Talk:Collective salvation

Article started
The lede is the sumary of the article. So before putting up "citation needed" or similar, read the article - it should be covered there. And yes, in a few days, I will probably make corrections and additions as needed. As always, I welcome positive and constructive input. And please, lets be civil. If you have other quotes on "Collective salvation" from prominent figures, especially government figures, please let me and others know! As time permits, another article on "Individual salvation" would be a good addtion. Jrcrin001 (talk) 03:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Why should this article rely on quotes from "governement figures"? Last I knew, politicians were not religious authorities. Wouldn't it be better to look to what ministers, theologians, and relgious texts themselves say about "collective salvation?" This article lacks nuetrality due to a shallow and polemical interpretation of the concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.61.95 (talk) 17:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute
I am concerned about the lack of a neutral point of view in this article. This article echoes and cites a plethora of right-wing websites but does not present another point of view. There is little or no support for the assertions and associations in the article.

Please provide a neutral source for any link between "collective salvation" and "social justice."


 * [interjected] FIVE neutral sources as documented in the article which you must have missed. Not one "echoes and cites a plethora of right-wing websites" as was written above.


 * 10.^ Ackerman, Bruce A. (1980). Social justice in the liberal state. New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-02439-8.
 * 11.^ Catholic World News. Eternal Word Television Network, Global Catholic Network "Liberation Theology Leader to be Disciplined?". EWTN News. http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=76607 Eternal Word Television Network, Global Catholic Network. Retrieved March 9, 2007.
 * 12.^ a b The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "Nota explicativa alla notificazione sulle opere di P. Jon Sobrino, S.I.". www.vatican.va. http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/19857.php?index=19857&lang=po#TRADUZIONE%20IN%20LINGUA%20%20INGLESE. Retrieved 18 July 2010. NOTE: In 2007 when the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a Notification against him and “liberation theology” for what they see ‘’’as doctrines which are "erroneous or dangerous and may cause harm to the faithful.’’’ Father Sobrino's erroneous propositions concerned: "1) the methodological (non-doctrine) presuppositions on which the Author bases his theological reflection, 2) the (lack of) Divinity of Jesus Christ, 3) the (lack of) Incarnation of the Son of God, 4) the (improper) relationship between Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God, 5) the (humanistic) Self-consciousness of Jesus, and 6) the (non-saving value) ‘salvific’ value of his Death.
 * 13.^ Berryman, Phillip (1987). Liberation Theology: Essential Facts About the Revolutionary Movement in Latin America - and Beyond. Meyer Stone Books. ISBN 0-940989-03-4.
 * 14.^ Campbell, John C. (1981). "Review: Social Justice in the Liberal State". Council on Foreign Relations. http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19801201fabook13511/bruce-a-ackerman/social-justice-in-the-liberal-state.html. Retrieved 2010-09-08.

Please provide a neutral source for any difference between "liberal salvation" and "Christian salvation."


 * [interjected] SIX neutral sources as documented in the article which you must have missed. Not one "echoes and cites a plethora of right-wing websites" as was written above.


 * 1.^ a b c d Valea, Ernest. "Salvation and eternal life in world religions". Comparative Religion. http://www.comparativereligion.com/salvation.html#15. Retrieved 17 June 2010.
 * 2.^ a b Bull, Barry L. (1992). "THE CREOLIZATION OF LIBERALISM". College of Education at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/eps/PES-Yearbook/92_docs/Bull.HTM. Retrieved 2010-06-20.
 * 4.^ Min, Anselm Kyongsuk (1989). Dialectic of Salvation: Issues in Theology of Liberation. State University of New York Press. ISBN 978-0-88706-908-6. See also: Salvation and the Emerging church, liberal theology and liberation theology
 * 5.^ a b c d Taussig, Hal (2006). "Grassroots Progressive Christianity - A Quiet Revolution". Westar Institute by St David’s Uniting Church, Canterbury, Victoria, Australia. http://www.sdc.unitingchurch.org.au/WestarProgressiveArticle.pdf. Retrieved 2010-09-12.
 * 6.^ Berryman, Phillip (1984). The Religious Roots of Rebellion: Christians in Central American Revolutions. Orbis Books. ISBN 0-88344-105-5.
 * 7.^ a b c d Wagner, Wynn III (2009). "A Pilgrim's Guide to the Old Catholic Church". Mystic Ways Australia. http://www.amazon.com/dp/144999279X. Retrieved 2010-09-12.

Please provide a neutral source that anyone believes in "collective salvation" as described in this article.


 * [interjected] FOUR numbered neutral sources (and one of those with multiple cites) as documented in the article which you must have missed.


