Talk:Coligny calendar

Dispute: Start of year: Samhain/Samon
The assumption that the Irish Samhain and Gaulish Samon refer to the same period may be based on inaccurate information. There is extensive and detailed information to support this assertion at the following locations:

Samhain is not the 'Celtic new year'

Responses to 'The Celtic New Year'

I'll give this a couple of weeks, do some additional research, and then come back to consider an edit.

Lumin 00:26, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Meanwhile I edited to state that there is disagreement, and why. --Nantonos 12:10, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Just to clarify, November in Ireland was called Mi Gam (month of winter) and Cormac's Glossary (circa 900) also defines the word Gamain as 'encloses the month of Gamh (November)', so suggesting that Giamonios was the month of winter. While the Book of Leinster refers to the month of Cet Samain (cétamuin, i.e. May). So if Samonios is the month of May (Cet Samain) and Giamonios is the month of November (Mi Gam/Gamain), then the Coligny calendar starts at Beltaine; as does the year in old Irish law tracts on marraige. The same old Irish law tracts also define year in two halves for grazing fines: Samfucht (the summer months) and Gamfucht (the winter months); were again one would expert the period of Samfucht to start at Beltaine. 38.109.155.100 (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Just want to point out that by the early middle ages (after Christianity was firmly established in Ireland), the Irish had already adopted the Julian calendar and whatever native calendar traditions remained were adapted to the new system. While I agree that Samonios was a month that fell in the summer and Giamonios in the winter, and that they are linguistically related to Irish Samain and Gamain, we can't be certain that the ancient Irish calendar matched the Coligny calendar in every detail (for comparison, look at the array of divergent local calendars that existed in the ancient Greek-speaking world). Another important detail is that the Coligny calendar and Julian calendar years do not have the same number of days, so that if one is mapping out the start of the year in the Coligny calendar against a Julian ir Gregorian calendar over the course of five ears, you will immediately notice that the Coligny new year shifts from year to year and, over the course of decades and without correction (such as adding another intercalary month) can significantly drift away from its starting point. Cagwinn (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I would agree the Julian calendar is not the Coligny calendar, however the use of Irish of (Cet) Samain and Gamain at the beginning of the two seasons would by analogy suggest that the same was true for the Coligny calendar. Muireagain (talk) 23:47, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the best we can say is that in Year 1 of the Coligny calendar 5 year cycle, New Years (the 1st of Samonios) likely fell sometime between May-July; but we can't say more than that at this time. I would favor a start some time in June, because (as I mentioned above), New Years moves in position throughout the 5 year cycle, drifting several weeks earlier by year three, before being returned close to (but not exactly on) its Year 1 starting point for the beginning of the next 5 year cycle. If, as Pliny claimed, the Gauls used a 30 year "grand cycle", New Years in Year 1 of each cycle drifts later over the course of 30 years, falling several weeks after its starting point in the final 5 year sub-cycle. Depending on when you start Samonios 1 in relation to our calendar (let's say early June for this example), and how many days you assign to Equos in years 2 and 4 (these days are unfortunately missing on the calendar), over the course of 30 years, New Years could fall in a particular year anywhere from mid May to early July. Such a variation in the date of New Years could help to explain the 3-year cluster of month names in Insular Celtic, May = "Beginning of Summer" (Old Irish Cetamain, Welsh Cyntefin, etc), June = "Middle-Summer" (OIr. Mithem, W. Mehefin), and July = "End of Summer" (Manx Jerrey Souree, W. Gorffenhaf; a similar grouping of three winter months existed as well, though only vestiges of it remain in Manx Jerrey Gheuree "end of Winter [= January], Welsh/Cornish cynhaeaf/kyniaf "harvest/autumn", originally "beginning of winter", and Old Irish Gamain [November]. Manx also has similar groups of three for Fall and Spring).Cagwinn (talk) 02:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Celtic Art
I don't know about "celtic art". It's an unadorned table. "Art of timekeeping", if you like, but Celtic art seems more about the 'fine arts'. dab (&#5839;) 18:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It might be a stretch. Theres not too much fine Celtic art before the middle ages I think. Im not sure if celtic calendars are included in the study of celtic art prior to the middle ages or not. Stbalbach 18:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * ah, there are a lot of artefacts, little animal figurines, reliefs, jewellery, the Gundestrup cauldron, that sort of thing. Also consider the stuff found in Chariot burials, and Gaulish and British coins . dab (&#5839;) 18:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah see I dont know much about it pre-Middle Ages. The question is, do art historians include Celtic calenders as part of their study. I dont know, seemed reasonable. Stbalbach 19:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dispute: Start of month: Full Moon or New Moon? (Neither?)
The article currently states:
 * the months were lunar, starting at the full moon (see lunar calendar).

