Talk:Colton Point State Park

FAC points
Many of the same things mentioned at Talk:Leonard Harrison State Park will also apply here. Here are some things unique to Colton Point:
 * Native American Trail and Railroad, Geology, Lumber (mostly)
 * There is a great picture (black and white) of a steam locomotive at the Point we could use here - West Rim had more trains
 * The West Rim Trail is only on this side, as is Barbours Rock (just north of the park)
 * CCC structures here are on the NRHP - the whoile park is a Historic District see this
 * The West Rim Trail Guide has some nice nuggets - trees and such, plus a nice story on the source of the name of Deadman's Run (Hollow?)
 * Park is surrounded by Tioga State Forest, unlike LH which has lots of private land nearby (east)
 * Famous fishermen on Pine Creek in the park - applies more to Colton Point as the cabins are on that side
 * Whitewater on Pine Creek Class III and II, start at Ansonia, go through the parks

That's all for now, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay sounds good to me. Dincher (talk) 03:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Do we want to include the Pine Creek Rail Trail in this article - technically is on the east side of Pine Creek, and so only in Leonard Harrison, not Colton Point. However the official Colton Point DCNR web page mentions the rail trail. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can live with it with the thinking that the park is affected by the trail and the railroad that used to be on it. Dincher (talk) 00:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OK by me, the park's own DCNR website is certainly a reliable source. I found a bigger picture of the locomotive at the Colton Point outlook to scan and a cool winter shot of the Four Mile Run trestle and a train on it. Also a photo of a log drive on Pine Creek. Ruhrfisch  &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * All sounds good to me. I am assuming we'll add Nessmuk and look for more info on Mr. Colton. Dincher (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Owlett and Dillon have a bit on Colton, but not nearly is much is known about him. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There might be some in the Shippen Township histories. I will look now. Dincher (talk) 01:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I also have Dillon's West Rim Trail guide - he has lots of stories about the area and may have something on Colton. Also lists plant species along the trail. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Haven't found anything on Henry Colton yet. Dincher (talk) 01:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Henry Colton
A mutual friend suggested I do some digging for you re Henry Colton. I checked federal census records and found a few pieces of information that might be of use. Henry was born about 1819 in Massachusetts, according to the 1860 and 1870 Federal Censuses for Pennsylvania. He lived in Williamsport, which was in Lycoming County, in the 1860, 1870, and 1880 censuses. He lived at 318 W 4th ST in Williamsport, according to the 1880 census. All three censuses show him as a lumberman. The 1860 census shows him with real estate valued at $7,800 and personal prop valued at $3,000. By 1870, his real estate was valued at $37,000 and his personal property at $64,000. His wife Elizabeth was born about 1830 in Maine. His sons Henry Mead and George were born about 1863 and 1868, respectively, both in Pennsylvania. I found a Henry born about 1822 in Massachusetts living in Caneadea, NY (Allegany County) with his parents Jonathan and Aurilla Colton in the 1850 census, but I can't say for sure it is him. I had no luck tracing back Jonathan Colton in the 1840, 1830, and 1820 censuses. The Wellsboro Agitator of 24 Aug 1880 shows that Henry died on 9 August 1880 at the age of 59. Henry could be identical with the Henry who served as a private in the Civil War in Lycoming County. See History of Lycoming County. --Pat (talk) 22:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much! Some issues of the Wellsboro Agitator are online here but apparently not 1880. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Here are the references you requested. I retrieved these records using the Ancestry.com database, which has a distinct display pagination compared to Federal microfilm records, which rely on certain stamped serial numbers in the corners of the images. So rather than try to use the Federal serials or Ancestry's page numbers, I've provided the enumerators' census record citations, which are common to both. Henry Colton is head of household in each of the below censuses and would appear in any indices produced.

