base, but if somebody with any background in Latin could clarify it'd be much appreciated. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Riphamilton (talk • contribs) 04:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Universitatis is the genitive case, and it makes sense that it's more common (some department of Brown University). I've changed it to nominative case.  --Mgreenbe 12:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I searched for a view of a diploma online or some other type of Latin confirmation. The only useful thing I found was this link.  Apparently it should be "Universitas Brunoniensis."  I'm changing it to that now.  I'll try going by the registrar sometime to confirm whether or not this is true.  Sdej 06:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I found another listing of honorary degrees which states "Universitas Brunensis", which is confirmed by the Latin wikipedia, although I am no scholar of Latin. Checking with the registrar should help. InTheFlesh? 06:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * So when I went to the registrar's office a couple of days ago, I was told that all they had was a translated version of the diploma. No one could seem to get ahold of a standard Brown diploma in Latin.  Go figure. Sdej 07:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * O tempora, O Moses. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * My diploma reads "Universitas Brunensis". DMacks 02:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Haec studie nolunt mentem?

Ranking?
An unregistered IP added a sentence in the 'Academics' portion saying "Brown ranked 15th in the nation in 2006." Is this based on USN&WR? If so (and I think it is), is this a violation of copyright? I know that they especially tend to keep a tight lid on their rankings and analysis without subscription or purchase of their magazine. I have removed the uncited factoid. Thoughts? Sdej 04:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

That is not University Hall
The picture allegedly depicting University Hall is incorrectly labeled. The building to the left is in fact Hope (Hope!). The building to the right (which you can barely see) is University Hall. Not knowing the intentions of the editor that added this picture to the page (whether it was to add a picture of University Hall, or to simply include a picture of a campus building), I thought it best to bring this to the attention of others rather than modify the label. -seliopou 00:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Removing Pacifica House
I'm removing the following pending provision of a good verifiable source:


 * In recent years, the Society of the Pacifica House has claimed to be the continuation of the Franklin Society and the sole remaining secret society at Brown.

I put a request for references on the secret society section on March 4th. By March 6th Memento Vivire had supplied references for everything but the Society of the Pacific House, on which he placed a "citation needed" tag. No citation has been forthcoming and as DMacks has pointed out, the article on Society of the Pacifica House has been discussed in AfD and deleted, mostly due to verifiability problems.

I am therefore removing this sentence per the verifiability policy. It should not be added again unless it is accompanied by a good, verifiable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm wondering how successful a search for references will be. Finding documented information on a secret society would seem to me to be rather difficult.  The only thing I can direct you to is their website.  Pacifica house  But I totally agree with your not wanting to include it without sources.  Sdej 04:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not a new situation. Actually secret societies are fairly common submissions and, if truly secret, are routinely voted for deletion.


 * The verifiability policy says in so many words that it is non-negotiable. There are many things that may well be true but cannot be included Wikipedia. Facts in Wikipedia don't rest on the personal authority of contributors, they must be traceable to things published by a reputable source that a reader can check if desired.


 * If someone wants to include information about Pacifica house, they need to write a book about it and get it published (as has been done for Yale's Skull and Bones) or get an item into a mainstream newspaper or a college guide or something like that. If a reputable source has a story that says "Local legend has it that there is an institution called Pacifica House but nobody knows whether it's true," then that source could be used for a statement in the article that there is a local legend.


 * No source for Pacifica House? Then nothing about it may be included in the article. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Mocha link
I removed the following from the article's external links section: This has been added at least twice, but I don't see why it is relevant unless the reader is a Brown student. Also, the link has been added by anonymous IPs, not people who have been logged in to Wikipedia user accounts. If you feel that this link is important to include in the article, please explain why here. Otherwise, I'll remove it if it's added again. NBS525 21:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Mocha Schedule Planner


 * I agree that this link seems inappropriate at this time. According to its own description, "Mocha is a new way to browse Brown's courses online" and there is no mention of making the program available for other campuses (or the code available in general), so is clearly not useful for the general public. OTOH, the anon poster is within the brown.edu IP space. DMacks 22:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Although it may sound silly, Brown students are not necessarily the only people that are interested in Brown course offerings; nor would I say that this population small enough to be of little to no importance. In fact if you think about the people that are most likely to view the Brown wikipedia page that do not go to Brown, its relevance and usefulness seems to increase dramatically. Be it BOCA or Mocha, I think it would be a good idea to link to Brown's course offerings. Of course Mocha would be preferable, since BOCA is a human rights violation. -seliopou 00:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no objection to a BOCA link--it may be a travesty of a website, but it is the official word...primary source relevant to the topic at hand. Conversely, Mocha is a secondary source that is synced with BOCA on occasion, and self-described as "not supported or endorsed by Brown University in any way, and it is extremely unofficial." DMacks 00:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with DMacks here -- BOCA seems like it would be more appropriate to include because it is, after all, the official online listing of Brown courses, travesty of a website though it may be. NBS525 18:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Removing unsourced "miscellaneous traditions"
These have been marked as needing sources for at least a month, and nobody seems interested in providing them, so, per the verifiability policy I'm moving them here until someone sources them. Actually the rest of the "traditions" section is in almost equally bad shape. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Miscellaneous traditions

 * Seniors sleep in the Sciences Library some time before graduation.
 * Students have sex on the 13th floor of the Sciences Library. The restroom is usually used by all but the most adventuresome of students.
 * Students attempt to complete the "SciLi Challenge," a shot of liquor on each of the library's 14 floors.
 * It is said that a student who enters all seven of the Brown libraries during his or her first year will never marry anyone of the opposite sex.

