Talk:Christian hip hop

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List
needs list of prominent artists. ReverendG 00:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

yes please merge "christian hip hop" and "holy hip hop" - but PLEASE do NOT list under "Holy Hip Hop" that sounds so dorky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djp72 (talk • contribs)

Now...just because something sounds dorky does not mean people do not use it. But I would have to agree that Holy Hip Hop sometimes is used to described religious related hip hop like Islam. Under the old mp3.com website they had the section for Christian hip hop under spiritual hip hop.

Unexplained deletions
Please give some explanation as to why history should be deleted. Paul foord 14:37, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Please Explain
likewise the secular hip hop community has also at times persecuted Christian hip hop artists and followers.

This sentence reeks of NPOV, either we should scrap that sentence or add sources.


 * Yes, it does "reek of NPOV," because it was written from a neutral point of view. I'm sure you meant that it is the writer's point of view, but that's beside the point. Unfortunately, it is true that many Christian emcees (most infamously D-Boy) have been persecuted by secular hip hop artists and crews. That's probably where the term "sucker emcee" came from. undefined

Not true. The term "sucker emcee" goes back farther than Danny boy.

Agreed. "Sucker MCs" dates at least back to the Sugarhill Records era...I believe there was a relatively popular rap song with that name. Long before D-Boy. GBrady (talk) 17:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, "Run DMC" released a song called Sucker M.C.'s back in 1983, on Profile Records DerekDrewASU (talk) 23:44, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

D-Boy's death
Is there a reliable cite for D-Boy being killed due to evangalizing the gangs? All reliable sources I can find say it was a case of mistaken identity or the motive for his killing was unknown. Ashmoo 02:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Most recent source I could find quoted his mother as saying there was no definitive motive given/culprit found. I've changed that in the article.GBrady (talk) 17:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Intro too long
Some of the intro needs to be moved to the article. At present it is very unbalanced hjaving an intro as long as the article. Whats with all the links to clothiong brands etc. It looks a lot like spam to me? David D. (Talk) 06:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * i notice an anon IP reverted back to the bad old version that had an overlong intro and tons of spam links. i have reverted it bac to the last good version by LeinadSpoon. This is not acceptable format on wikipedia. Articles should not become link farms. David D. (Talk) 06:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Corrected Info. about D-Boy's Murder
Per the Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-cookie_08met.ART.State.Edition2.e26d8ac.html), Danny Rodriguez "D-Boy" was murdered in 1990 when he was leaving his apartment complex. Police have never apprehended a suspect and the motive for the killing is not known.

I have fixed that portion of the D-Boy article. I'm having some trouble getting the footnotes in there so if someone can explain to me how to do that, I'll try and properly source it. Also, the article provided me some great additional details to add to the article...renaming Street Church after D-Boy, the 2006 tribute concert etc. Does anyone know more about what that tribute CD was called, who was on it, who participated at the concert, etc.? GBrady (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The D-Boy tribute album was titled Fallen Soldier. To mark a footnote, include the footnote directly in the paragraph you intend to footnote (where you want the number to display), and surround it with tags. Jpers36 (talk) 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Other rappers
One of the most ironic quirks of rap artists, given their usual lyrics - look through the liner notes to most US RAP/Hip Hop. You will find the artist/band thanking god. I think Geto Boys are the best example of this 164.143.244.34 17:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Should the Geto Boys be featured in the article? 96.37.22.115 (talk) 20:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you have any indication that they are a Christian act? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Opinion or Fact?
...two groups emerged in this new scene that not only had the "gospel" / "Christian" part, but also had the credible skills and "street wise" artistry to make an impact in the secular or mainstream scene as well...

This section in particular seems to just be blind assertion. Whether someone is 'street-wise' or not is a matter of opinion. A better way of framing this would be if you found someone of prominence in the hip hop community who expressed this point of view.

Before The Cross Movement, many of the artists in the genre were passive, speaking of Christ only when necessary.

