Talk:Copper/Archive 1

Untitled
Elementbox converted 15:14, 2 July 2005 by Femto (previous revision was that of 10:21, 2 July 2005).

Picture Caption Not Correct
The citation of the picture showing an open pit copper mine in Chile claims it is the largest open pit copper mine in the world. This is not correct. See http://www.kennecott.com/about_kennecott.html

71.36.69.136 18:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I give up
User:Vsmith absolutely don't want to know who's producing copper and putting it on the market. All the other metals have that information. Steel has it, all of them has it. But not this one. - Jerryseinfeld 03:15, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Info on producers is OK, but - I'm certain Phelps Dodge isn't the only one out there. At least back in the '70s when I worked in the copper industry, PD had lots of competition. Your edits looked like a promotion for a single big company - so I reverted. If iron and other metals have similar promotion like info they should be cleaned up also. I'll check 'em out when I get time. -Vsmith 14:44, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Nope. I just checked a dozen or so metals from Al to Zn - no company commercials found. Steel did - it isn't a primary metal. Doesn't now. -Vsmith 16:11, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Image error
You may have seen the recent comments about the wrong no. of neutrons on copper. I have reported the error (see recent history) to the person who posted the image, so hopefully we will get copper with only 34 neutrons on it. Walkerma 16:03, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph
There should be a brief physical description at the top, including color, malleability, ductility, etc.

Toxicity
Two points I would like to see added:

The toxicity of copper is largely related to redox cycling and the catalysis of reactive oxygen species production (hydroxyl radical for example)(aka free radicals).

There is growing evidence that copper may play a signifcant role in the aggregation of protein plaques in the neurodegenerative diseases Alzheimer's and CJD, vCJD.

Molecular Aspects of Medicine 26 (2005) 405-420

Copper is not a cumulative poision, right? So if someone got sick from an overdose of copper, they will recover as long is the dose was not fatal? Arsenic will not do that? Also, if a toxic level of Copper Sulfate is ingested, it will trigger a vomit reflex and thus not be absorbed, right? Jokem (talk) 20:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

photograph of "copper" ??
under PHYSICAL PROPERTIES the yellow coloured nugget shown at left as an example of copper is actually a GOLD nugget! the colour and surface texture are obvious! A copper photo should be found and this one deleted (or moved to a gold page)


 * Agreed - looks more like gold to me, therefore removed image link. Also need a better image of native copper than the one below - maybe I'll get my camera out and do it someday :-) - Vsmith 17:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Horsehoe crab?
If I'm not mistaken, most (all?) invertebrates use copper instead of iron as an oxygen transporter. It's misleading to mention the horseshoe crab, as it implies that this specie is unique in this respect.

Occurence
I'd like to know how abundant copper is as a resource. How much is still left to be mined? (83.118.38.37 01:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC))
 * Copper supply is not at risk during the immediate future. For an article on a recent study, see:    Rklawton 18:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * An older source predicts that we've already run out:  Rklawton 19:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

In the late 1960s, Paul Ehrlich's bestseller The Population Bomb predicted famines that would kill hundreds of millions in the 1970s as the world's population passed the sustainability point. The landmark 1972 Limits of Growth study by the Club of Rome predicted that if consumption continued to exponentially expand, the world would run out of gold by 1981, mercury by 1985, zinc by 1990, petroleum by 1992, and copper, lead and natural gas by 1993.

The Olympic Dam Copper deposit in South Australia has a mine life of close to 100 years at the moment, and we are still finding more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.167.15.163 (talk) 02:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Cu for wire bonding
I do not agree with the fact that Cu is used for wire bonding. Cu will suffer from fast oxidation which will make the bonding fragile. Any comments of experts?