SexPowerGod
There used to be a page for SexPowerGod, but it got deleted. Now the info from that page has been added here in the Brown page itself, but I think it's an old version of what had been there (I remember discussing changes to be made that appear here in their original form). Any way to dig up the last version of it and its talk prior to deletion? I have a feeling there used to be a Starf*ck page too, but don't know a good way to search the deleted-pages namespace. DMacks 05:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, found the Talk:SexPowerGod page, and made some changes in line with the feel there. DMacks 21:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

School of Engineering
It says that Brown has the oldest school of engineering in the Ivy League (a few lines above the claim that the School of Engineering came to be in 2010). It should say "oldest program in engineering" or "oldest engineering curriculum" or whatever is the factual phrase, and should state that this program was "reorganized" (or similar) into the School of Engineering in 2010, so as to make the situation more clear.

Removing claim to sole Egyptology department in Western Civilization
Dartmouth's claim of having the sole Western Egyptology department is incorrect. Oxford University has a long history of Egyptology, and has had an undergraduate degree program in the subject for many years.

This edit is a little baffling to me. First, the school in question is Brown not Dartmouth and the claim is that Brown has a department of Egyptology, not merely a degree. This is not to say that the field is not studied elsewhere -- UChicago, UPenn and Yale spring to mind immediately. However, none of these schools have a "Department of Egyptology," as such. At these universities, the field is more broadly considered as Near Eastern Civilization or such. However, Brown seems to be in the process of expanding the department, as evidenced by the change of name from "Egyptology" to "Egyptology and Western Asian Studies."82.226.175.224 12:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)micahross

Removing unsourced material: Naked donut run, Naked party.
The following items have been tagged with requests for references for about a week; none have been provided. I am removing them from the article and parking them them here. They can be reinserted in the article when they are accompanied with verifiable source citations, per Wikipedia's verifiability policy and citation and reliable sources guidelines.

The verifiability policy is linked at the bottom of every edit box, and can be summarized: 1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Naked donut run
At the end of each semester, usually on the night before the first day of exams (the last day of "reading period"), naked students walk (despite the word "run" in the name) through the Rockefeller and Sciences Libraries and hand out donuts to their peers. Neither the organization nor the precise timing of the "run" are publicly known, with the recruitment of participants usually occurring within 24 hours of the actual run. The role of head organizer is secretly passed from an upperclassman to an underclassman every year or two, and has usually been associated with one of the campus's co-ed fraternities or residential co-ops. If a naked donut run fails to occur during a semester, a new organizer will often take up the tradition the following term.
 * What kind of source would work for this? This definitely occurs and the description above is completely accurate. -Brown '10 138.16.59.166 (talk) 07:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

See the "Brown Traditions" page, it has references for both the naked donut run and the naked party.

Naked party
Every fall, the Brown Association for Cooperative Housing (BACH) throws an invitation-only "naked party" where all guests remove their clothes upon entry. The hosts aim to create a comfortable setting where people of all body types can celebrate the naked human body. In contrast to the sexually suggestive dancing that can be found at many college parties, dancing at a "naked party" is paradoxically much more tame and devoid of physical contact.

A capella
Back in my day, the a capella groups often sang under Wayland Arch; is this still done? The strong tradition of a capella appears not to be noted anywhere in the article. stylobix 19 May 2006
 * The a capella groups still sing under Wayland Arch, in addition to several other places around campus, such as the Mochamp arch. NBS525 23:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Seconded. This definitely still occurs. "Arch sings" as they are called, are extremely common for a cappella groups. (occurring multiple times per year). - Brown '10 138.16.59.166 (talk) 06:59, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Concentration List/Organization section
I've edited out the concentration/graduate school offerings list and placed it in a separate article; however, the entire section could probably use an overhaul. billobob 25 Jun 2006

History of Mathematics.
I edited the line that "Brown has the only undergraduate History of Mathematics Department in the world." The last faculty member who had an interest in teaching undergraduates retired in 1986. The last faculty member died in November 2005. Currently, there is one graduate student finishing a dissertation and no courses are offered.