Can this be supported with a citation? This seems to be a VERY POV statement as well as very dismissive of the intent of old-school Christian rappers from the late 80s/early 1990s as well. I'd like to see this drastically reworded unless it can be cited.GBrady (talk) 17:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

First Hip Hop Worship Album?
How is Rawsrvnt's album, "In Rare Form" listed as the first Hip Hop Worship Album? Wasn't Hip Hop Praise's album "Sinner's Prayer" way before that? This article seems to have a lot of fake statements like this one, and I'm concerned the credibility simply isn't here. 141.151.175.91 20:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

How do I post to this discussion page as there is no such option? The only option I have is to edit other people's posts!
 * You may start a new discussion by clicking the edit this page link at the top and adding a new level 2 sectional heading at the bottom. Alternatively, you may click the (+) sign next to the edit link to start a new discussion. :) a JC freak   y A k  06:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The "Holy Hip Hop Database" agrees with User above that "Hip Hop Praise" from MG the Visionary was the first hip hop worship album. 2000 is given as release date: "He also produced and recorded the project "Sinner's Prayer" released in 2000, which is the first praise hip hop album." In Rare Form wasn't released until 2006.GBrady (talk) 15:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

"Rev. Rap" really first?
I've seen the name "Plain White Rapper" mentioned as an early cassette only Christian rap release but I haven't been able to find a definitive source yet. Anyone familiar with that tape know its year of release? GBrady (talk) 17:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Plain White Rapper" is a song by KJ-52 --134.193.112.62 (talk) 16:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I had the tape by the "Plain White Rap-per" It did exist as one of the first "Rap" tapes I remember. Here is what I know about it;

Title: Plain White Rap-per [sound recording].

Main Author: Price, Terry Lee.

Registration Number / Date: SR0000104779 / 1989-03-22

Date of Publication: October 30, 1987

Description: sound cassette : analog.

Publisher: Brentwood, TN : Brentwood Music, p1987

OCLC Number: 42543208

Contents: (Side A) The bridge -- The prodigal -- (Side B) The bridge (accompaniment track) -- The prodigal (accompaniment track).

Web links and Refernces
First just for those who are new or not familiar with Wiki. Places in the article that cite and external website are called "Refences" and are automatically added n the page when you use on a page. So DO NOT delete this tag. If you want to have genereal references to for article where no direct citation is used, you may put it after the tag, however this is discouraged. If you just want to post a link, you can use the section I just created called Web Links.

I think we should keep the Web Links section as it is a valuable recource, however a general wiki concensus among many users is not to use them. Many people use WP to promote thier own or favorite sites or artists, but I still think this is OK as long as it's not abused. See the comment I put in the section regarding guidelines for adding sites. If you feel the section should be deleted, please discuss here before deleting. Thanks! --Lefton4ya (talk) 21:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Christian Artists
I don't think that people like Tupac, Dmx, Jay-Z and Kanye should be mentioned in this article, let alone given a whole paragraph. Just because an artist mentions God, Christ, or anything remotely spiritual in one song then turns around talking about selling drugs, killing and hurting people, etc. in fourteen or fifteen other songs is NOT CHRISTIAN music. The only three people I myself have heard of in this article are Lecrae, Trip Lee and Tedashii. There are other artists worth mentioning in this article too. People from Cross Movement Records like The Cross Movement, Flame, The Ambassador Sho Baraka, Json...Then S.O.A.K. (Sons of a King) with Lunie 3:80, Semaj, and Judah Man. Conviction, Pettidee...--Lilac22281 (talk) 16:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with your first sentence. List of Christian hip hop and rap artists also needs work. You can go ahead and clean up the article if you want to. Be bold!. -- &oelig; &trade; 19:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In your efforts to define what is and is not "true" Christian Hip-Hop - please be careful not to fall victim to the No true Scotsman logical fallacy. Just because an artist's lyrics offend you personally, does not automatically mean it is not Christian Hip-Hop.  There are many sub-denominations of Christianity, and the morals and personal beliefs of Christians varies wildly enough that the definition of Christian Hip-Hop may be larger and more inclusive than you would otherwise like to assert.  There are undeniably many people for whom drugs, killing, hurting people, AND their personal devotion to Christianity, are all central aspects of their lives. Roidroid (talk) 06:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