Also just mentioned on the wire bonding page, apparently it is stored in sealed packages before use.--KingCarrot 15:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

In Reply

Copper is the most common form of cable used for electrical wiring, aluminium and steel are used on larger camble sizes. The conductor is covered in a coloured pvc or lsf sheath protecting the metal from oxidation. Typical sizes of cable are 1.0mm3, 1.5mm3, 2.5mm3, 4.0mm3, 6.0mm3, 10.0mm3, 25.0mm3. From 4.0mm3 the cable tends to be stranded to allow for flexability without damage. Larger sizes ans smaller sizes exist but these are the ones I have dealt with.

No incomplete d-shell?
Question. Cu: [Ar] 3d10 4s1 (more stable than [Ar] 3ds9 4s2) It has a COMPLETE d-shell but it is still classed as a transition metal - why is this?

Answer. Cu2+ (a common ion of Copper) has the electron arrangment: [Ar] 3d9 It has an INCOMPLETE d-shell thus copper is transitional.


 * How rigid is that definition? Gotta have some flex to fit reality. Cu isn't the only exception to the rule. Consider Palladium [Kr] 4d10 with no 5s and a full 4d.
 * I'd say they're both transition metals with configurations that fail to strictly comply with our overly rigid def. Vsmith 01:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Smelting etc
The present article contains no information as to how copper is smelted. Furthermore, the section on mining seems to be limited to prehistoric mining in the Brtiish Isles. Should there not be something about the rest of the world and about more modern periods. Perhaps these should appear in some kind of satellite article. Peterkingiron 23:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Copper was traditionally smelted from the sulphide ores like chalcopyrite; in recent times, ie the last 20 years Copper Oxide have been an increasingly common source via the SX/EW process.--Oswalia 12:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * See the links under Occurrence. Vsmith 02:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I had missed those, but they seem only to deal with present day techniques, not historic ones. Peterkingiron 22:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Price
Any chance someone could add something on the copper market, and what are perceived to be the main influences on it?

The recent price charts seem quite extraordinary, at least.

Copper is first and foremost the electrical metal. Thus its usage and the growth of usage depends largely on electricity demand, and by implication, GNP growth. Copper supply underwent a revolution in the 1980's and 1990's with the conversion of many abandoned spoil heaps containing Copper Oxides into worthwhile sources of cheap metal. With global GNP rising and the supply revolution having been completed, there is little marginal supply and no good replacement; hence the price action in the last year or so.

RandomP 09:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I presume that this is the result of industrialisation in the Peoples Republic of China. This has transformed the market for several minerals and the metals made from them.  For example, it has saved several steelworks that were earmarked for closure.  However, mining and metal industries tend to be cyclical.  There is a glut, so capacity is cut by closing older works; then capacity is too little and the price rising.  That stimulates more works to be built, but ends off with excess capacity.  I am not an expert in that and so have refrained from amending the article.  Peterkingiron 22:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. It would be nice to include a mention of it.

Jak722 21:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Homoeopathy
In the h. you use copper against cramps, asthma and other spasmodic dieseases like (cramp) cough. Copper has the latin name cuprum. Usual you take pills D4 or D6. Ampoules have normally D8. --Fackel 00:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Copper content in U.S. coins
The numbers in this article for the copper content of U.S. coins are completely wrong. Or rather these numbers do not agree with the official numbers given by the U.S. mint, here: http://www.usmint.gov/faqs/circulating_coins/index.cfm?printer=no&flash=yes&action=faq_circulating_coin Presumably all these percentages are by weight.

Correct numbers:


 * U.S. Pennies are  2.5% copper by weight (Balance zinc 97.5%).
 * U.S. Nickels are 75.0% copper by weight (Balance nickel 25.0%).
 * U.S. Dimes are   91.7% copper by weight (Balance nickel 8.3%).
 * U.S. Quarters are 91.7% copper by weight (Balance nickel 8.3%).

