Talk:Chashitsu

Chinese Tea Houses
The Chinese also have teahouses, though written 茶馆 rather than 茶室. Does anyone have an opinion on whether it should be included in the same article or as a different article, in which case the current article should probably be renamed "Japanese tea house" and the new article be called "Chinese tea house." From what I can tell, they are quite different animals, as 茶馆 are social places, traditionally for chatting, gambling, eating, as well as drinking tea. They are still common places for friends and couples to meet, though more common in some parts of China than others. Anyway, ideas? Easytoremember 07:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Tea House &rarr; Japanese tea house : I am proposing this move for User:Easytoremember since he was having difficulty doing so. I have asked that he add his reasons here as soon as possible. --Hetar 09:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Survey and discussion

 * Add * Support or * Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, or add * followed by a comment, then sign your opinion with "~"


 * Support The article is virtually only about Japanese tea houses.  They exist elsewhere and are different depending on the location/culture. --Easytoremember 10:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 00:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. This will allow for the creation for a separate article or articles dealing with tea houses generally or in other cultural contexts. Fishhead64 21:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 09:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Bah. Apparently, this has been done in a sort-of cut and paste manner. Please never do that again, as it destroys the concurrent edit history. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 09:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we can get an admin to fix this for us. I agree that it should have been moved rather than cut and pasted. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 17:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've marked the new page as needing a history merge. Should be taken care of soon. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 17:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge
I think the merge is done. Please let me know of any problems. Turnstep 19:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! (^_^) --日本穣 Nihonjoe 20:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

alternative name
Isn't a Japanese tea house also known as an ochaya? I would put it in the article but I don't know the specifics. ssepp(talk) 18:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Self-reply: It seems there is a complication in that a tea house can not only refer to a place where a tea ceremony is held (chashitsu) but also to a place of exclusive entertainment (ochaya). I am making some adjustments. ssepp(talk) 09:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sources say that the terms are entirely unrelated. As you said, the ochaya is a commercial establishment. This is an exclusive place where you can find the geisha (ochaya has been described as their "natural habitat"). In fact, the maiko and geiko traditions were said to have originated from a pair of ochaya located at the Yasaka Shrine. Darwin Naz (talk) 23:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

WP:FOOD Tagging
This article talk page was automatically added with WikiProject Food and drink banner as it falls under Category:Restaurants or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. You can find the related request for tagging here -- TinucherianBot (talk) 08:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Image by Hiroshige.
I removed the image. It's an image of a cafe on the road side. Read this explanation. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 17:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

house and room
Obviously, from the confusion in this article, the idea of trying to draw a line between tea house and tea room has great limits and does not really work. At this stage, it seems wise to rework the whole article and not try to draw a distinct line. No matter what, the interior of the house is the room.Tksb (talk) 16:29, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean. Chashitsu can refer both to a tea room, which is to say a space designed for tea, or a tea house, either a larger space that contains one or more tea rooms or a free-standing tea room.  Possibly we can clarify this in the article, but it doesn't seem particularly confusing.  Exploding Boy (talk) 17:51, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

The confusion lies in when we enter the tea house (free-standing chashitsu or complex of chashitsu) and, naturally, are then in the/a tea room (chashitsu). In the earlier history of this whole article, it was fundamentally given that a tea room was a sort of typical washitsu (with typical shoji and such) used for chanoyu, located in some kind of building not devoted to chanoyu, while a tea house was an independent structure/building devoted to chanoyu. In the early history of chanoyu itself, before the advent of the independent "tea house," shoin reception rooms and such zashiki were employed for chanoyu, just as almost any washitsu today might be. In that scenerio, a tea room would rarely be 4 1/2 tatami or smaller, have a nijiriguchi, windows providing just dim lighting, and so forth. Presently, the section about layout (and amenities) of the tea house is sketchy and, as would have to be, overlaps some of the information for the layout of a tea room (because once inside the room for tea in the tea house, the interior has to be called a tea room), and when we get to the divide about the tea room and its layout, we learn about the interior of this space (house/room), giving the "typical" [ideal] example of a 4 1/2 tatami room -- the style of tea room that was the basis for the tea house. The historical development of the independent room (and the history of the wabi-soan, focusing on the 4 1/2 tatami tea room or smaller) is key to this divide. More crucial, I think, are the practical elements that make a washitsu a good room for use as a chashitsu. Mention about "tea houses" that are tearoom complexes, like those of large tea schools such as Urasenke, tend to confuse the issue, and I believe that there requires much more explanation to alleviate the confusion about this. In short, I think the main problem with the article as it stands now is that tea house and tea room are presented as seemingly separate categories.Tksb (talk) 03:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * ...Which they sort of are, sometimes. I see your point, though.  Let's see what we can do.  Exploding Boy (talk) 05:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've gone through and done some editing following your edits. Hopefully things are a little clearer now. I've removed the following as it's confusing and seems to contradict the other information in the "history" section:

"According to Japanese historian Moriya Takeshi in his article 'The Mountain Dwelling Within the City,' the ideal of wabi-style chanoyu (wabi-cha) had its roots in the urban society of the Muromachi period (1336 to 1573), and took form in the tea houses that townspeople who were fond of chanoyu built at their residences and which affected the appearance of thatched huts in mountain villages. Before this, chanoyu was generally enjoyed in rooms built in the shoin-zukuri architectural style, a style frequently employed in tea rooms built today. "

The History section could use a bit more work, and so could the "layouts" section: possibly we could add some information about hongatte and gyakugatte layouts. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that, rather than deleting information from reliable scholarly references because it contradicts information that has not been backed up, it is the latter which needs to be questioned and, unless it can be properly backed up with reliable citations, should perhaps be removed.Tksb (talk) 07:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yep, reliably sourced information is better. The paragraph above doesn't say much about the history of chashitsu though, it's more about wabi-cha.  It might be better in that article.