 * I don't think it ever offered undergrad. degrees, did it? JJL 00:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it never did. Although it is a bit unencyclopedic, it might be interesting to preserve the history of the dept. micahross —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.226.175.224 (talk) 12:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Your statement, "The last faculty member who had an interest in teaching undergraduates retired in 1986," is incorrect. As of only a few years ago courses were still offered to undergraduates in the department.  Here are reviews of some of those courses, for example:   NBS525 13:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Why have the edits been reverted so that it looks as if the Hist. of Math. dept. is still active? It's not and all the books once associated with the dept. have been moved out of Wilbour Hall.Micahross 11:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)micahross

FROM ARMPIT OF THE IVIES TO HOT IVY
Consider adding a discussion about this part of Brown's history.

The basic points of this section would be:

1. From the late 19th century until after 1960, Brown was a regional college drawing students mostly from Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Nationally it was known as a less rigorous elite college, where less ambitious, more sociable sons could study. (I am trying to find the source for this - I read it in a history book while an undergrad at Brown, I think example students of this ilk were son of IBM founder, Tom Watson Jr., (1937) and son of the Standard Oil founder, John D. Rockefeller, Jr. (1897).)

2.In the early to mid 1970s, Brown had to draw down its endowment to meet operating expenses and was considered to be on the verge of bankruptcy.

3. The combination of Howard Swearer's leadership (he was president from 1977 to 1988) and the appeal of the New Cirriculum in attracting top applicants led Brown to be labelled the "hot Ivy". It had one of the lowest acceptance rates and in 1988 was ranked #4 in the U.S. News and World Report rankings (they put more emphasis on selectivity and reputation and less on financial resources).

4. From the mid 1980s, Brown differentiated itself through its reputation for drawing children of celebrities and left wing politicians, and as a hip and trendy place. The 1998 Vanity Fair article on this subject captured the dominant campus culture from the late 1980s to the mid 1990s.

(An aside: as the student body continues to become truly national and less New York-centric, and more conventional and career oriented, question whether Brown will continue to differentiate itself from financially stronger peers).

Cbmccarthy 14:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Pacifica House the remaining active secret society on campus?
I am confused to the "long standing consensus" of the diminished activities of Pacifica House at Brown. One quick example I found of recent Pacifica work is noted on the CCC (College Curriculum Council) Report on Grading, http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Dean_of_the_College/documents/Grading_Report.pdf Would someone please enlighten me before I revert the edit to include the portion in the 'secret society' section to include Pacifica as an active society?


 * Here's the last time we discussed it. "Present-day existence of some organization related to Brown calling itself 'Pacifica House'" isn't the issue. The specific problems to my mind is (still) lack of WP:V WP:RS for it being a "secret society", it being related to the secret societies from the days of yore, vs being anything WP:NOTABLE beyond any other student club giving itself that name. Note that the CCC report does not speak to the concept of a "secret society". The only ref to Pacifica House in it is to that organization's own publication (which again does not support the secret-society connection nor notability of the present-day group) and as a self-pub does not really qualify as a good source for info about the group itself. DMacks 06:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

There are two societies. One is Pacifica House, one is the Nathanael Greene Society, which appears to be new. I'm troubled by the reference to Athenian at Queens. It was a society at Queens College New York, not Brown university. The footnote is to a blog. I emailed the owner of the blog to find out which book he'd used, checked out the book, and found that the blog is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Junseth (talk • contribs) 17:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Trivia
The Trivia section says that Andrea Sachs from "The Devil Wears Prada" graduated from Brown. If I remember correctly, they went to Northwestern. The Northwestern page says this also... Can someone verify this for me? --Sbrools ( talk .  contribs ) 04:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Andrea goes to Brown in the novel, but attends Northwestern in the movie. The screenwriters felt that Northwestern was a stronger school to emphasis her journalism degree. Brown doesn't have such a degree, whereas Northwestern is known for at least "producing" strong journalists.

Modern Traditions Section
I deleted the entire section. It consisted of three "scandalous" parties and a naked run. These issues were carrying far too much weight in the article, and not painting an accurate, dispassionate picture about Brown. The issue of scandalous parties should maybe be condense to one small section, but I don't think it belongs in the article at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.249.92 (talk) 11:28, 16 February 2007


 * The modern traditions have had a long and troubled history on this page, but they have always endured. You're more than welcome start another discussion about whether they should be removed, but until then, it should stay. --seliopou 21:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I feel entirely justified in removing the Starf*ck section though. While Sex Power God is a big deal on campus, Starf*ck is poorly attended and just not a very important fact at Brown. It's a total joke that it should have a line in the index. There are dozens of traditions and recurring campus events that are far more significant. Whatever the past discussion has been on this issue, I'm definitely in the right on this. Its inclusion in an encyclopedia article on Brown University is indefensible. I feel the same way about the naked coop party, but I'll other users decide if it should be deleted. The coop party is of interest to a few hundred undergraduates, at most. Basically, the modern traditions section makes a point: Brown has some edgy parties and is sexually progressive. This is fine, and it's true. But a short item about sex power god would communicate that just fine--seperate info about all the coop party, naked doughnuts and starf*ck is overkill. It misrepresents Brown and makes for a sloppy encyclopedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.40.179 (talk) 13:07, 18 February 2007

Now the modern traditions sections seems to have been replaced by an anodyne discussion of Josiah Carberry supposedly being a "tradition" at Brown. Can any alumni vouch for this tradition's legacy? In the early 1990s, it seems to have been resurrected by the University as the source of the name of the snack bar in the new dorms built in 1992, Josiah's.