I am working on an edit with citation and stuff now, but it may take a while I am still figuring out how to do that. Buck Leupitsthlaw 19:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I decided to go ahead and make the edit. Also decided that citation wasn't necessary since the U.S. Pennies,U.S. Nickels, U.S. Dimes, U.S. Quarters pages contain adequate citations to the U.S. Mint. Also, now the numbers in the copper article agree with those articles, wrt U.S. coins. Buck Leupitsthlaw 20:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That seems interesting. It could also be noted that pennies are now actually worth more than one cent because of their value as copper.Slartibartfast1992 01:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Toxicity
Could anyone confirm that copper powder is more toxic than Beryllium powder when inhaled (or ingested) 8-)--Light current 11:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Units
Howabout standard units of measure... i.e m^3 instead of cm^3? wouldn't that be much clearer?

chalkos
on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcogen it says that chalkos is "ore". It can't be both, can it?
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorclaessen (talk • contribs)


 * Why not? Assuming the ores known by the Greeks on Cyprus were copper sulfide ores, then chalkos could be both. Vsmith 12:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Chalkos is indeed the Classical Greek for Copper, and sometimes its alloys such as brass and bronze. Chalcogen should therefore mean copper-forming; if this is indeed the name for oxygen, sulphur, selenium, tellurium and polonium, there is something odd about that chemical term.  Apparently the person who coined the term did intend it to mean 'ore forming', but this seems to me a case of bad etymology; copper is the oldest base metal, but not the only one.  Peterkingiron 23:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Complete history
I find no mention of the massive deposits of copper in Northern Michigan. 13 Billion pounds of copper and 16 million ounces of silver have been taken from the area since 1845.(http://www.exploringthenorth.com/redmetal/tours.html) Prior to that is is estimated that 1.5 billion pounds had been minned since about 5000 BC.(http://www.exploringthenorth.com/cophistory/cophist.html)

Can we be more specific than, "In Greek times..." under the 'history' heading?! Very uncool.

"Copper band corrosion"
Base for additions : band, corrosion and this copper article.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to be about. Does it mean "band" as in "wedding band" or "conduction band" or what? Why does this deserve a whole section in this article? —Keenan Pepper 23:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

GA
I've put the GA on hold for 7 days. Issues include:
 * Expansion of intro - Lead section
 * Sorted Blood red sandman 16:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Several tags still in article
 * unsourced information removed Blood red sandman 16:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Cleanup references, preferably to all in-line refs
 * someone else is going to have to do this - I hit upon problems trying Blood red sandman 16:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorted - all but two are now footnotes, and I think the other two are better left as is anyway - Blood red sandman 16:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Pics in Applications section need organizing
 * I agree, but I'm at a dead loss about what should be done. Any sugestions? Blood red sandman 16:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed pics, I think I can live with em like that.  Jo  e  I  18:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Historical copper mining section - I see no modern mining section, why distingush historical, and Britian and US were the only two countries to mine copper?
 * I've done a little bit of sorting, but it could be better - Blood red sandman 16:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * A "see also" section would be nice.
 * What sort of articles should I include here? Other elemental metals? Seems a bit vague Blood red sandman 16:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A see also isn't mandatory, just something I like to see. Most relevent links would probably be covered in the article or category.

Good luck  Jo  e  I  01:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Seems all major issues have been resolved. I see no reason why this article shouldn't be GA.  Good Job :)   Jo  e  I  04:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Micro Structure?
I think this article should include something about the micro-structure of copper. i.e. I think it would be a good idea if there was a diagram showing a lattice of copper atoms.

Copper has a microstructure of a face centred cubic metal crystal, as illustrated below:



This image should be included in the article.--BusinessMan1 20:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the article should include a crystallographic image of copper! i.e. Light microscope image; A Scanning Eletron Microscope (SEM) or Transmision Electron Microscope (TEM) image might be better! -- KLD - 23 June 2008, 17:00 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.141.15.34 (talk) 14:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

antiseptic
I heard on a television show once that copper can kill bacteria in water. I still have the tape of it. --Metallurgist 03:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Quick question
How is copper mined and extracted? Is it by open pit or underground mining?

