Talk:Company of Death

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Further details about the role of the Company in the Battle of Legnano should be added in future, as a clarification about the different italian and anglo-saxon historiography on the company itself who refers to the same unit the first as a cavalry force and the latter as an infantry one Cunibertus (talk) 10:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what's going on here but if we are assertain whether this is a hoax, it can be settled fairly easily. The Company of Death defending the Caroccio at Legnano is the subject of a painting by Amos Cassioli, a copy of which is in Wikipedia commons here. Unfortunately, only half the picture is shown but the Death Company skull & crossbones is seen on the cavalry figure. Not much of a historical source but certainly proof of a pre-existing Legend. I have a large scale coffee table book Vezio Melegari The World's Greatest Regiments 1972 (originally published in Italy in 1968) which mentions the Company being led by Alberto da Giussano and consisting of either 300 (p.42) or 900 citizens (p.44) of Milan. So, not a hoax. Even if the exact truth of the Company cannot be established, it obviously plays a part in the national story of Italy and is worthy of an article on that basis. However, the article needs works to be brought past stub class and several statements are factually dubious (it is extremely unlikely that the Company would have been a light cavalry unit, for example). So Keep but improveMonstrelet (talk) 16:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

the different consistence of 900 or 300 men is simply due to the fact that the "company" was really composed of two units, two companies, not one. a bigger cavalry force also known as the knights of death (this the unit the legend claim commanded by Alberto da Giussano) and an infantry force who had both sworn to defeand the carroccio to death. the infantry unit was 300 men strong. the consistence of the cavalry unit is debated, 900 men is the number we get from Galvano Fiamma, but other sources say 300-500 and the modern scholars agree, for different reasons, around 500. the traditional point of view has been that the knights of death were heavy cavalry but more recent studies I used as source consider it as a more flexible medium force comparable to later dragoons able to fight both as armored infantry and cavalry, see the southern italian sergeant at arms of the osprey book on the normans as a reference Cunibertus (talk) 18:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've done a minor copy edit. I think it would be helpful if someone went through and put in some in-line citations (especially in the last paragraph).  There is some repetition which ideally should be sorted and I'd recommend that the large Italian quote is translated or edited out.  Finally, I think the Amos Cassioli picture could go on the main page. Monstrelet (talk) 18:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your editing, Monstrelet, about the Amos Cassioli's picture I would suggest, if possible, the use of the full version yet employed on the italian wikipedia http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La_battaglia_di_Legnano_di_Amos_Cassoli.jpg Cunibertus (talk) 20:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Good idea. Need to look up how to reference an image in another wikipedia.  I removed the hoax tag, which is clearly refuted.  Just wait on the Afd now.  Monstrelet (talk) 06:46, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Translation issue
In order to remove the translate tag, there is a need to tackle the Italian text. I've raised the issue here. Essentially two (and a half) choices; translate or edit out (or down). I don't speak Italian so I'm unable to tell whether it adds anything or not. Certainly, the article would read OK without. Monstrelet (talk) 18:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I see, I translated it, if in your opinion this can work pelase insert it in the correct way

''Noticed of the Emperor's coming, the Milanese (authorities) commanded to prepare the weapons to resist him. And a company ("societas") is made of nine hundred chosen men, fighting on great horses who swear that no one would have fled from the battlefield for fear of death and they would not allow anyone to betray the Municipality of Milan, and also they swore that they would have taken every day the battlefield to fight against the Emperor. At that point, the Municipality chosed the weapons and the banner, and a ring was given in hand to each one of these men and they were recruited as Knights in the pay of the City, so that if anyone had fled he would have been rightly killed. Head of this company was Alberto da Giussano who got the banner of the City. Then came another company made of chosen soldiers on foot, for the custody of the Carroccio, and all of them swore they would rather die than flee from the battlefield. And three hundred battle wagons ("vessels") are manifactured and for each one there were six horses covered (by armour), dragging the vehicle. In every wagon there were ten men moving sickles to cut grass meadows, to cut hostiles as sailors move the oars: it was a terrible equipment against the enemies.''

The mention of the battle wagons is very probably an anachronism, they were employed something as 30-40 yeas before the Battle of Legnano without any success by a Mastro Gualtiero a milanese Guild-master and magistrate, it is possible the chronicler was mixing facts as their effective use at Legnano isn't mentioned elsewhere, it may also be a rethoric device intended to recreate the appearance of the traditional trinitarian model of a "Holy Venture".
 * thank you for your help Cunibertus (talk) 19:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I jist inserted it myself, of course it still needs some fixing, I also changed some uncorrected assertions Cunibertus (talk) 20:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've done a little tidy- hope you don't mind? On the war wagons, although they are quite fascinating, they don't actually tell us about the Company and so therefore they need to be explained (which you've done).  You could edit down the translation by those couple of lines.  Monstrelet (talk) 06:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * thank you for your edition workd, Monstrelet, I think you have done a better work then I could. The only point is about Alberto da Giussano: You changed to get in to receive, but the original word can be translated as something as to carry. But Alberto da Giussano never received the banner from the Municipal Authorities, it is never attested. This can be an important point as the verb to carry was intended as Alberto was an important political leader who enlisted and commanded the Knights of Death of his own right at the service of the Municipality, with the rank of Banner commander (in Chief) short of a Condottiere. This is the origin of the legendary Alberto as a such important personality isn't attested outside the Battle of Legnano. recent studies guess that Alberto carried the banner not as a Banner commander but as an ensign, he was in reality the young scion of a Great House simply charged with that honor and not the Commander of the Knights of Death. The legend speaks of two brothers of him that were his shield bearers and protected him in the battle, and one of them is a Oto da Giussano historically known as an important Banner commander of the milanese militia in the time of the Battle around 1176. it is presently guessed that willing chroniclers and the Pride of a Great House successively enlarged the role of the young Alberto (whose name is effectively well attested years later after the Battle as a prominent magistrate, but not one of the highest, and too much young for an important role at Legnano or as an influent politician of the Lombard League as the legendary Alberto)Cunibertus (talk) 09:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. I've swapped the word to "carry" as the better translation.Monstrelet (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * if you think it is the better translation it is all right for me, I used to get as I wasn't sure on the correct translation. thank you very much for your help, Monstrelet Cunibertus (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)