Cbmccarthy (talk) 17:33, 9 January 2013 (UTC) (Class of '93)

24 spoof video
I've removed its link twice now. Anyone at all think it's actually notable, please speak up... DMacks 19:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Who's Joe?
"Joe will never get into this college" ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.155.28.89 (talk) 09:59, 3 April 2007
 * It was childish vandalism. It's gone now. -- Rob C (Alarob) 12:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Boldly Brown
Should the Boldly Brown campaign for academic enrichment be added into the recent developments area of the university article? It may be fitting considering the developments that are taking place in campus expansion and faculty enlargement (an attempt to lower the student:faculty ratio). Seems to be a large component of the administration's undertakings. Also, swim center construction and the old stone bank? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.246.164 (talk) 20:12, 4 June 2007
 * I trimmed this section as it read as original research and also per relevance. I left the lead and fixed the reference. Anyways, --Tom 13:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've just updated the Boldly Brown material in line with the latest figures on the Boldly Brown website.
 * --Acephalica (talk) 19:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced material
Can be tagged or removed by an editor. I removed the following "Brown was also one of the first institutions to emphasize computer science as well as media studies, with its department of Modern Culture and Media, where students study film production, film criticism, and critical theory." since you probably won't find a source for this. If you do, please post it here and I will add this material back. Thanks! --Tom 20:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Rankings and International Recognition
Did someoen remove the rankings section on here? Also does anyone know about Brown's international reputation? Is it even that well known outside the US? Should this topic be included in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.245.75.17 (talk) 19:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Brown Template & Wikipedia Presence
I created the Brown University Template. Please feel free to add this to all the different pages that deal with Brown and add new content to the template as you see fit.

Furthermore, I would really like to see Brown's presence on wikipedia increased. There is a lot of random information about the school that is still missing or scattered in unorganized pages. I think we are missing a lot of pages that the other ivy league schools have. Maybe we should start thinking about breaking up the main page into separate sub-pages?

Pages that I would like to see created or worked on:


 * College and Graduate School (Brown University)
 * University Hall (Brown University)
 * Board of Trustees of Brown University
 * A separate page that discusses Brown's athletic programs
 * Information about notable buildings?

Apavlo 14:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless anybody vehemently objects, I am going to try to clean up the main page and break out certain sections into their own pages. I really like how the Dartmouth page is less cluttered than ours. In their article, long sections are broken out into separate pages with the link at the top of the section. I see this as having two benefits: (1) the main page has a cleaner look, and (2) things that may not be notable enough for the main article will certainly be germane in the sub-articles. I think that unless we start breaking things out into their own pages, the article is just going to get larger, messy, and unwieldy.

So to start, I am going to break out the following pages:


 * Traditions -> Brown University traditions
 * Athletics -> Brown University Bears
 * Presidents of Brown University -> Presidents of Brown University

I also realize that there is already the Encyclopedia Brunoniana which has a lot of information about various aspects of Brown, but it was written 15 years ago and does not contain all the information about things and it does not contain any pictures. Apavlo 03:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced Tag on New Curriculum
I just moved an tag from the bottom of the History section to the New Curriculum section. Per edit number 91472679 by GearedBull, this tag belonged on the New Curriculum section (see ). - AWeenieMan (talk) 02:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Some good refs are probably the Encyclopedia Brunoniana entry, the original GISP paper, and any of many BDH articles covering "how things are now" or "how to take advantage of your opportunities" or "they might change things". Thanks to short institutional memory among undergrads, there are many such articles over the years, such as this recent and detailed one. Can we slap those loose as "References" for the whole section or do we need to add specific ones as footnotes supporting specific statements? DMacks (talk) 02:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I tagged where I think we need citations. Some of them will probably be duplicates. I also uploaded a photo of Robinson Hall I took this summer (apparently there was one there before without copyright information). - AWeenieMan (talk) 03:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * We are down to 2 tags, both of which I believe can be satisfied with the original GISP paper, however without seeing the text myself I cannot be sure. It also might be worth citing the line about the curriculum itself being different then the GISP with the BDH article you linked. - AWeenieMan (talk) 04:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

