Talk:C. A. Patrides

DYK suggestion
Kiefer .Wolfowitz 03:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC) I suggest the following as a draft:

Did you know?
 * ... that "one of the greatest scholars of Renaissance literature of his generation", Constantinos Patrides, carried messages for the Greek Resistance against German Occupation as a boy?

Comment: It would be better to replace this quotation, by University of Michigan colleague George Bornstein, with so another quote. The best source would be Northrop Frye, because of his stature (at least in my ignorant judgment) and because a similar judgment is quoted by Summers & Pebworth (at U Michigan-Dearborn)---so even the quotation is not OR!

Also, I have been unable to check on the 3 Milton Quarterly articles. I remember quaint euphemisms, roughly like "the role of an English Professor at a British University is especially suited for a bachelor", "illness associated with a way of life that is subject to prejudice", etc. I suppose that his colleagues wished to preserve the privacy with which his life was lived. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 06:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't read the Milton Quarterly articles either. If you're saying that none of them explicitly mentions the cause of death, then the sentence about AIDS needs to be removed, doesn't it?  --  Kenatipo    speak! 16:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, Bornstein says he won 2 Guggenheims but the Foundation website only shows one in 1960. Our List of Guggenheim Fellows for 1960 shows Patrides 1960, 1963, so that needs more research.  --  Kenatipo    speak! 16:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Kenatipo!
 * Professor Gordon Campbell of the University of Leicester ---another Honored Scholar of the Milton Society of America, a student of C.A.P., and an author of an especially warm tribute in the Milton Quarterly--- said that the article "looks fine". He suggested correcting the publication year of Milton and the Christian Tradition as 1966---I wonder whether 1969 was a reprinting year .... Professor Campbell suggested our noting that "he was known as 'Dinos' in England and 'Dean' in the U.S.". Alas, Professor Campbell does not have any pictures of him.
 * In the Michigan Daily, the LSA College Dean, economist Peter Steiner, called C.A.P. "Dean Patrides", I remember.
 * About AIDS being the source of death, I remember the Michigan Daily mentioning AIDS, because of conversations about how healthy he appeared in 1985, how his tanning regenerated after his travels, and (honestly) his twinkling eyes. I'll double check my sources.
 * I am delighted to report this OR: CONSTANTINOS PATRIDES (UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN), (Zip code: 48104) $500 to HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN FUND on 05/30/86 (arguably the leading organization fighting discrimination against lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transexuals). (Young editors may have trouble imagining the United States in the 1980s, which is described by Randy Shilts's  And_the_Band_Played_On, a book and film. 03:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC))


 * Best regards,
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 17:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

UPDATE: Kiefer .Wolfowitz 21:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC) Did you know?
 * ... that "one of the greatest scholars of Renaissance literature of his generation", Constantinos A. Patrides earned a medal for heroism from the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem for his boyhood service with the Greek Resistance against the German Occupation in World War II?

Rename article C. A. Patrides
I'm thinking we should rename the article C. A. Patrides. That's the name on his books and his name in the LoC catalog. --  Kenatipo   speak! 17:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Absolutely right. I can move it if you like. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 17:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Be my guest! --  Kenatipo    speak! 17:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I requested that an administrator move the page onto the ( now wrongly blanked) C. A. Patrides (former) redirect page. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 18:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * DONE, thanks to administrator Anthony Appleyard.  Kiefer .Wolfowitz 21:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of heroic, brilliant, elegant Greek-Americans ... : George Anastaplo needs an article
George Anastaplo merits an article. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 05:31, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Picture needed
Professor Campbell lacked a photograph.

Perhaps heroes would ask George Bornstein (UM Ann Arbor), Summers & Pebworth (UM Dearborn), the Chair at UM Ann Arbor, and the contact at the Patrides Lecture at York University?

