Talk:Captive orcas

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Untitled
This article was created by merging a series of articles on captive killer whales that had each been flagged for deletion. Please help to improve the content and references. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Size Issue
As of the date of this comment, this article is just over 62k in size. According to WP:SIZE, part of the Manual of Style, very long articles should generally be split to improve readability. (There used to be technical issues with articles over 32k, but these are no longer significant: many articles including Killer Whale, the parent of this article, are longer).

The relevant rules of thumb for splitting articles, and combining small pages:

One suggestion from  Sawblade05  has been to split out the sections on individual orcas into a separate article, such as List of captive orcas, which would initially be around 40kb long, while this article would come down to around 19kb.

Short-Term Proposal
Complete the AfD discussion on the small articles on individual orcas, many of which seem likely to resolve to merge and redirect to this article. Complete that process, and clean up.

Longer-Term Proposal
Discuss the best way to resolve the size issue here. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: The size calculation applies to main body prose, e.g. excludes footnotes, see also etc. As an experiment, copying the visible main body text (not in edit mode) and pasting into a sandbox gives an article where hidden text such as references and image links is dropped. Main body prose sizes are: Still large, but perhaps acceptable. Well below the largest article in Wikipedia, 2007 in Iraq at 448,182 bytes. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * First part of article: 15,291 bytes
 * Second part - individuals: 31,262 bytes
 * Total: 46,553


 * Sounds good to me. I am currently at work during the week so the long discussions that I am having now are stuck on the weekends. I feel it should be split, but I think I would like to see some more consensus (as I only had a few that thought it was a good idea and one sent me a message that we should hold off) on the split and how it should be done.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 09:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I support a split. The article has an awkward break between the more general discussion and the list of individuals. The general part seem likely to expand, giving more information on capture and captivity history, techniques, issues etc. The list of individuals is likely to expand also, but with a different focus as a series of short biographies and character sketches. If nobody objects, I will do the split this weekend (March 7th). Aymatth2 (talk) 15:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Since nobody objected, the split of content to List of captive orcas was completed on March 7, 2009, and most of the split material removed from this article. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:46, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Tilikum
I am changing "He has been involved in three human deaths and is known for siring whales." to "He has been involved in three human deaths and is a prolific sire." It makes more sense; he's a whale, so of course he sires whales. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.39 (talk) 10:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Of pregnancies and friends
This discussion is at Talk:List of captive orcas, and Talk:List of captive orcas. Don Lammers (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

serious congratulations on neutrality
since this issue can be stressful i was concerned before reading with what i might find. to my delight this article is mostly npov and has numerous citations. well done to the editors involved for making this an informative article without losing sight of neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukrpickaxe (talk • contribs) 14:02, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Media coverage
The Blackfish film should definitely be mentioned here (as I have done), as it's one of the few documentaries to focuses on THIS topic specifically, hence it should have a paragraph on THIS page to give some detail of it's content. It's no good just offering a link to the film, with no context as to what the film is about on THIS page, given it's content is intrinsically about the topic of THIS page. The paragraph added gives such info, succinctly, and without colouring an angle or POV on it's content or views contained – as is appropriate, per WP policy. Jimthing (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that the information is relevant and useful. But I think that it should be trimmed down significantly. If someone wants to know more about the documentary they can follow an external link and/or check if there is a WP article for Blackfish. The same verbose edit has also been attempted on the Tilkum article. How many people who come to this article are going to be looking for answers to the following questions:
 * What film festival hosted the premiere of a documentary on captive orcas?
 * What was the date of the film festival premiere?
 * What channel did the documentary appear on in the UK?
 * On what date could a BBC viewer first see the documentary?
 * Was the appearance on BBC part of a long running documentary series?
 * What was the name of said documentary series?
 * DouglasCalvert (talk) 03:29, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for renaming as "Killer whales in captivity"
It is proposed to rename the article from ''Captive killer whales" to "Killer whales"" in captivity which better describes the scope of the content of this article. The present name invokes the same understanding as List of captive orcas whereas individual orcas are not described here but the subject in general for which imho the proposed name is better suited. AshLin (talk) 16:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Dorsal fin collapse
"After the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill, the dorsal fins of two male resident killer whales who had been exposed to the oil collapsed, and the animals subsequently died." This sentence has no substance, should be revised to deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:628D:9800:E592:2593:84F0:1CBC (talk) 16:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Deaths only for SeaWorld
Why are there deaths listed for SeaWorld but not for any other marine mammal parks? 72.238.65.44 (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Problem with lifespan section
According to the wikipedia article Killer Whales the lifespan of an Orca in capativity is on average less. However there are a few problems with this claim, namely I don't think it is from a peer reviewed journal, although it does look well referenced. It is also quite old, 1995 is a long time and there has been more recent research since then which should probably be included.

Here a 2015 study from the Journal of Mammology is cited, which says that on the whole the life span between wild and captive whales is the same. However what is cited is not the Journal of Mammology but instead someone citing the Journal of Mammology. I would suggest that this claim be more thoroughly examined, perhaps by actually looking at and citing the Journal of Mammology article from the horses mouth. It is clearly inproperly cited, there is not even any details on the link as to what issue in the Journal of Mammology the research is in.