and yet in Caesars Gallic Wars:
 * [6.18] All the Gauls assert that they are descended from the god Dis, and say that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids. For that reason they compute the divisions of every season, not by the number of days, but of nights; they keep birthdays and the beginnings of months and years in such an order that the day follows the night.

The interpretation of atenoux as "returning night" is improbable (Delamarre p.58) and "renewing" would seem more probable; thus the month would start at new moon and atenoux would indicate the renewal, ie the full moon. --Nantonos 23:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile I edited to talk about the first half and the second half, and added the lengths of them (whichwas missing). Noted that scholars disagree on whether the start was the new or full moon, although the Caesar quote seems fairly compelling in fact. --Nantonos 12:10, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Pliny (re: the Gauls,) and Tacitus (re: the Germans*) both tell us that, for their primary religious or civic cycles, the European tribes both favored the moon phase that is "after new but not having reached full": in other words the First Quarter (the sixth night the moon could possibly be seen). The various statements by modern writers suggesting that all lunar calendars ("must") have been calibrated from Full(or New Moon) do not often cite the reasons why they say so and we are left to assume that they assume-so because that is how things were done in the Hebrew and the Islamic calendars. Central Europe was and still is is a long way from the Middle East. Anyone who looks up at the actual moon might find that the dead-straight terminator on the "D"-shaped First-Quarter is far easier to judge to the day/by-eye precisely than the several days on either side of Full where, visually its absolute "fullness" is dramatically ambiguous. This is why I feel that if the ancient Europeans actually did use the First Quarter to calibrate their calendar it would not be difficult at all to build a compelling case for the "why" behind it.

Take the quote from Pliny in the article and compare this from Tacitus' Germania: "except in the case of accident or emergency, they assemble on certain particular days, either shortly after the new moon or shortly before the full moon. These they hold are the most auspicious times for embarking on any enterprise."

--Earrach April 2nd, 2007

Number of Days in 30-year cycle
The article asserts that the mean month in the 30-year cycle is 29.534 days. This is consistent with a 30-year cycle of 10957 days and a mean year of about 365.237 days. I see no justification of this assertion in the article or in the linking web pages.

A 30-year cycle of 10956 days would provide a more accurate mean month of 29.531 days, but a less accurate mean year (365.2 days). The mean year could then be corrected by ADDING an extra month about once every 600 years. The 30-year cycle of 10956 days can be implemented by simply adding a leap day to each 5-year cycle, where years otherwise have 354 days and excluding leap months, which have 30 days.

I don't know how many days did actually occur in a 30-year cycle or whether this is known at all. Any assertion to the effect needs backing up.

--Karl Palmen 31 August 2005 10:40 UT


 * Adding a leap day has an obvious problem in that it shifts the month cycle relative to the lunar cycle. You suggest adding a leap day every five years; after only 35 years the lunar cycle would be out of phase by a quarter cycle, which would be glaringly obvious, no?


 * As for corrections over a 600 year period, who knows whether the calendar was in use over such an extended period? --Nantonos 16:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Here are the mean years and mean lunar months for different numbers of days in the 30-year cycle (of 371 lunar months)

Number of Days  Mean Year   Mean Month 10955          365.1667    29.529302  10956           365.2       29.530997  10957           365.2333    29.533693

The web pages referenced by the article do not agree on the number of days in the Coligny calendar's 30-year cycle. Any assertion concerning the number of days actually occurring in the 30-year cycle needs backing up with a credible reference.