 * 3.^ Obama, Barack (2006). The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream. Crown/Three Rivers Press. http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/barackobama/. Retrieved 2010-09-11.
 * 8.^ Gavrilovic, Maria (2008). "Obama Delivers Wesleyan University Commencement Address". cbsnews.com. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-502443_162-4125955-502443.html. Retrieved 2010-09-11.
 * 15.^ a b c Wessinger, Catherine - edited by Thomas Robbins and Susan J. Palmer (1997). "Millennialism with and without the Mayhem". New York; London: Routledge. http://www.loyno.edu/~wessing/law/Encyclopedia/2.catastrophic.html. Retrieved 2010-09-03. Note: Catherine Wessinger is of Loyola University in New Orleans, Louisiana. See Also:
 * Catherine Wessinger, How the Millennium Comes Violently: From Jonestown to Heaven's Gate (New York: Seven Bridges Press, 2000).
 * Catherine Wessinger, ed., Millennialism, Persecution and Violence: Historical Cases (Syracuse: Syracuse University Press, 2000).
 * And entries in Encyclopedia of Millennialism and Millennial Movements; Robert H. Stockman, "Millennialism in the Bahá'í Faith: Progressive and Catastrophic Themes," paper delivered at the 12th Irfan Colloquium on Christianity and the Bahá'í Faith, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, UK, Dec. 6-8, 1996.
 * Note: The Wessinger terminology is frequently used among scholars of New Religious Movements in current conference papers. A further work that makes use of these terms is: Daniel Wojcik, The End of the World As We Know It: Faith, Fatalism, and Apocalypse in America (New York: New York University Press, 1997).
 * 17.^ Thompson, Bill (2008). "Barack Obama “Dreams From My Father” - Interview recorded 8/9/1995". Eye on Books.com. http://eyeonbooks.com/obama_transcript.pdf. Retrieved 2010-09-12.

With all due respect, this entire article reads like a politically-motivated strawman, masquerading as an academic article.Laurag4321 (talk) 16:08, 18 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Not one source given "echoes and cites a plethora of right-wing websites" as was written by the POV complaint above. And if you say that President Obama, CBS News and the sources cited in the article are part of some "right-wing" conspiracy and are part of a "politically-motivated strawman, masquerading ..." then respectfully some one is trying a POV hachet job and didn't check the sources. Jrcrin001 (talk) 01:27, 20 October 2010 (UTC)


 * POV dispute appears to be resolved. Please document here if furthers questions or comments are needed. POV tag removed. Jrcrin001 (talk) 18:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * These sources do not support the conclusions in the article. When President Obama spoke of "collective salvation," he referred to society, not in any religious context whatsoever.  Those sources do not back up the premise of the article.


 * The remaining sources are from a certain point of view, which is decidedly NOT neutral.

Previously unsigned comment added by: Laurag4321 (talk) 12:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Chime: There's a massive confusion here between religion and politics. You claim the article is about a religious concept, specifically a Christian one, but you cite a politician using the term in a clearly political context that is tangential to the point of your argument. Are you interested in theology or political science? Pick one. Aristophanes 68   (talk)  04:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

This article is in no way neutral and should be flagged appropriately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.193.210 (talk) 13:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

POV 2
President Obama has made it clear in his statements that his view of personal or individual salvation and collective salvation are intertwined. President Obama has declared that he is a Christian and when Christians talk of individual salvation or personal salvation it is in a religious context. Collective salvation is a concept of social justice and liberal or liberation theology. You have stated he was not referring to a religious context, but to a society type context. The article contains the following ...


 * "Because our individual salvation
 * depends on collective salvation." 
 * Democratic candidate Barack Obama

"Collective salvation or social deliverance is needed from the effects of social or personal sins against society or humanity. In this context, salvation represents liberation of all social groups to repair social and environmental relationships."

and

"Collective salvation is done by the raising up of the oppressed and marginalized, and the equal distribution of material and financial products produced by the capitalist society."

This is partly based on the religious/social justice concept of salvation described here under liberal theology and liberation theology. I very deliberately avoided any "right wing" sources. The article cites mostly "left wing" articles and books describing their own view and theology.