This article ignores divisions within the genre.
There's a pretty big issue being skipped over in how this article covers the genre. The great divide among Christian rappers is between people who rap about Christian beliefs, and people who hold Christian beliefs but rap about other things, perhaps occasionally touching on their Christianity as part of who they are. I myself tend to follow the second type of Christian rap artist, and enjoy Mars Ill and LA Symphony. --Nerd42 (talk) 15:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * This has been covered in the Christian rock and Contemporary Christian music articles. If you want to bring it up again here, go ahead. I tend to follow the first type of Christian music in general. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes I'm aware this distinction is present in many genres of "Christian music" (note the bolded scare quotes - the term is meaningless) but from reading this article, you get the impression that "gospel rap" and "Christian hip hop" are the same thing. They aren't. I think "gospel rap" is rapping about the gospel, while "Christian hip hop" is hip hop by Christians. Unfortunately, the terms are used interchangeably by the media because they're too stupid to figure out the difference. --Nerd42 (talk) 19:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The term is not meaningless to all people, which is why it exists in the first place. You might want to use the text from the articles I mentioned above as a foundation for what you use here, but since you think that the term is meaningless, maybe you shouldn't be the one who is editing the article. Perhaps someone who cares about the distinction should be the editor. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

No, what I meant by the term being meaningless is that I reject the concept that a song can be Christian or unChristian. Only a person can be a Christian, a beat is just a beat. The article Holy Hip Hop's Civil War should be helpful.

The way this article deals with the subject, Insane Clown Posse could be considered a Christian hip hop group because their Dark Carnival mythology is, according to their own statements, basically a disguise for a moral, supernatural, theistic vision of heaven and hell that basically corresponds to the Christian one conceptually. They consider themselves to be against Satan and for God and to be warning people about the wrath to come, encouraging them to not sin and go to heaven instead of hell. But absolutely no one in the Christian hip hop genre would describe them as Christian hip hop unless I'm very much mistaken. At the same time, the way this article is now, deepspace5 wouldn't be a Christian hip hop group, given what they do, when they are definitely well within the genre. --Nerd42 (talk) 21:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The genre, like much of Christian music sub-genres, isn't particularly precise. There are some who consider themselves to be Christian artists while others balk at the idea of wearing the moniker either because it feel limiting or because they don't feel worthy compared to others. For instance, Switchfoot don't consider themselves to be a Christian rock band, but many of their fans do. Who is right in that regard? Meanwhile, there are Christian metal bands who regularly play in bars and clubs and don't have a problem with calling themselves Christian. Some constantly refer to Christ or Christian themes while others don't. Do you have a suggestion to solve the problem universally or are you suggesting that everyone fit into some preconceived notion that you may have? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What I'm objecting to is the definition as "a form of hip hop music that uses Christian themes to express the songwriter's faith." That's assuming a set of goals that is not universal to the genre. KJ-52 for example, does songs about his faith, but also does songs about Starbucks Coffee, going to McDonalds and being addicted to Mountain Dew. Some of the other artists I mentioned that are acknowledged in the genre don't conform to that "the point of your music is for expressing your faith" formula at all. I'm saying this article's definition seems to have a preconceived notion that not all and probably not even most prominent figures in the genre conform to. I would suggest perhaps that "Christian hip hop" is hip hop created by self-identified, vocal Christians that does not use profanity and just leave it at that. --Nerd42 (talk) 22:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Multiple Issues
As requested by Walter Görlitz, here is my justification for the Multiple Issues template: Rwalker (talk) 15:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Citations Needed - Most of the History section is uncited. 11 uses of but there are plenty more instances of uncited statements in the whole article.
 * Weasel Words - Use of weasel words ("popular, funky", "considered the grandfather", "much of the sales", "Recently", "Some of America's premiere Christian rappers")
 * Cleanup - Use of slang ("bringing up", "crew"); parts written like a review, not neutral in tone ("Freedom of Soul had a jazzier feel", a more hardcore "street" feel to it")
 * Thanks. I was aware of the high number of Citation needed templates and wanted to be specific. The "considered the grandfather" isn't so much a weasel word, or phrase, as it needs a citation. The slang should be clean-up as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I don't think it is as much weasel words, as the article is very poorly sourced. Mostly, because I think people just pop in and add their own opinion of the genre or some debate currently going on in the genre, which explains the extremely poor language of parts. Ashmoo (talk) 12:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope to invest some time to help and address most of these concerns: language, citations, and enhancing the overall organizational structure. For instance, The "Performance" subsection under "Reactions and Acceptance" is markedly about special events, not concerts or shows in general. Thus, that content would probably be most appropriate under a major heading called "Events" or something similar. In such case, there's some key information that I'd like to add, with sources of course (on Cru-vention, particularly Atlanta 1996). Estaples2 (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