Hope this helps. --Pat (talk) 02:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 1860 Federal Census for Pennsylvania, Lycoming County, West Ward of Williamsport, p. 214, Dwelling 1565, Family 1575, dated 2 August 1860.
 * 1870 Federal Census for Pennsylvania, Lycoming County, 6th Ward of Williamsport, p. 24, Dwelling 177, Family 175, dated 20 August 1870.
 * 1880 Federal Census for Pennsylvania, Lycoming County, District 73, Supervisor District 6, Enumeration District 73, p. 15, Dwelling 107, Family 136, dated 4 June 1880.
 * This is wonderful, thanks so much. I will try to find if his obit was in the Williamsport newspaper at the time tomorrow. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I found the Williamsport papers for August 1880 but could not find his obituary. Part of it may be my lack of experience with old newspapers. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Log drive picture
Is the image of the three log drive arks OK? I like it as it shows the log drive and the railroad. There is also Image:Pine Creek Log Drive.jpg which Taber says is on Pine Creek in "Williamsport Lumber Capital", but in "Sunset Along Susquehanna Waters" he has a more washed out version of the same photo, and says it is of a drive on Little Pine Creek. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry I just now noticed this. I think it is pretty safe to say that it is on Pine Creek. I don't think Little Pine is that big. It looks good and definetly serves the purpose. Dincher (talk) 01:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. Sorry my question was unclear - do you prefer the three arks picture in the article now, or the log drive photo (linked above) that probably is on Pine Creek - agree Little Pine is too little now. No idea if it was enlarged by a splash dam though, but I agree it looks more Pine than Little Pine. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I really like both pics. They are very compelling, especially the one with three arks, the child and the erosion control method on the far bank. The other pic is great too, it shows how labor intensive it was and dangerous. I guess my vote goes for the 3 arks. Dincher (talk) 02:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I also really like both. I don't have a replacement picture for the Pennsylvania Desert image - what about using the log drive in the Lumber history and the three arks and RR in Ecology, with a caption about how the gorge and Pine Creek have gone from a clearcut industrial highway to a protect NNL in a century and the Ecology has changed too. I would have to work on the caption, but you get the idea (I hope). Still no word from DCNR on the Lenny photo. I am ready to write an article on him and one on splash dams, just need the time. I am calling it a night, take care. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I am looking forward to the splash dam article. Don't forget to link it at McCalls Dam State Park. Dincher (talk) 02:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I put the Pine Creek log drive photo in the Pennsylvania Desert spot - it was easier to write the caption there (too much to explain for the arks and RR photo). What do you think? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

History
I have added to the Lumber era section. I was thinking of splitting the current Colton Point section into two parts. One could be called Conservation or something like it. It could have some of the Nessmuk information from Leonard Harrison SP, the purchase of the land by the state, the establishment of the Tioga State Forest, and perhaps a bit on the private land at the mouth of Fourmile Run with the three cabins there (one built and owned by former Gov. Stone, where Teddy Roosevelt fished Pine Creek, two built and owned by Leonard Harrison)(only two still stand, they are now two of three private cabins in the whole Ansonia to Blackwell stretch of Pine Creek).