College v. University
I am curious: If Harvard, Yale, and Columbia Universities, among others, retain at least nominal subunits known as Harvard College, etc., why doesn't Brown? Is the undergraduate college within Brown U. also known as "Brown University" in somewhat the same way as the whole university surrounding Dartmouth College is also known as "Dartmouth College"? Greener08 (talk) 12:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Within the university, the undergraduate programs are within an administrative unit called "The College", separate from the Graduate School and the Medical School. There is a separate dean in charge of each. DMacks (talk) 13:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Profile Section Badly Written
I've given the Profile section a cursory edit for really poor style, but it needs much more help.
 * --NoNonsenseHumJock (talk) 02:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Founding of Brown
Brown University is one of a very small number of American colleges or universities that were uniquely founded under the legal authority of a foreign power, i.e. the United Kingdom through the rule of various British monarchs with power and control over American territory during the colonial period. This unique identity has historic and legal significance to anyone interested in American colonial history and, also, the history of America's oldest universities. That finite colonial heritage also reveals Brown's historical ties to principles of religious diversity and political dissent as exemplified by the involvement of the Baptists in the foundation of Brown. Several of the personages listed in the Brown Charter are of actual historic interest to any review of this historic period. Some of these personages may have been temporarily forgotten over time for a variety of reasons and deserve research into their lives and accomplishments. Due to time constraints for various contributors to this article, it may take time for separate, accurate articles to be written concerning those Brown Charter signatories and advocates whose names are currently in red. The Brown Charter is of interest not only to lawyers and members of the Brown community but also to students of this historical period who wish to develop a better understanding of the figures who played roles not only in Brown's foundation but in influential undertakings in religion, politics, government, business, etc. in Rhode Island and in the other original thirteen colonies, e.g. Ezra Stiles. (In fact, it is likely that a large majority of the Brown community have never had the opportunity to read any part of the Brown Charter.) This section can certainly be enhanced over time with more streamlined citation format and further relevant factual contributions concerning the individuals named. However, impulsive deletion of parts of this section without careful consideration of the historic interest and relevance of these figures and the Brown Charter would be unhelpful to those seriously interested in Brown's foundation.

Brown's Involvement with the American Revolution
Today is the anniversary of American independence from the British Empire. The W3R route is of sufficient historic interest to the United States and to students of the American Revolutionary period that it has been declared an official site of interest by the National Park Service. Cursory review of its historical significance will reveal that the route involved leading figures in the American Revolutionary War, including George Washington, Rochambeau, James Manning and others. The start of the trail in Rhode Island also involved the conversion of the oldest building at Brown into military barracks for American and allied soldiers, which is an interesting historic fact unknown even to many Brown students and graduates.

Stephen Hopkins was significantly involved in the American Revolution and in Brown's foundation. The famous Trumbull portrait featuring him is directly relevant to both Brown and one of the most important events in the American Revolution. This section can certainly be enhanced over time with more streamlined citation format and further relevant factual contributions concerning the individuals named. However, impulsive deletion of parts of this section without careful consideration of the historic interest and direct relevance of these events and historic documents would be unhelpful.

Discussion of open curricula at Curriculum
I've done some work at Curriculum, including making sections for the different types of curricula at US colleges. Any work that people can do to expand the section on open curricula there would be much appreciated.


 * - Mgcsinc (talk) 17:47, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Universities COTM Nomination
Hello Brown University contributors. I just wanted to let you all know that Brown University has been renominated for next month's WikiProject Universities Collaboration of the Month. If you'd like to take advantage of this opportunity, be sure to vote for the university. While you're there, consider helping improve one of our current Collaborations of the Month.

Happy editing! -Mabeenot (talk) 19:47, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Please correct the incorrect data under admission: "For the class of 2013 the undergraduate..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by E009821 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Lead commendation
I wanted to commend the editors of this article for maintaining an informative and neutral lead devoid of ranking-cruft and other un-encyclopedic and non-notable superlatives. Truly rare to witness on Wikipedia university articles without significant whining and arm twisting. Madcoverboy (talk) 04:33, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Founders and proclamations
Removing this content from the article since Wikipedia is not a directory. Storing it here for now. Madcoverboy (talk) 20:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Petitioners for the Creation of Brown University
At the General Assembly of the Governor and Company of the English Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, in New England, in America, begun and holden by adjournment at East Greenwich, within and for the Colony aforesaid, on the last Monday in February, in the year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Sixty-four, and fourth of the reign of His Most Sacred Majesty George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, and so forth. AN ACT FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY WITHIN THIS COLONY

"Petitioners" and "undertakers in the valuable design ... to found, endow, order, and govern a College or University within this Colony":

Daniel Jenckes, Esq., Nicholas Tillinghast, Esq., Nicholas Gardiner, Esq., Col. Josias Lyndon, Col. Elisha Reynolds, Peleg Thurston, Esq., Simon Pease, Esq., John Tillinghast, Esq., George Hazard, Esq., Col. Job Bennet, Nicholas Easton, Esq., Arthur Fenner, Esq., Mr. Ezekiel Gardner, Mr. John Waterman, Mr. James Barker, Jr., Mr. John Holmes, Solomon Drown, Esq., Mr. Samuel Winsor, Mr. Joseph Sheldon, Charles Rhodes, Esq., Mr. Nicholas Brown, Col. Barzillai Richmond, Mr. John Brown, Mr. Gideon Hoxsey, Mr. Thomas Eyres, Mr. Thomas Potter, Jr., Mr. Peleg Barker, Mr. Edward Thurston, Mr. William Redwood, Joseph Clarke, Esq., Mr. John G. Wanton, and Mr. Thomas Robinson,