lede
I made a few changes to the lede and had them reverted, so I wrote them (hopefully) a bit more clearly with an explanation here. The opening description was a bit awkward with the 'expressing the artist's faith'. First, the simplest description is that the music has lyrics with Christian themes. Adding the 'faith' bit adds unneeded complication. Also, it is our course possible to be an atheist/agnostic or unsure of one's faith and write Christian hip hop. Not that I'm saying anyone is doing it, but since we can't know the minds of others, the most correct definition is based on the features of the genre which can be Verified. Finally, wikipedia focuses on Topics not Words, some I changed the focus from the 'term' to the 'subject' of Christian hip hop. Ashmoo (talk) 12:50, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Christian Hip Hop influence edit
I deleted most of a paragraph about the influence of Christian Hip because it was incorrect. Mainstream rappers Jay-Z, Tupac, Kanye West, and Richie Rich have never publicly claimed to be Christians. Their music and Tupac's Makaveli CD cover are not Christian. Jay-Z has publicly mocked and ridiculed and mocked "Christians"/followers of the Messiah as well as The Holy Bible.

Here are some of the lyrics to Jay-Z's song "Empire State of Mind" http://www.metrolyrics.com/empire-state-of-mind-lyrics-jayz.html

...Eight million stories out there, and they're naked Cities is a pity, half of y'all won't make it Me, I gotta plug, Special Ed "I Got It Made" If Jesus payin' LeBron, I'm paying Dwyane Wade...

Mommy took a bus trip, now she got her bust out Everybody ride her just like a bus route Hail Mary to the city, you're a virgin And Jesus can't save you, life starts when the church ends...

Just because someone mentions Jesus or "god" in their song doesn't mean that it is inspired by Christ any more than someone who mentions medicine while talking makes them a doctor.

I invite you to further dialog before reverting the wikipedia page back to its previous state.

-deshonj — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deshonj (talk • contribs) 14:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Please understand that this isn't about you or me but about the reference: http://allhiphop.com/stories/features/archive/2008/04/29/19752948.aspx Please read it and offer an opposing view to it, but don't delete it as per WP:V. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:15, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Creation of article for Derek Minor, formerly known as Pro
If anyone wants to help create an article for Derek Minor, formerly known as PRo, I've created the user subpages User:3family6/Derek Minor and User:3family6/Derek Minor discography.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 19:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps starting them as a single article would be better. If the discography section is too large, then it should be split off. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what I've done in the past, but as I was gathering source material, I realized that the discography page would have to be split off (Derek has three solo albums, three mixtapes, and one album each under 116 Clique and RMG, and that isn't counting singles, videos, and guest appearances), so I decided to skip that step and just create a separate page to begin with. Do you think I should merge them temporarily, just for ease of editing?-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 21:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Upcoming Revision for School Assignment
Bibliography for upcoming edits... Zachman1095 (talk) 21:40, 20 April 2015 (UTC)Zachman1095
 * http://ethnomusicologyreview.ucla.edu/journal/volume/12/piece/507
 * http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-music/can-rap-be-christian-evaluating-hip-hop/
 * http://www.academia.edu/4799499/Religion_and_Hip_Hop_by_Monica_R._Miller_Routledge_New_York_2011_x_208pp._ISBN_978_0_415_62857_0_US_125.00_hardback_
 * http://mis.sagepub.com/content/41/1/97.refs
 * http://savethekidsgroup.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Refocusing-and-Redefining.pdf
 * http://www.arts.cornell.edu/knight_institute/publicationsprizes/discoveries/discoveriesspring2006/02marchant.pdf

Outline of Upcoming Revisions - > Reaction and Acceptance >Crossover – revision - fill this in with information on how Christian Hop-Hop has influenced mainstream Hip/Hop such as relgious themes emerging in mainstream (example: Kanye West Jesus Walks) Zachman1095 (talk) 21:49, 20 April 2015 (UTC)Zachman1095


