Talk:Contemporary Christian music

The Catholic guitar mass
There is a tension within Wikipedia as to whether the music of the Catholic guitar mass should be included in this topic. This current article mentions nothing of guitar masses, Ray Repp, the St. Louis Jesuits, or any modern music for the Catholic mass (Carey Landry, etc). And yet, the Wikipedia article on Ray Repp says that his 1965 album "Mass for Young Americans" represented some of the earliest stirrings of Christian contemporary music. This problem is somewhat analogous to how the Wikipedia article on "Christian Colleges" tends not to consider Catholic colleges as Christian colleges. It is somewhat insulting to Catholics that they are implied not to be Christians. Thus it is really hard to decide whether modern Catholic music pioneers like Repp and the SL Jesuits should be included in this article. --Westwind273 (talk) 21:59, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * How is there tension over the subject? I don't recall anyone trying to add it. Also, you did not point to a discussion happening about it elsewhere. It seems that it would be more appropriate to include it in the liturgical music article, or possibly in the article on contemporary worship music. I'm not sure why contemporary Catholic liturgical music is not a good location to discuss it though. The contemporary Christian music genre is not an umbrella genre for other genres though. It's essentially the Christian version of pop music.
 * I'm sorry that protestants are treating Roman Catholics poorly on the Christian colleges article. Granted, Roman Catholics have caused a few problems elsewhere by claiming the term "Catholic" for only themselves. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:57, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I came here to discuss in good faith, not bicker. If you want to discuss with mutual respect, I'm fine with that, but I'm not going to bicker. --Westwind273 (talk) 04:51, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I did not realize there was bickering. I was pointing out that you did not point to where this tension was created and existed. I then tried to explain where a better location for this topic was in hopes that you would explain why you felt that a guitar mass should be discussed here. I also tried to explain why some editors might take umbrage with with Roman Catholics, but I apparently created some of my own. If you actually want to discuss, feel free to. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

New section - Rejection of the label
A number of bands have made high-profile rejections of the CCM label. I think that's significant for this article, in part because these usually include discussions of the meaning and significance of being labelled as "Contemporary Christian music". I'm thinking of, eg. Needtobreathe and Mutemath. Daask (talk) 14:32, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * What did you have in mind? Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:49, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Went ahead and added this. Due to the no original research policy, I'm not sure how much discussion we can put in, but the artists' own words are citable. Keshiik (talk) 03:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

"Stylistically-rooted in Christian Music?"
Thoughts: One, I have no idea what that definitively means, and neither do you, especially "stylistically." Two, considering this topic is "contemporary Christian music" and given that term's typical usage, is there any reason the "stylistically-rooted" note shouldn't read "in pop/rock music?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:2240:7DAD:B08C:56C1:63F2:C334 (talk) 12:07, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:SOFIXIT. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:38, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Style and Artists
The list of artists is severly out of date, including Third Day (which has now disbanded), Aaron Shust who hasn't released any popular music in a while, and under the historically part, Newsboys, who recently released an album, and has never disbanded. I think one band that should definatly be included is For King and Country, who is the one of the most popular artists in the genre. They have won grammys for their work, and just overall should be apart of this list. Cherrell410 (talk) 21:28, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

“Propaganda”
This is a pretty exceptionally poor wording. Referring to a genre as “propaganda” seems about as silly as saying that black metal is Satanist propaganda, or that punk music is liberal propaganda. I’m actually baffled this has been included - it’s beyond unencyclopedic. Toa Nidhiki05 18:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see where the genre is called propaganda; at least not in the lead which summarizes the article. Goodtablemanners (talk) 01:16, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, the phrase is inflammatory, the VICE article that is cited contains the statement "contemporary Christian music (CCM) has often functioned as a propaganda wing of the Christian right." But that isn't what the article is about, the thesis statement for the article is "Queer musicians say the industry is facing a spiritual crisis: Adapt to a new generation of listeners, or die." While the article is using inflammatory language, such as "propaganda", "spiritual crisis", and "adapt or die", it isn't doing so to prove those points. It is using the language to explain contrasting ideas in the Christian music industry. The current criticism section lists several opponents to CCM within conservative circles, so I don't see how they could see it as a propaganda arm. 2601:8C0:C7C:3DF0:1A9:3E7C:C72E:3635 (talk) 02:29, 7 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh, I see it now; at the end of the History section. But it doesn't say that the genre itself is propaganda. It says that it's often been used by the Christian right as propaganda against LGBT interests. The word "propaganda here seems to come from the first named source, an article in Vice. Looking over that article it seems to be more of an argument than a straight news source and Vice is not a strong source anyway according to WP:Perennial Sources. Still, there's no real doubt that Christian pop music has had anti-gay messages. I would say that we shouldn't just copy the writer's use of the word "propaganda" which is almost always used as a negative but instead just say that Contemporary Christian music has often included anti-LGBT messages. Goodtablemanners (talk) 02:59, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

As perennial sources recommends, I think you're correct that we shouldn't be using the hyperbole from the VICE article verbatim. I passed the original statement through ChatGPT, and it said that it was biased. But it recommended that it be changed to this: "Contemporary Christian music audiences tend to be conservative but there are many on the Christian left within the genre, as such, diverse viewpoints have prominence in the genre Christian LGBTQ artists." So that's what I think we should go with, it removes the inflammatory language and it better reflects the given sources Vice, The Grammy's, LAist, and Pride Source. 2601:8C0:C7C:3DF0:1199:4BB0:FD7F:23E4 (talk) 15:11, 7 April 2023 (UTC)