Founding Fellows and Trustees of Brown University


"... known in law by the name of Trustees and Fellows of the College or University in the English Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, in New England, in America...":

Hon. Stephen Hopkins, Esq., The Hon. Joseph Wanton, Jr., Esq., The Hon. Samuel Ward, Esq., The Hon. William Ellery, Esq., John Tillinghast, Esq., Simon Pease, Esq., James Honyman, Esq., Nicholas Easton, Esq., Nicholas Tillinghast, Esq., Darius Sessions, Esq., Joseph Harris, Esq., Francis Willet, Esq., William Logan, Esq., Daniel Jenckes, Esq., George Hazard, Esq., Nicholas Brown, Esq., Jeremiah Niles, Esq., Joshua Babcock, Esq., Mr. John G. Wanton, The Rev. Edward Upham, The Rev. Jeremiah Condy, The Rev. Marmaduke Brown, The Rev. Gardner Thurston, The Rev. Ezra Stiles, The Rev. John Greaves, The Rev. John Maxson, The Rev. Samuel Winsor, The Rev. John Gano, The Rev. Morgan Edwards, The Rev. Isaac Eaton The Rev. Samuel Stillman, The Rev. Samuel Jones, The Rev. James Manning, The Rev. Russel Mason, Col. Elisha Reynolds, Col. Josias Lyndon, Col. Job Bennet, Mr. Ephraim Bowen, Joshua Clarke, Esq., Capt. Jonathan Slade, John Taylor, Esq., Mr. Robert Strettle Jones, Azariah Dunham, Esq., Mr. Edward Thurston, Jr., Mr. Thomas Eyres, Mr. Thomas Haszard, Mr. Peleg Barker,

And it is further enacted and ordained by the authority aforesaid that each Trustee and Fellow, as well those nominated in this Charter as all that shall hereafter be duly elected, shall, previous to their acting in a corporate capacity, take the engagement of allegiance prescribed by the law of this Colony to His Majesty King George the Third, his heirs and rightful successors to the crown of Great Britain, which engagement shall be administered to the present Trustees and Fellows by the Governor or Deputy Governor of this Colony, ....

At the annual meeting of the corporation on September 4, 1782, the first after the French troops evacuated the college edifice, the chancellor “moved that the college Charter be read. And it thereby appearing... that in consequence of the American Revolution, many things therein were evidently inconsistent with our present state of National Independence,” a committee of three was elected “to revise the same.” Later in the day the committee presented a new engagement which omitted the oath of allegiance to King George: “You [name of individual] being elected a [Trustee or Fellow] of the College or University in the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, do solemnly engage, that you will faithfully execute the said office, agreeably to the Charter of the said College or University, to the best of your Judgment or ability.” The committee also expressed the opinion that the Corporation should “report the necessity of this alteration to the General Assembly, & request their approbation of the measure; & their establishment in future of the present form, or such other as they shall think fit to substitute.”

Source: Brown University Charter

See also: Walter C. Bronson’s The History of Brown University (Providence, 1914).

Slavery section
It looks like there is a minor edit skirmish over the inclusion of material about slavery and the history of Brown University. I personally like the material and think it should be included as it's interesting and well-sourced. However, I have some sympathy with the assertion that it's just too long and is given undue weight (my sympathy is much more with the former than the latter given that this topic has historically been given undue weight since it is shameful and a dark stain on the institution's past). Why not compromise by giving a brief overview here and then linking to a new article with more detail? ElKevbo (talk) 06:48, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I support this proposal. -Mabeenot (talk) 06:57, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I also support this proposal. I haven't done any looking, but there may be opportunities to merge this with information about similar studies done at other schools. - Mgcsinc (talk) 07:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Weather risk
This may be a weird question for an Ivy League school but has the campus ever had buildings damaged or classes canceled due to hurricanes?

Like the New England Hurricane of 1938? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.196.0.50 (talk) 07:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes of course. Also in 1954. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.172.214.170 (talk) 23:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

More recently, classes were closed on October 29 and 30, 2012, for Hurricane Sandy.

Kzirkel (talk) 01:18, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, sometimes Brown closes because of severe winter weather. Classes were cancelled Feb 7, 2013 ; Jan 3, 2014 ; January 26, 2015; and February 9, 2015 because of winter blizzards. Sorry, I don't have citations for the last two, I don't think a press release was issued. Is this information important, anyway?