I shall ask the King of Sweden and Paul Newman! :)

Kiefer .Wolfowitz 06:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Announcement from the 1987 Milton Quarterly page 40

 * "Patrides Lecture Series (1987)

The University of York is establishing a series of distinguished lectures on seventeenth century topics, to run for ten years, in memory of C.A. Patrides, to be called The Patrides Lectures. Any financial support towards this project would be gratefully received. Please write for more information, and/or send a cheque (in sterling or dollars, made out to The University of York) to:
 * Hermione Lee
 * Department of English
 * University of York
 * Heslington
 * York YO1 5DD"

The Patrides lectures continue still, as noted kindly by Charles Matthews. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 06:22, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Kiefer, old boy
The Patriarch of Jerusalem is not the Pope. Dying of AIDS is not an achievement. --  Kenatipo   speak! 14:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

The quotations you've put in the headings, however apt, are probably a violation of the MOS. I'm uneasy about making C.A.P. a posthumous poster-child for any cause --  you've told me he was very private about his private life and that his colleagues respected this. We should respect it also. --  Kenatipo   speak! 15:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * HI Kenatipo!
 * As usual, you are right.
 * Bornstein wrote, "His Holiness, the Patriarch of Rome Jerusalem" (corrected, with new italics added by me, 07:00, 3 November 2011 (UTC)). I naively believed Wikpedia when Patriarch of Rome redirects to Rome. My experience of the Greek Orthodox Church is limited to driving by the churches in the background for The Deer Hunter and a Ukrainian Xmas.
 * About MOS. Quotations from Milton's poetry may be sacrificed for compliance with MOS.
 * I wrote expansively, trusting that needed correction would be forthcoming.
 * About his private life, I may have written that I believe that he seems to have been very private about his personal life, because his friends & colleagues wrote obliquely. On the other hand, C.A.P. did write about a problem of "conformity" in [Milton?]'s time and "our own", and he made a generous donation to HRCF knowing that it would be public record. I'll examine your edits and mine, and ensure sobriety.
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 07:36, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, Kiefer. I'm an inclusionist  --  I even encouraged you to add the anecdote about the first day of class, remember?  I never knew there were so many holy men styled "His Holiness"; the things you learn on Wikipedia!  Bornstein doesn't actually use the word "Rome" in his UofM Memorial, and "His Holiness" (based on a quick look at the ol' Wikipedia) is not a style of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem (maybe it was when C.A.P. got his medal).  As an inclusionist, I wouldn't delete your apothegms in the headings -- but someone else will if the article ever goes through GA review.  Your enthusiasm for the subject is refreshing and creative -- keep it going!  --  Kenatipo    speak! 15:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You are correct. Switching Jerusalem and Rome was an inexplicable error, for whose correction you deserve my thanks. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 07:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For his DOB, I think there's a birth certificate available at . I just wasn't willing to sign up for the "free trial".  --  Kenatipo    speak! 15:49, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Kiefer, I hadn't re-read the article after your recent changes --  I didn't know you scrubbed it so thoroughly.  If you are certain that the Michigan Daily mentioned the cause of death, then it is appropriate to mention in the article; people always want to know why someone dies young.  If we're certain the cause of death was reported, then it is also fitting, in my opinion, to note that he was nursed by his mother and sister at the end (understanding that many may not consider this "encyclopedic").  --  Kenatipo    speak! 17:50, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I removed the AIDS information, because WP:RS does not state an exception of my having metaphysical certitude, and we have not been able to check the student newspaper. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 07:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I distinctly remember you bragging about the virility of your long-term memory (hahaha). --  Kenatipo    speak! 00:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Make that virality!  Kiefer .Wolfowitz 08:54, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

"Despite being a boy"
Perhaps erase "despite"? just "Being a boy" conveys all the information. Sasha (talk) 03:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "While still a boy ..."? Kiefer .Wolfowitz 17:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is even better Sasha (talk) 18:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good writing is gold. Better re-writing is platinum! Your comments are platinum. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 18:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK reviewer feedback
Neat subject. Just some thoughts from looking at it, no need to do anything.

1. Notify (regarding front page appearance) the uni where the man has a named chair and (if you can) his family. People are really touched when we run things on the front page...and this sort of shmoozing makes us more professional and can lead to image donations and the like. Let them know now that it is coming. Then when it goes in queue, let them know the exact time. It is a small gesture, but builds goodwill and bridges to the real world.

2. I think American English makes more sense given the man was born and died here.

3. The memorials read more pleasantly in terms of giving a feel for the man. I had to struggle a little with some of the hard writing here. Consider simplifying the number of literary or the like abstract concepts mentioned within same sentences. Also, simplify the sentence structure grammatically. Really just look at the other online sources and see how they give a better quick feel for the man. Perhaps Wehwalt can advise. He has a very nice touch on bios and on the narrative flow that makes reading his stuff pleasant (lots of learning still..but smooth and fun).

4. An image would really be tits. See if you can get a donation.

5. Perhaps getting any books by him, there is dust jacket bio info (family)? Also, looking at his published papers and Ph.D. thesis might be helpful a Ph.D. is formally published). Both for the content as well as sometimes there are snippets of biography.  I know some people put a resume in their thesis for example.