The second section would be on the state park - not sure what to call it, maybe State park or Modern era? Anyway add the original small park, expansion after the major tourism year (from the DCNR Spotlight article), CCC built road there too, plus a bit more detail on the five CCC shelters and other CCC stuff (since there will not be a separate NRHP historic district article), plus whatever else from Lenny may fit here. I also wonder about adding the NRHP stuff to the Geobox since this will be the only article for a NRHP historic district. What do you think? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 18:14, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think modern era is best. This is what we went with at Black Moshannon. I am in full on Mr. Mom mode tonight and the Steelers will be on soon. Hence no wiki for me today. Have a good one. Dincher (talk) 19:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, the Conservation section is done for now - still need to work on Modern era. What kind of image should be in COnservation? We could reuse the Nessmuk image or perhaps use the cabin image shown here. If the cabins are used, I can crop the picture so the cabin at right is pretty much the focus of the picture. What do you think? I would then move the picnic shelter left and keep the drinking fountain right. Sorry about the Steelers. Take care, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the late reply in this matter. The Steelers stunk and I get in a funk when the lose like that. I think the cabin pic is good and I really like the water fountain alot. I've had many drinks of rusty tasting water out of those type fountains. We could always change pics as asked in PR and FAC. Dincher (talk) 00:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the Nessmuk image but am hesitant to use it again here. Dincher (talk) 00:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I added Image:Pine Creek Gorge Cabins Crop.JPG to the section for now. Will work on the Modern era expansion tonight. I laso like the Nessmuk pic, but am also hesitant to use it here. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The cropped version looks good. I had had some doubts, but it looks good. I thought it would be to fuzzy or small. Dincher (talk) 01:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Format
I would recommend that your opening section consist of one paragraph with only the most important highlights. I think you go into too much detail; much could be left for later. I think you should create a separate article for the gorge. A full expose on the gorge, especially as the first section, is distracting for an article supposedly about a park. --Pat (talk) 02:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Just to make sure you are talking about the "Pine Creek Gorge" section as the opening section (and not the lead, which should be 3 or 4 paragraphs long per WP:LEAD). There is a Pine Creek Gorge article already, although it needs to be expanded. Would it make sense to move the Pine Creek Gorge section after the History section? I think the original thought was to introduce the Gorge early in the article as it is the reason for the park's existence (and this follows the stucture of Leonard Harrison State Park). I will wait to see what Dincher and anyone else thinks before making any major changes in the article structure. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I prefer to keep things as they are, meaning not removing any info. I can go along with moving the gorge section to after the history section. But the Gorge is the star of the park. It's what makes the park special. Ideally both parks would be as one and known as Pine Creek Gorge State Park, but that's a whole new discussion. Dincher (talk) 03:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * FYI, I asked the two editors who peer reviewed this article and the two others who have weighed in on the whole article (not just images or refs) at FAC so far to comment on this too. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 16:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I was initially confused by the location of the Pine Creek Gorge section, and the alignment within it of a map that didn't appear to relate to the gorge. Others might be similarly confused. I think the following could be a solution:-
 * Move the section to after History
 * Moved. Dincher (talk) 21:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Move the map to the first subsection of History, so that it still comes near the top of the article.
 * The infobox extends into the history section and the map is right there. This looks good to me. Dincher (talk) 21:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Slightly change the beginning of the Pine Creek Gorge section, to reflect its new location in the article. I'd say drop the first line, and begin something like: "Pine Creek has carved a gorge nearly 47 miles (76 km) long through the dissected Allegheny Plateau in northcentral Pennsylvania. This gorge, which is also known as the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania..." It might be necessary to change some of the phrasing later in the section, again to reflect the new location, but I'd generally go along with Dincher's wish not to remove significant material.
 * Changed this per Finetooth's suggestion below. Dincher (talk) 21:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Consider putting a smaller scale map in the Pine Creek Gorge section, showing the extremities of the gorge, the places referred to in the text, and the location of Colton State Park.
 * I think these suggestions will add clarity. I regret I have been prevented from continuing my reading of the article as other things have intervened, but I intend to do so later this evening. I hope this helps. Brianboulton (talk) 16:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input and take your time. I will work on a map, to show most of the places mentioned in the article (but it will be fairly local - not including Baltimore or New York state or the Clearfield Coalfields). I think moving the Pine Creek Gorge section is OK, but think it still needs a first line that relates it to the park (which the article is about). Does this sound OK? I agree with Dincher that it seems odd to have these as two separate parks, but I also note that it takes well over an hour to hike from rim to rim and to drive from park to park is 10.4 mi. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 18:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Brian is seeing things I might have missed because I've visited the parks and canoed the gorge. I wonder if the problem might be solved by giving more emphasis to the gorge in the existing map. It's currently a thin, light-blue line that does not particularly stand out in the midst of other detail. Perhaps it could be slightly wider and slightly darker, and the caption could have an additional phrase, "Gorge in dark blue" or something like that. Then, the gorge section might start with "Colton Point State Park lies on the west side of the Pine Creek Gorge, also known as the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania. A sister park, Leonard Harrison State Park, is on the east side, and the two parks combined form essentially one large park that includes parts of the gorge and creek and parts of the plateau dissected by the gorge." That would make the relationship of the two parks to the gorge and to each other more clear at the outset,and perhaps the gorge section could stay at the top. Finetooth (talk) 18:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Made sentence change suggested. Can be changed more if needed. Dincher (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My 2 cents; as the gorge is the most prominent part of the park and without the gorge there is a good chance the park would not exist at all, it makes sense to me to give it a very prominent position in the article and I don't think there is any problem with it where it is. That said, moving it won't hurt the article either, so I suggest going with consensus.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I can make the creek a darker blue on the map and one pixel wider. I think the Gorge is defined as rim to rim, so I am not sure how to map that. I checked and all of the other Pennsylvania State Park FAs start with History (or Name for Worlds End State Park, which is basically History). I also assume whatever is done in terms of reorganization here will also be done at Leonard Harrison State Park. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't and outdent really a bump or perhaps a ? Thanks for the suggestions. They are all good. The point of view of someone who isn't familiar with the area is especially helpful. --Dincher (talk) 21:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I made a locator map and uploaded it here. If it is OK I will add it to the "Pine Creek Gorge" section. Feedback sought and welcome, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That looks good to me. How does it look from across the Atlantic? Finetooth (talk) 02:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I added the map to the Pine Creek Gorge section and rearranged the preceding images to alternate left and right. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was asked to give my opinion about moving the Pine Creek Gorge section. Personally, I wasn't a fan of placing that section first, so I like the idea. I'm not entirely sure why, though... just my opinion. Cheers, –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  03:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it has been moved to after "History" in both articles. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

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