 * Those are very good sources, I look forward to seeing what you will do to help improve this article.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 01:33, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Original Comprehensive Outline posted 5/2/15... (removed)


 * Concerned about the use of the term "Gospel Rappers". Compton Virtue is unknown to me so not particularly prominent. Similarly, Google knowns nothing of this individual. You might want to pull something different out of that work, or get a quote from any of the artists who are listed at list of Christian hip hop and rap artists.
 * Please check your spelling.
 * overarching
 * received
 * content
 * religious
 * irreligious
 * "in the"
 * Also, use straight quotes, not “”
 * I'm not sure where you intend to insert this.
 * So far what you have appears to focus on mainstream musicians with faith-based, not necessarily Christian, symbolism or imagery. No discussion of Christian musicians. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:31, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Revised Comprehensive Outline of Upcoming Revisions (5/5/15) -

Various mainstream rap artists, including Kanye West, Nas, Common, Talib Kweli, and many others, have incorporated mainstream Christian symbols and messages into there music through images, lyrical content, and over-arching themes. Kanye West's hit song Jesus Walks has received a notable amount of attention for its Christian content. http://ethnomusicologyreview.ucla.edu/journal/volume/12/piece/507

The hit song "One Mic" by Nas featured an obvious illusion to Christianity in the Chorus "Yo all I need is... One God to show me how to do things his Son did..." https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tme35kt6nsco343ofynekkk5cwa?lyrics=1&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics&u=0# http://genius.com/Nas-one-mic-lyrics

Prominent Christian Rapper Lecrae, who's 2014 album "Anomaly" reached number 1 on the Billboard 100 and received numerous other accolades, expresses an explicitly Christian message in the majority of his music. However, while generally categorized as a Gospel or Christian rapper, he distances himself from the genre of Gospel Rap saying, "Christian is my faith not my genre." Other mainstream artists, such as Kanye West, while using religious themes and symbols, hold that that neither they or their music is "religious", out of a desire to distance themselves from negative stigma associated with mainstream religion. http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/lecrae-christian-rappers-christian-rap-and-the-no-1-album-in-the-country/

The use of religious themes in music that is otherwise regarded as illicit has sparked controversy over the validity of the religious messages expressed through the music. Some Christian listeners hold that "rap music, because of what it inherently communicates, is incompatible with the Christian Gospel", and attack the use of Christian themes and symbols in mainstream music as being disingenuous. http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-music/can-rap-be-christian-evaluating-hip-hop/

On the other hand, "since the mid-1990s Michael Eric Dyson and others have pointed to some cultural sensibilities shared by Christian churches and hip hop music; namely male privilege, middle-class biases, sexism, and homophobia." http://religiondispatches.org/kanye-wests-critique-of-prosperity-preaching/

Some analysits believe that the suffering expressed through rap music manifests itself in a certain spirituality that can be compatible with mainstream religious messages, although it approaches religous ideas in a much less direct way than most forms of religous expression. "Just as the MC slides into notes and dances around beats, “spirit” is not attacked straight on; it is courageously approached from below, from the margins, from youth, from uncertainty, through the structures of capitalism and mainstream media." Peter J. Paris inThe Spirituality of African Peoples

Some think that the use of mainstream religous symbols in predominately African-American music has increased the extent to which that music has disseminated through predominately white American culture. http://www.arts.cornell.edu/knight_institute/publicationsprizes/discoveries/discoveriesspring2006/02marchant.pdf Zachman1095 (talk) 20:03, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Review of Recent Revisions
I extended the introduction to better summarize the contents of the whole page. I edited the style and language, as well as reorganized the "History" and "Artists and Styles" sections, as well as relocated information to different sections that was inappropriately placed. I added information already present in different parts of the article to the Industry and Markets sections, I changed "Performances" to "Festivals" and added information on certain Festivals that was present in other parts of the article, and reorganized the Crossover section into two sections, "Crossover" and "Acceptance", and added new information from my own research. I also added "Gospel Rap in Brazil" to forms and subgenres with info from other parts of the article. Zachman1095 (talk) 23:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

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