6. Onwards to GA...

TCO (talk) 14:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks TCO for your help.
 * Professor Campbell didn't have a photo. Michigan's homepage doesn't list Bornstein's email. Dearborn doesn't list Summers or Pebworth, surprisingly. I asked for help at the Michigan Daily and University of Michigan pages. But I shall do so again.
 * I don't think it would take so much to get the article to GA status, when I consider your suggestion.
 * Best regards, Kiefer .Wolfowitz 17:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, TCO. Can you be more specific about your #3?  I don't know what you mean by "hard writing".  And, when you say "simplify the sentence structure grammatically" do you mean make 2 sentences where we have a long sentence with a semicolon in the middle?  --  Kenatipo    speak! 00:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(1)"The resistance was led by the Greek Communist Party, which he later regarded as a danger, when he identified himself as a "firm anti-Communist";[3] his anti-Communism was Christian and humanitarian, the same traditions which nourished his criticisms of conformity in Renaissance England or his own time." (That's the one that felt like we had about 6 different abstract concepts running around.)

(2) Yup. Wiki in general overuses semicolons. They have been dying out in prose for about 100 years now. I think Wiki does it to compensate for not being real academic work. This place is the only one were I encounter so many.

Also, look at some of the other sentences that have several clauses or several clauses along with parenthetical commaed phrases. There's a way to do it wrong with being too stachato. But I think you need more stachato. Also consider that if the material is "hard" (e.g. literary schools of thought) then keep the sentences simpler.

But seriously just count words in the sentences of those pieces and compare to sentence length here. It's not awful. But...well...I just enjoyed reading the source docs more and felt more easily drawn in. See what you can do!

(3) Nothing to do with hardness, but one I don't understand:  "His knowledge of languages and literatures enabled him to place texts in their historical contexts." What does that mean? That he could read original versions? That he could read other literature of the time? (from the same location?) Read historical primary sources? Maybe the whole thing could be expanded to more of a paragraph with some examples and exposition?

TCO (talk) 00:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, TCO. If we follow your advice, we'll have the article up to GA status in the near future.   --  Kenatipo    speak! 00:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The answer to your last #3 is here in the middle of the Roland Frye quote and the next paragraph.  The idea of contextualization is so important that I'm considering quoting both paragraphs in the footnotes.  --  Kenatipo    speak! 01:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I had seen that passage. It is still kind of vague. Maybe read a few of the essays and see him doing it in action? Someone will accuse you of OR-SYNTH, but try walking as close to that line as you can. You are trying to get us information...not to push some weird theory or the like. Sometimes you can kind of build something by using quotes and it is a bit less of an assertion. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_reptile#Justification]. Here you do have the Fry remark which is a global assertion and then maybe you can bundle an example under (or in a quotebox).TCO (talk) 01:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Vague? From academics, those 2 paragraphs are as clear as bells (lol!)  --  Kenatipo    speak! 15:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi friends!
 * I tried to enliven the discussion of his scholarship with concrete examples, each of which is a short declarative sentence easily verifiable: About Angels, Adam and Eve, and farting. (Before GA, I'd have to provide page references to the study editions, of course.) If challenged, they could just be moved.
 * I'm sorry that personal matters delay my contributions. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 19:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Misc. questions for Kiefer W., et. al.
Kiefer, when did the English Reformation end? In the Achievements section, we say Milton was a literary leader in the Reformation and the Civil War. The Reformation in England started in 1534 with Henry VIII, but Milton wasn't born until 1608. Do you see what I mean? The wiki article on the English Reformation says it was a series of events in the 16th century.

The second question is an MoS thing. Shouldn't the names of "schools" or "periods" of poetry, for example, be capitalized? To me, there's a big difference between a romantic poet and a Romantic poet. Same with metaphysical and modernist. I'd appreciate your thoughts. --  Kenatipo   speak! 00:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Kenatipo!
 * Methodists often regard their movement as a reformation in the reformation, so who can say when the Reformation ended? Certainly Milton and his fellow Puritans viewed themselves as reformers and as part of the Reformation.
 * I don't know about the MoS questions. I'm sorry for being terse, but I have some personal matters to attend to.
 * Thank you for your work!
 * Best regards,
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 19:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Kiefer. Take your time — there's no deadline!  --  Kenatipo    speak! 19:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)