Kzirkel (talk) 13:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Moving 'Student organizations'
The Student organizations section of this article has been steadily expanding lately. If there are no objections, I'm going to go ahead and move it to its own article. - Mgcsinc (talk) 17:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Joukowsky Institute
Why do I not find anything about the Joukowsky Institute for Archeology, which seems to be a not very unimportant part of Brown University? cf. http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/ --Dlugacz (talk) 19:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a separate wikipedia page on it: Joukowsky Institute for Archaeology and the Ancient World. Not sure why no one has integrated info about it here, but feel free to -- anyone can edit wikipedia! -- Mgcsinc (talk) 22:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Request
According to their website, Brown University has access to Europa World Plus. Is there anyone here who wants to download some entries for me?--Antemister (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Title of RI colonial governors
I've removed the reference to "Royal Governors" and "King George III" in addressing Rhode Island colonial governors Stephen Hopkins and Samuel Ward. Like all other governors of the Rhode Island colony, these men were not royal appointees, as were found in many of the other colonies. Instead, they were elected by the freemen of the colony, as outlined in Rhode Island's Royal Charter of 1663. The only time in its history when Rhode Island had a royal appointee as governor was when the colony was thrown into the Dominion of New England with all the other northeastern colonies, and Sir Edmund Andros was appointed governor over all the associated colonies.Sarnold17 (talk) 00:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Brown Starr - business school?
When I look at this page: CV Starr Program in Business, Entrepreneurship and Organizations I see an undergraduate business concentration (albeit not AACSB-accredited) that I will thereafter refer to as Brown Starr. But is Brown Starr an actual business program? If so, Brown is not "one of only two schools in the Ivy League with neither a business school nor a law school" anymore since it would technically have a business school, if undergraduate-only.--Xiaoshan Math (talk) 03:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It appears to just be a concentration that is "sponsored by the departments of Economics and Sociology and the School of Engineering." That seems to be pretty far away from a dedicated business school. ElKevbo (talk) 03:28, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Onsager
It is interesting that Brown claims Nobel Laureate Onsager as one of their own. He was denied tenure and sent away. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.66.130 (talk) 13:56, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I dont think it is reasonable to suppose that Brown makes any such claim based on his inclusion in this wikipedia article which is not maintained by Brown university. Someone clearly included Onsager based on the fact that he was at a given point a faculty member there. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:48, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Political culture
User:RIConLaw1243 added several paragraphs on Brown's political culture. Needless to say, phrases like "notoriously" and "infamously" liberal are non-neutral and the examples given lack historical context for inclusion. I'd welcome any thoughts on how to go about crafting a few sentence or paragraph providing a sober overview on the current political climate, major historical events, and influential people, not creating a laundry list of drummed-up fauxtroversies. Madcoverboy (talk) 01:08, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring to note that Brown is "not...up to par with the other Ivy League institutions"
Hellyeahdog is edit warring to insert the following statement into this article: "Brown is considered not to be up to par with the other Ivy League institutions." Four other editors, including me, have reverted this edit. I can't speak for the other editors but I object to inserting this text as it's only been included with one source (U.S. News & World Report) that doesn't explicitly support the statement. In any case, edit warring is unacceptable and will likely lead to a block if it continues. ElKevbo (talk) 01:36, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The source provided also does not seem to support the claim implicitly.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Too late, I saw the behavior and gave a 24h/EW block before I saw the talkpage here. He'd already received 2 warnings. DMacks (talk) 03:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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COI -- I am the director of communications for the Brown Graduate School and respectfully request consideration of additional information to round out the view of the institution.

Under History, in the second paragraph, after the reference to Engineering, please add the history of graduate education at Brown: Brown was one of the early doctoral granting U.S. institutions in the late 19th century, adding master and doctoral studies in 1887.

Academics: Graduate Education

The first Brown University master’s degrees were awarded in 1888 and the first PhD in 1889. In 1903, a Graduate Department was established with its own dean. In May 1927, the Graduate Department became the Graduate School.

The Graduate School now offers more than 80 graduate programs, including those of the School of Engineering, the School of Public Health, and the School of Professional Studies. Graduate students are a quarter of the student population. The number of master’s programs and students has grown in the past decade. In 2016, the Graduate School conferred 626 master’s degrees, compared with 239 in 2007.

The Graduate School honors distinguished alumni with the Horace Mann Medal.

From its earliest years, women have been a part of doctoral education at Brown. Women were admitted to graduate study at Brown beginning in 1892. The first woman to receive a doctoral degree was Martha Tarbell, who received a PhD in German studies in 1897. The first Asian American receiving a PhD was Sze-Chen Liao in 1921. In the next decade, the first African American PhD, Samuel M. Nabrit, received a degree in biology in 1932; Jose Amor y Vazquez was the first Hispanic American to receive a graduate degree, in Hispanic studies in 1957; and Lora Lee Johnson, the first Native American, obtained a PhD in classics in 1984. Bjlarson (talk) 19:44, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