 * By the way, I noticed you removed chaseki as another word for chashitsu: I don't object to that necessarily, but just so you know, it was taken from the Chanoyu Vocabulary. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits
The current lead reads as follows:

"In Japanese tradition, architectural spaces where chanoyu (tea ceremony) gatherings are held are known as chashitsu (茶室, 'tea rooms')."

Correct, and easy to understand (although chashitsu needs to be in bold, and we need to decide whether we're going to italicize Japanese terms and do so consistently throughout the article).

But the next sentence:

"The term chashitsu, in modern times, is also applied to washitsu (Japanese style rooms) having sunken hearth (ro) and used for chanoyu lessons and/or everyday enjoyment of chanoyu."

This is just confusing. First, all chashitsu are also washitsu (unless they're unusually modern and purposely non-traditional). Second, if a room is used for tea lessons and "everyday enjoyment of chanoyu" (whatever that means), then it is a tea room, thus a chashitsu. A plain washitsu may be conceptually transformed into a chashitsu if it is not usually used for tea ceremony but the need arises, but if it has a ro then it's clearly intended for tea. How many teachers do you know who have a room for keiko and another room for formal chaji/chakai? I don't get what distinction you're trying to make, but it really confuses the lead.

In the next section (Tea rooms vs tea houses) we have the following confusing statements:

"There is in Japanese the related term, chaya (茶屋), literally meaning 'tea house.' However, this Japanese term generally refers to a building which is meant for tea enjoyment and other such relaxing recreation, rather than specifically and exclusively for chanoyu.[5] Another related Japanese term is chaseki (茶席), broadly meaning 'place for tea,' and implying any sort of space where people are seated to participate in chanoyu."

Adding the term "chaya" is simply confusing: a chaya is not a tea house in the sense of chanoyu. If we're going to use the term "chaseki" in the article, then it should be placed in the lead where it was originally.

Finally, the History of chashitsu section is back to being confusing again, with various bits of information stuck together. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I seem to be having a conversation with myself here, I'm not sure why, but at any rate since I'm going to edit the lead I'm going to explain why.


 * Since I left my comments above, the lead has been changed to read as follows:


 * In Japanese tradition, architectural spaces designed to be used for the kind of chanoyu (tea ceremony) gatherings referred to as chaji (tea function) are known as chashitsu (茶室, "tea rooms").[1] The term chashitsu, in modern times, is also applied to washitsu (Japanese style rooms) having sunken hearth (ro) and used for chanoyu lessons and/or everyday enjoyment of chanoyu.[2]


 * First of all, a chashitsu is not only used for chaji. It may be used for chakai; for simple enjoyment of tea in the form of a single temae rather than an extended chaji/chakai; or for lessons.  "Tea function" is not a very good translation of chaji either.  Second, adding "washitsu" in this manner is exceedingly confusing and isn't accurate either, as explained above: all chashitsu are also washitsu, and there is no reason for a Japanese-style room to have a sunken ro unless it is to be used as a tea room at least some of the time.


 * I've made several changes, including reducing the number of uses of the word "chanoyu." There are many Japanese terms in this article, and it should be more accessible to a non-Japanese speaking reader.  Besides this, sadō/chadō are by far the more commonly used terms. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Bravo! I think the article is on right footing now.Tksb (talk) 13:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

One and a half mats
The issue of room size, particularly the minimum possible room size, is essential to understanding about the wabi-cha developed by Rikyu. It is confounding to be told that the minimum size possible is 1.5 mats, because such a size defies practicality. Old records and diagrams from Rikyu's era do indicate "one and a half jo, but evidence shows that until the era of Furuta Oribe, anything less than a full mat was given as a "half mat" (hanjō). The evidence appears in a 16-vol. anonymous work called the Chafu 茶譜, regarded by historians as an important source of information about tea history. This work explains why it was decided to call the "half mat" that was larger than a half of a mat but smaller than a full mat a "daime"; the reason was because carpenters were confused. Nakamura Shosei, arguably the number-one authority on chashita today, offered this information in a hand-out at a recent lecture. He also confirmed, verbally, that for a chashitsu to be 1.5 tatami, it would have to be the guest's mat that were the half mat (since temae on just a half mat is impossible), which of course would not have been possible (host taking the full mat, and a half mat left for just one guest).

In that readers of wikipedia articles may tend to take the statements at face value and some might in fact try to construct a minimal-size chashitsu according to this statement, it seems wise to state that the minimum size is the ichijō-daime (one full mat for guests, and the 3/4 size daime mat for the host to arrange the equipment and sit and conduct the tea-making).Tksb (talk) 03:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


 * While what you say about terminology may be true, I would dispute the claim that it is impossible for a chashitsu to be 1.5 tatami, since as Nakamura points out, a guest can be comfortably accommodated on a half mat leaving the remaining whole mat for the host to prepare the tea. Exploding Boy (talk) 04:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (To the extent that seiza can ever be considered comfortable, that is. Exploding Boy (talk) 06:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC))

Wikimedia links
The Wikimedia 'destination' has changed - can the link be redirected? Jackiespeel (talk) 09:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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