Karl Palmen 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Small sigils
I suspect that this comes from the neopagan The Celtic Tradition by Caitlin Matthews, which is the only source cited by which, in turn, is I suspect the source of some of this article. I would like to see some better documentation for these "sigils" which are not mentioned in the academic books on the subject. --Nantonos 16:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Monard
The article currently gives the impression that Monard was the originator of much of the information presented. Since his works date to 1996-1999 and the scholarship on the Calendar dates to 1899, this is unlikely. --Nantonos 16:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Unattributed information in List of Months
I'm just doing some amateur research on ancient Celtic calendars, and I was wondering what the "Celtic Moon" column means in the "List of Months". There's no citation, no explanation of the column in the article, and I can't find any relevant information on those phrases when I search through this site or on Google. There's also some other information in the notes which confuses me. What do the information on stars, festivals and Samothrace have to do with the calendar? Were they listed on the tablets? 71.13.147.17 (talk) 21:25, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This article is full of nonsense. There are numerous citations of Benigni's The Myth of the Year. I took a look at this book. I can assure you that it contains absolutely nothing relevant to this article. 99to99 (talk) 05:06, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * All uses of that book were added in these edits by . --Pokechu22 (talk) 19:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The chart claims that Samonios, the first month on the calendar, corresponds to "Dec-Jan." This claim is sourced only to our friend Benigni. The Celtic year began either on November 1 (Samhain) or (in my opinion) May 1 (Beltaine). Giamonios is obviously from Gam, which Cormac's Glossary defines as November. Samonios is six months later and therefore May. 99to99 (talk) 02:25, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

A Couple of Questions
I am undoubtedly grateful that the list of months is in far better shape than it was when they were all changed to fit one book's source. I certainly agree with the month setup regarding the start and I welcome the return of Delamarre as a source. However, I'm wondering ought more of a range be employed for the Gregorian equivalent months? Example: Samonios = May-June, Dumanios = June-July, etc. As only having one month on that may lead people to possibly thinking that there is a clear Gregorian equivalent where there is not. I'm also skeptical of the use of Irish holiday names in the entries as there's no proof the Gauls knew those names. Perhaps their inclusion is unnecessary? Neððamos (talk) 07:56, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Celtic word for deer
Currently the row for Elembivios asks to compare with
 * the Celtic word for "deer"

It's very hard to tell what word is being described here. To start Celtic is not a language but a family of languages. My first guess would be that this refers to the Proro-Celtic word for deer, however the only such word I could find is which does not appear to be a cognate of Elembivios. If I extend my search to just any Celtic language, I find descendents of *karwos in the Brythonic Branch.
 * Proto-Celtic: *karwos (deer)
 * Proto-Brythonic: (deer)
 * Brezhoneg: (deer)
 * Cornish: (deer)
 * Welsh: (deer)

On the Goedelic branch I find descendants of (wild)
 * Proto-Celtic: (wild)
 * Old-Irish: (deer)
 * Irish: (deer)
 * Manx: (deer)
 * Scottish Gaelic: (deer)

None of these are compelling cognates with Elembivios either. So I am left completely in the dark as to what this bit is intended to convey. It should be clarified or removed.

AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 09:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delamarre gives this month as mois du Cerf (month of the stag). He compares it to the Greek month. The name of the month is cognate with Greek ėlaphos, not with a Celtic word. 99to99 (talk) 10:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Fix
I’m hoping to fix up this page, as it’s in such a dire state. It needs careful clear writing, a good structure, and claims with some foundation. I am a new editor, so would be grateful for any help or advice. Macfeegles (talk) 22:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you - this article is indeed in dire shape. M.Aurelius.Viator (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

MORE INFO ON NOTATIONS
I think it would be helpful if we added a new section to give a brief description of each notation in turn and how it works. This is a general source of confusion for people looking at the calendar. I have tried to add a bit more under the 'sample month', but it's not really enough to explain things clearly as it stands. But, the question I want to float here is whether that is too detailed for the WP article? Macfeegles (talk) 04:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I've now finished the notations. One thing I've had difficulties with is the placement of text and the images.  I've gotten around this with lots of empty lines, but I'm not sure if this will be OK on all devices - would be grateful if someone more knowledgeable took a look at this for me please. Macfeegles (talk) 05:47, 22 March 2023 (UTC)