May I ask what do you see specifically as the "conclusions in the article" and the "premise of the article?" Please do not forget to sign your post with 4 didlas. Jrcrin001 (talk) 20:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

POV 3
This idea is not Obama's to begin with, nor is it by nature political or liberal. Just search the web for "nobody (or: no one) can be saved alone", and you will find a plethora of sources that have nothing to do with the current president of the USA. Especially in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, a religion known to be highly conservative (just not in the American sense), a religion that communists wanted to destroy with all their might, this statement has a long history. -- 77.7.172.234 (talk) 14:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course it is not Obama's idea. The article clearly states that "collective salvation" is from "liberation theoolgy" which predates Obama's birth. See Liberation theology. And you miss the point of the quotes. Obama made these quotes in his books, has spoken them many times and those are historical facts. If I found any other person in a political or public position who used "collective salvation" as a statement, that I could verify, I would use it. If you look at the top of this talk page, I ask for any other prominent or government figures who can be cited. If you can cite any, please let me know the source. I am not against President Obama, I support the Office of the President of the United States.


 * I am puzzled regarding your comment about Eastern Orthodox Christianity, since it is not mentioned in the "collective salvation" article, nor is "collective salvation" mentioned in the Eastern Orthodox Christianity or Liberation theology articles. Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think s/he was saying that CS is not simply from liberation theology but can be found in Eastern Orthodoxy and even, as I discovered in editing this article, in 3rd century Christianity. Moreover, CS isn't even limited to Christianity. This is another flaw in the article: you've set up a straw man of CS that has no historical validity whatsoever. Aristophanes 68   (talk)  04:24, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite
A Wiki tag has been put on the article regarding a rewrite of this article. Please list specific areas of needed improvement below. And it would be helpful to cite appropiate sections of Wikipedia to help on the re-write. Constructive comments are most welcome. Jrcrin001 (talk) 19:18, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


 * As per request, citations placed in lead/lede paragraphs. What else is needed? Jrcrin001 (talk) 17:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources and references
Jrcrin001, I notice that you have added some new references to the lead section. While I appreciate and support your efforts to improve the article, I'm not sure I have communicated Wikipedia's references policy. I don't question the existence of these individual concepts, I am requesting that you provide a source for the WP:Synthesis of these concepts into a statement or claim, ie "It supports the perpetual Marxist class struggle for the self-claimed “divine plan” of a socialist nirvana under the concept of progressive millennialism." Unless you can find a reliable reference (I would suggest investigating liberation theology) that says almost exactly that, you shouldn't include it in your article. I would also appreciate it if you would provide a quote from the source in your reference. Thanks-Editor2020 (talk) 14:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Editor2020,

How is the following?

Replace: "It supports the perpetual Marxist class struggle for the self-claimed “divine plan” of a socialist nirvana under the concept of progressive millennialism."

With: "It is a "principal methodological innovation" of Liberation theology and a requirement of Social justice. Both of the later are part of the Marxist "class struggle" to replace western capitalist society with a "socialist nirvana." Collective salvation can be achieved on earth "by humans working in harmony with a divine plan" under the concept of progressive millennialism."

All quotes used are cited within the article. Is this better? Jrcrin001 (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

POV tag again
This article is clearly not "about" collective salvation but "against" it. Plus, it has clear OR elements, even in the introduction--the footnotes don't make the claims that the author makes about them. It has been brought up for a discussion at WikiProject Christianity as a possible AfD. Aristophanes 68  (talk)  23:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I have never seen such an shark pack attack on Wikipedia before. Multiple deletion request pages with the same arguement. Gutting of the original article changing the focus and deletion of references and notes. Thus making other points weak or null. In general, I have always thought Wikipedia editors to be generally supportive in helping others in making better articles. Using a phrase for the need for deletion that was under review - AS Noted under the section Sources and references above by Editor2020 above and pending change as documented above - the main requirement for deletion. Before the massive gutting the article was like this here.

It is painfully obvious that an agenda is being driven by a few editors. Dicredit, refocus and neutralize. I used to support and encourage people to use Wikipedia. I can see that it has been radicalized by the PC police. Jrcrin001 (talk) 03:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment: The article as it stood demonstrated a clear doctrinal bias against the very topic of the article, contained loads of synthesis and had huge gaping holes in logic. And you accuse US of having a bias? The article you were writing was "Criticisms of modern Christian ideas of collective salvation." If that's what you want to write, then write it, but make sure the title of the article actually matches the content. Aristophanes 68   (talk)  04:15, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Update: I removed my edits so that the original claims and sources for the introduction and opening sections can be seen as they were left by the original editors when the AfD was first brought up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity. These removed edits include historical context that show that CS is a very old concept that is not limited to modern liberation theology. Aristophanes 68   (talk)  04:47, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Which "later monastic movements"?
The text reads "later monastic movements gave more attention to the idea of collective salvation ". The text should provide at least one or two examples of monastic orders that did this. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 06:28, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I rephrased that sentence a bit, the source I took that from just said it was a general trend in the Middle Ages. There might be something in the footnotes though. Qrsdogg (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2011 (UTC)