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Is George Lincoln Rockwell a notable alumnus?
Tmnh07 has begun an edit war to remove George Lincoln Rockwell from this article's listing of notable alumni. I contend that he is unquestionably notable and I dispute the reasons that Tmnh07 used in his or her most recent edit summary ("first, Rockwell is not actually a graduate of Brown University, so inclusion is misleading; second, American Nazi Party has no substantive following"). First, one does not have to graduate to be an alumnus; that is a common (but understandable!) misunderstanding. And the section of the article is titled "Notable people" anyway. Second, it doesn't seem relevant that the "American Nazi Party has no substantive following" as that (a) seems to inappropriately require contemporary membership in a historic organization and (b) unreasonably assumes that only organizations with a "substantive following" can have importance. There may be other grounds for omitting this alumnus but those particular reasons are poor ones. Finally, I caution editors who may want to omit this alumnus solely or primarily because he is embarrassing or portrays the university in a poor light; those are unacceptable reasons for censoring a Wikipedia article. ElKevbo (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * He's definitely not an alumnus. You have to graduate for that. Notable person - that's up for discussion. Is there anyone else listed in that section who attended Brown, didn't graduate, and didn't return as faculty or staff later? -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * All others who are given a visual likeness are graduates of the University. I'd like to also articulate that the American Nazi Party has NEVER had a substantive following--and by that I mean that no member of the party has held elected office before (at least to my knowledge). Finally, The American Nazi Party is not an organization--it's a political party; I'm not denying its importance (though that too may be called into question, I suppose), but it seems to me to be questionable as to why we'd want to feature in a place of relative prominence--especially in place of other more widely known alumni--given that this particular political party has never exerted a significant sway on American politics. Tmnh07 (talk) 21:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * No, you really don't have to "graduate" to be an alumnus of an institution. I'd personally prefer if that were the widely accepted and used definition but colleges and universities - presumably in an attempt to cast a broader net for fundraising and prestige-claiming purposes - very widely use the term to refer to anyone who matriculated.  However, it is nice to have a word for that class of people; we don't really need another word for "graduate."
 * Back on the real topic: I'm perfectly fine if this alumnus is omitted from this article on sensible, NPOV grounds. This is an old university (by U.S. standards!) so we need to have some criteria for inclusion in this article.  I'm not sure that "graduate" is really the best criterion - I'm betting that there are many very prominent non-graduates - but if you come to a consensus on this as a criterion then please (a) rename the section so it's explicit for readers and (b) double-check that the criteria have been consistently applied. ElKevbo (talk) 22:32, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd say if we wouldn't put Ted Turner in, we can safely leave Rockwell out. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * *headdesk* I'm just digging myself deeper here, aren't I? *wanders aimlessly away* -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Brown's religious freedom reflects that of Rhode Island
At its foundation, Brown was the first college in the United States to accept students regardless of their religious affiliation, reflecting the religious liberty that Roger Williams established in what would become the Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.

The italicized text is what I put in, that got taken right out for lacking a source.

I've got better things to do with my time than look for references saying there was religious freedom in colonial Rhode Island. Anyway, that’s how I think the article could be improved. deisenbe (talk) 19:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Brown's student acceptance regardless of religious denomination, not affiliation
The current representation of initial student acceptance at Brown's founding is misleading, as the referenced source on p. 30 does not delve into what is meant by Religious Denominations on that page. The details are dealt with more fully in the second chapter of that source where Jews are shown to be exceptionally accepted, but definitely not deists or atheists. The link to Religious identity for "religious affiliation" is inaccurate and should instead link to Religious denomination. My suggestion: ''At its foundation, Brown was the first college in the U.S. to accept students of any religious denomination, barring atheists and deists. '' 2600:6C51:7E80:46D4:1C45:A39F:A09E:82AF (talk) 07:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC) Romano

Undergraduate Acceptance Rate in Lede
The undergraduate acceptance rate has been in the lede for less than two weeks, contrary to ElKevbo's assertion that it has "been in the article for several years." [1 ] Even if this outdated stat belongs in the article, it does not belong in the lede. Dosafrog (talk) 16:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Some version of this sentence has been in the lede since at least December of 2012 and this specific phrasing has been in the lede since at least February of 2018. Since this is long-standing and appears to have been uncontroversial for many years, it's incumbent on you to establish that there is a new consensus to remove the information. ElKevbo (talk) 16:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Moreover, your claim that the information has "been in the lede for less than two weeks" is especially misleading because the edit you're citing as having "added" the information was a reversion of an edit that you yourself made solely to remove this sentence. ElKevbo (talk) 16:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Even if it happens to have longstanding existence, I'm still confused as to how its inclusion is helpful in any way. Dosafrog (talk) 17:06, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The lede is intended to be a summary of what is in the body of the article. There is an entire section of the article dedicated to admissions so it's not unreasonable to have one sentence in the lede summarizing what is in that section. ElKevbo (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the exact percentage figure for just undergraduates. It's inapposite for this page; it belongs in College of Brown University instead.Dosafrog (talk) 17:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

"Starfuck (party)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Starfuck (party). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 15 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm Talk 03:53, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

"Starf*ck (party)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Starf*ck (party). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 15 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm Talk 03:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

2nd 'Notes' tab should be removed
In my opinion, the 2nd 'Notes' tab should be removed as it is unnecessary to have 2 'Notes' tabs in my opinion. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 14:51, 14 July 2022 (UTC)