Talk:Concordat of 1925

Untitled
congratulations, this is very good article, which could be model for future articles on concordats. It might benefit from some clarifications:


 * 1) The title concordat of 1925 does not indicate the country Poland
 * 2) The references to Lithuania are not necessarily related and misleading
 * 3) They did not improve when in April 1926 Pope Pius XII unilaterally …Pope Pius XII was not in office  until 1939.
 * 4) The concordat caused a severe conflict between Vatican and Lithuania. To be fair, they existed before. Unlike Poland, which the Vatican recognized at once, Lithuania was not recognized  until  November 1922. The recognition  included a stipulation by Pietro Gasparri to Lithuania, “to have friendly relations with Poland”.
 * 5) Popular outrage in response to the concordat Hm! …or, was it  an organized anti-clerical  campaign by the socialist party and the left-wing government ?? which existed since 1918, a Lithuanian government, which refused to accept virtually all episcopal appointments by the Vatican??
 * 6) They did not improve when in April 1926 Pope Pius XII unilaterally established and reorganized Lithuanian ecclesiastical province without regard to Lithuanian demands and proposals: It was more complicated: Fall 1925, the Catholic professor of Theology Reinys became Lithuanian Foreign Minister, and asked for an agreement. The Lithuanian military took over a year later, and a proposal of a concordat, drafted by the papal visitator Matulewicz,  was agreed upon by the end of 1926.  The concordat was signed a year later. Its content  follows largely the Polish concordat of 1925. (Schmidlin, Papal History, IV, 138) But does all this belong to the Polish concordat of 1925?
 * 7) The concordat has ended on 12 September 1945, when the Soviet-controlled communist government of Poland stated the fact during the war Vatican has appointed German priests to Polish parishes, violating the concordat   The actual Polish accusation was quite different and more serious. I changed the text therefore to “claimed”. Fact is that the specific Polish pretext is very relative, because all countries behind the “iron curtain” cancelled their concordats with the Vatican, Poland, Czecheslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, and, I think Yugoslavia. It was to be a part of the persecution policies against the Catholic Churchin all these countries.

--Ambrosius007 (talk) 11:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You obviously know much more about Vatican and its politics, but here's Lithuanian POV:
 * 3 - sorry, stupid error.
 * 4 - Lithuania was in general not recognized until 1922. And even if the relations were less than perfect, this crisis (including termination of diplomatic relations) was severe.
 * 5 - true, there was a campaign against Christian Democrats by the socialists. But Lithuanian public was unhappy - anything that had to do with Vilnius and was not in favor for Lithuania was met with popular outrages. The issue was hugely emotional. Christian Democrats was a leading party before 1925 - they had majorities in pretty much every parliament. The Third Seimas was the first were they clearly fell in opposition. And history books credit three major reasons for that: the concordat, corruption scandals, and general fatigue of a party which dominated the scene for more than six years.
 * 6 - I don't have the details with me right now & don't know on top of my head.
 * Feel free to improve on any of these points. Renata (talk) 15:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

In related news, I recall at least one of the Polish sources stating that the Lithuanian concordat (which surely deserves an artcicle) was very similar to the Polish one, or based on it as it became a model one for many others.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Renata3, I basically agree with you. The Vatican was often caught between Polish and Lithuanian sensitivities during these years, admonishing both sides repeatedly to calm down.(Pietro Gasparri, nuncio Achille Rattiordered to leave Poland, nuncio Bartlonini, wordered to leave Lithuania, and the outspoken Papal delegate Zecchini, who was bombarded with rotten eggs, while walking on the street of the capital. :-))

Therefore the concordat was not the only issue and maybe this discussion belongs in a larger framwork. But this is up to you folks! Kinldy take a look at my latest article which affects occupied Lithiania very much because of the Russian connection: Vatican and Poland (Pius IX - Pius XII). Thank's

--Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Proconsul, you are right, but someone else has to write it, I did the one on Poland for you! No more concordats. The historical arcticles on Poland and the persecutions were difficult,   because of  non-stop incredible crimes and unspeakable human sufferings since 1860. Both articles can be enlarged, if you are interested, I participate gladly. I continue with my other work. --Ambrosius007 (talk) 16:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the name, I based it on the list and naming used at Concordat. It may not be the best, we could also use Category:Concordats.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Holy See is NOT Vatican
Vatican and in earlier times Papal States were NEVER party of any concordats. It's always Holy See.

This is the same kind of ridiculous confusion as calling Barack Obama "President of Washington, D.C." and I see it all over Wikipedia!!! Is anybody checking anything here? (Polish version seems to get this right) 80.195.232.31 (talk) 14:57, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

B-class review
Passed for WPPOLAND. Good job, I'd consider this for WP:GAN. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:50, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

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