Talk:Carl Jenkinson

National identity needs an explanation
From his name and place of birth I would assume that he is of dual nationality, probably with an English father and a Finnish mother, and has chosen to play international football for Finland. But if I am right, describing him as an English-born Finn simply isn't sufficiently accurate in non-footballing terms, it should be something like, "a dual-national British and Finnish footballer who has chosen to represent Finland at football". Alex Middleton (talk) 19:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, AFAIK he is not eligible to represent England anymore as the relevant FIFA rule states that:
 * "If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new
 * nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams
 * due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for
 * which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another
 * country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions..." -91.153.152.28 (talk) 01:38, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Sending off
he did not get sent off during the liverpool match at 20 august 2011, it was emmanuel frimpong who got sent off at the 70th minute — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.1.57 (talk) 17:17, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * don't see that error. Chensiyuan (talk) 17:44, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Citations in stats table
User Miunouta has removed the cite for Eastbourne Borough game in the FA Trophy from the career stats table, which I consider to be disruptive editing as it goes against WP:V - the cite should not be removed. I have discussed this on their Talk page and my change to the 'last good stats table' was reverted, so rather than enter an edit war, I would like to get consensus on this. Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 20:05, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this up 10 minutes after I readded the source for the FA Trophy.--Miunouta (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the Charlton cite and removing European competition info? Your edits to the table are disruptive and do not "optimize" it. JMHamo (talk) 20:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the Charlton cite? Please read the ESPN reference before saying that it is problematic. And why do you think it is necessary to state that those are Champions League games when no other articles do that? I seriously do not understand why you think my edits to the table are "disruptive" when the stats are more efficiently cited and unnecessary codes such as rowspan="1" are removed. Please explain.--Miunouta (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Instead, I think your attempts to interrupt my edits are quite disruptive.--Miunouta (talk) 20:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Have a look how WP:FOOTY says the stats table should appear - Player article MoS JMHamo (talk) 20:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have already seen the templates. You have not explained why you think "the Charlton cite and removing European competition info" are wrong. And is there ANY problem with the current stats table?--Miunouta (talk) 20:50, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with JMHamo. take one look at the MOS and you can see how the stats table should look like.  The MOS is the agreed position from the members of the wiki football project if you have a problem with it have the discussion there rather than 'going your own way'. You should also not remove the references. =>  Spudgfsh  ( Text Me! ) 20:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, then I would say more than 90% of the state tables for football players are problematic. PLEASE take a look at my edit summary. Do you think having 5 references is better than having only 2 that function the same? It is required that we need to try to make the sources more concise. Do you think it is necessary to put rowspan="1" (which you just put back by reverting my edits)? Do you think it is necessary to state that those are Champions League games when no other articles do that? Please explain. Thanks.--Miunouta (talk) 21:01, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * On the topic of the style of the table; Just because something is wrong 'everywhere else' it does not mean you should make this page wrong. The style of the table is agreed in the MOS and should be corrected everywhere it is divergent for no good reason.  There is no reason to WP:IAR in this case where a consensus has been agreed as to what the table should look like and there is nothing within this case as to make it a 'special case'.  The order of the columns is important and should remain the same. I repeat myself and state if you have a problem with the way it looks, go to the talk page and propose a change to the format (and a gain WP:Consensus for it)
 * On the topic of the champions league note, there is no actual column in the MOS for europe (just one for other), having the note aids to current and future understanding of what the 'other' games are. Just because it's obvious now it doesn't mean it'll be obvious in 5 or 10 years time.
 * On the topic of the references, I'll agree that the new reference does provide all of the information but you have to go looking for it once you are there (not that it's hard to find mind). If you are rationalising the references your new reference provides all of the information for his career stats. =>  Spudgfsh  ( Text Me! ) 21:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * So should we add the Champions League note for every applicable article? And should we add a reference for every season in every player's article? Sometimes, it is unnecessary to cite too much.--Miunouta (talk) 21:31, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so I guess we do need to add citation for every season in every player's article and we do need to add a Champions League or Europa League note for every applicable article. Thanks. I will try to assist with that.--Miunouta (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Put simply.. this example of a stats table is perfect and is what all other stats tables on player articles should be like. I will admit that a lot of career stats are not like this but that's due to the number of articles and the time it would take to update them all, also unreferenced stats tables are likely to be removed altogether, so the argument that WP:OSE is not really valid. JMHamo (talk) 22:20, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am sorry. I still do not understand why putting 4 references there is better than trying to be concise by replacing them with this one reference http://espnfc.com/player/_/id/150844/carl-jenkinson?cc=5901#ui-tabs-1 . First of all, the soccerbase references do not include the number of games this player has played in each season and you have to actually count the number of games in order to figure out how many games he played in each season and each competition. For the ESPN page, you do not need to "go looking for it once you are there" like Spudgfsh said, all you have to do is just add #ui-tabs-1 to the end of the link and it links to the 'Career' section. Also, it includes the number of games he has played in each season and each competition very clearly. Can someone please explain why this does not benefit the readers as much as the 4 separate sources? Thanks.--Miunouta (talk) 23:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't forget this is not all about Arsenal. Eastbourne Borough FA Trophy stats are not included on ESPN. JMHamo (talk) 23:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I know. Please note that I replaced the 4 references with one and kept the source for Eastbourne Borough FA Trophy stats.--Miunouta (talk) 23:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

And I've been saying that from the start of this discussion. Please read my comments thoroughly. Thanks.--Miunouta (talk) 23:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Each season needs to be sourced individually, it should be easy for the reader to verify per season, without having to go look for the information. Soccerbase is used across football articles to do this, so I don't understand why you have a problem with this? JMHamo (talk) 00:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you have problems with the ESPN source. As you don't seem to read my comments carefully, now I have to quote myself. The ESPN source states "the number of games he has played in each season and each competition very clearly" but "the Soccerbase references do not include the number of games this player has played in each season and you have to actually count the number of games in order to figure out how many games he played in each season and each competition". How does that make it easier for readers to verify and how does that make it easier for editors to update the data?--Miunouta (talk) 00:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've said my part. Soccerbase is the preferred source. I will leave it for other editors to comment and reach WP:CONSENSUS JMHamo (talk) 00:34, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You cannot say that something is the preferred source simply because you think it is. Still, you failed to explain why it is easier for readers to verify the stats by counting the number of games/goals (Soccerbase) rather than having the numbers directly (ESPN).--Miunouta (talk) 00:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

per WP:FOOTY JMHamo (talk) 01:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the links in the list is not even valid. http://www.sportbox.tv/football/teams/ does not link to anything. When there are better sources, we need to be more flexible instead of ONLY sticking to the old list which apparently needs to be updated. Again, as you said, we should make it easier for readers to verify the stats. You still have not been able to explain why it is easier for readers to verify the stats by counting the number of games/goals (Soccerbase) rather than having the numbers directly (ESPN).--Miunouta (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment from Struway2 on WP:FOOTY Players that is very pertinent to this discussion. JMHamo (talk) 09:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Excuse me. That does not seem to help explain your logic. It seems that you are just trying to avoid admitting that what you are saying does not agree with itself.--Miunouta (talk) 15:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read the comments from Struway2 on WP:FOOTY Players, where it's explained very well in my opinion why we should use row-by-row referencing. I have no more to add. JMHamo (talk) 16:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Assists
How about seperating the stat tables to leave the premier league one on its own so that we can include assists? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.55.252 (talk) 01:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

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