Unfortunately I do not have access to this (although I will have a little look and see if it is on JSTOR) and am no expert on Killer Whales.

What needs to be done is for wikipedians to view several journals and come to an academic consensus on the matter to ensure continuity between Killer Whale articles.

I have also posted this in the talk section of the Killer Whales page

I am not saying one side is right and one side is wrong, just that one side has an improperly cited article, and the other side has research from 1995 as opposed to more recent thinking. (Fdsdh1 (talk) 21:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC))


 * Note, March 2016: The salient reference appears to have been updated and is now in the article (#53 at this point). It may be of interest that there has been a little back-and-forth this year about that publication in the pages of Journal of Mammalogy - one critical comment by Franks et al. and one rebuttal by Robeck et al. . I'm putting the citations here (link to abstracts) if someone whishes to make use the material; I can't quite make out on which side the merit lies in that dispute :p --  Elmidae  (talk) 17:25, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Edit warring
Can you please explain why you have repeatedly reverted this edit that was made in good faith? It isn't vandalism and shouldn't be treated as such. Is "crushed to death in the jaws of Keto" really sensible language? "Killed" is far more succinct. The section on training is extremely poorly sourced considering SeaWorld's involvement in the subject and the edit you reverted seems like a reasonable attempt to improve it, or at least remove the more egregious parts. SmartSE (talk) 18:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, the editor who made the change is a Long Term Abuser (LTA), the "Best Known for IP", who was at that time under a block. Therefore the edit was block evasion, and, as a LTA, the editor was de facto banned, so their edits could be removed on sight, regardless of their value per se. Such removals are one of the few exceptions to the 3RR/edit warring rule, and are not subject to it. The editor in question is now formally banned by the community   as a result of their latest series of edits, including the one you're asking about.As always, the reverted edits of a banned editor can be restored by any editor in good standing, who then takes personal responsibility for the edits - see WP:BANREVERT. BMK (talk) 01:53, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks for the explanation. It wasn't at all clear from your edit summaries that this was the case though. I've partially reverted. SmartSE (talk) 20:48, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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Questions
1) Where does the information come from? Are these neutral sources? If biased, is that bias noted?

-Some of the information comes from biased sources. The bias is not noted in these sources. One of the sources noted is from the movie "Blackfish" which is known for the advocation of Orcas being removed from captivity

2)Are there viewpoints that are overrepresented, or underrepresented?

- The viewpoint from the point of the organizations that have Orcas captive is underrepresented. (i.e Sea World and other marine parks and aquariums)

Arb921 (talk) 23:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

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source
Possibly of use: "Techniques of Live Capture of Smaller Cetacea" by Edward D. Asper.--Carbon Caryatid (talk) 15:20, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

naming
The designation “Killer Whale” should be relaxed by “Orca” in every instance unless it mentions “killer whale” as an inappropriate name for “orca.” LenLiptack (talk) 03:32, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, “replaced” not “relaxed” LenLiptack (talk) 03:33, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Longevity section outdated information
The article's section regarding longevity reproduces the claim that wild female orcas "typically" live 60-80 years with a maximum recorded age of 103 years, refering to Granny (J2). The only source cited seems to be an article called "World’s oldest orca spotted near Vancouver Island", which contains no data to base these claims, when it is actually not proven that female wild orcas "typically" live to 60-80 years, which is close to humans, and the popular claims about Granny's age were based on a series of assumptions in the first place, and have been disproven more recently through her biopsy.

The following source addressing some of these issues seems to be completely absent from the article: Todd R. Robeck, Kevin Willis, Michael R. Scarpuzzi, Justine K. O’Brien, Survivorship pattern inaccuracies and inappropriate anthropomorphism in scholarly pursuits of killer whale ( Orcinus orca ) life history: a response to Franks et al. (2016), Journal of Mammalogy, Volume 97, Issue 3, 9 June 2016, Pages 899–905, https://doi.org/10.1093/jmammal/gyw023 5.55.112.141 (talk) 06:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Ecotypes and nutrition
To my best knowledge, captive orcas are fed fish. Are all of them of fish-eating races or just nobody cares about their natural preferences? Эйхер (talk) 18:39, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Short description
@Viewmont Viking I'd like to know what you did not approve of about the short description of "Killer whales kept in a confining area", so we can establish an appropriate description for this page. I thought I was neutral enough, using a synonym (found in the first sentence of the page) for "orcas" (which is already in the title) and copying the short-description style at Captive elephants ("Elephants kept in a confining area"). Anderjef (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * WP:GOODFAITH
 * I wanted to clarify my objection to the use of "orcas" in the short description per WP:SDDUPLICATE, "avoid duplicating information that is already in the title". "killer whales" was also applied to the description before "orcas". Why using the seemingly most common synonym for "orca" is not WP:NPOV escapes me, especially considering the term already both appears in the first sentence and 77 additional times in the body of the article. I also worry about WP:NOTCENSORED being broken, but I will not be pushing the issue. Anderjef (talk) 00:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

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