Pece Kocovski 00:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Either way, depending on the best way of mining the deposit. Sometimes copper is a byproduct of mining for gold. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 06:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

In Butte, MT the Berkeley pit was an-open pit copper mine.
 * In Butte, it started out as open-stope underground mining. I think they tried block-caving at one point, and ended up mostly open-pit (in the Berkeley). The Contenental pit is still active.BSMet94 20:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Illegal commandeering?
Is it worth mentioning in here that the current ridiculously high price of (Whatever the really good grade copper is called) is is causing numerous thefts of the stuff? 68.39.174.238 00:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's certainly interesting, if you can get a reputable article - but the comment would fit better in an article on (whatever really good grade copper is called) itself! This article has to be very broad, and probably shouldn't include such details, IMHO. Walkerma 04:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Secondary Metal Recyclers & Copper Theft might be a good ref.--Stone (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Molecular formula
All this information about the atom copper is really nice but I don't believe it mentions the molecular formula for solid copper. Anyone know what it is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.182.167.18 (talk • contribs)
 * Copper is not a molecule, it is an element, its symbol/formula is 'Cu'. Hope this helps.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 23:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Extraction - merge proposal
We appear to be developing two parallel articles, some rather incomplete details of copper mining here and a much fuller article on copper extraction. I would suggest that the section on mining here should be largely removed, leaving a brief general statement covering occurence, mining and extraction. I would appreciate comments before I start interfering. Peterkingiron 18:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Toxicity
I recently read about several manifestations of copper toxicity, and the industrial applications that caused them. The two that stick out in my mind are the smothers, a condition described by copper smelters, and vintner's lung (unsure of name accuracy), which is caused by the copper-sulfate sprays used as antifungicides by the wine industry. The source is Copper Deficiency and Toxicity by Charles A. Owen, Jr. I'll write something up and post it here... Stacydreis 21:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)stacydreis

B-Class
GA class is not part of project assessment scales, and GAs are not tracked by WP Bot 1.0. The assessment level has been set to B class. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The system changed... --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

How does Cu get there?
I believe that the article states that Cu is obsorbed in the gut and then treats several symptoms (im paraphrasing) but it never said what foods Cu comes from this could be a viable part of information, why is it not in here, and what are the foods it comes from? Chuck61007 02:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

"i am the best"
is it just me or did someone add random "i am the best" statements in the article Fralexandr 22:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep - vandalism like this happens all the time. It's fixed now.  Feel free to step in and revert it whenever you notice.  --Ed (Edgar181) 22:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

DENSITY? -
$$Insert formula here$$ Is it me or has a spastic quoted density in gcm-3? I didn't know that was SI! cm is not a measurment of anything - it's french and not in a good way. please correct this to kgm-3. Such a small point but one which should be addressed. Only teachers use cm as a measure. And they also told me that gravity was created because of the saturns rings! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.54.174.70 (talk • contribs) 09:30, 31 May 2007


 * Density is usually quoted in g cm−3 in chemistry - it makes the numbers less cumbersome. Also, sort your abusive language out!


 * Ben 19:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Green color?
Hi.

What exactly is being referred to here?

"In its liquified state, a pure copper surface without ambient light appears somewhat greenish, another characteristic shared with gold."

Does this refer to the incandescence color, since that's all you're going to see without ambient light (You need to drown out the incandescence in order to see the "real" color, which means BRIGHT light.)? Should that be mentioned? It doesn't seem 100% clear the way it is. mike4ty4 07:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Tests for Copper (II) ion
I think the equation for the reaction of copper (II) ions with aqueous ammonia is wrong. It has 22 H atoms on the left and 24 on the right. --Alistair

Reaction to oils on skin
Is it posible that copper reacts to oils found on your fingers? If so then perhapps it should be added to the article. 8th sinn 19:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)8th sinn8th sinn 19:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review
I am rereviewing this article in accordance with WikiProject Good Articles Sweeps Review, to see if it continues to meet the Good Article criteria. Sadly, I can't say that the article currently meets the criteria, and will be delisted. There are a wide number of significant issues with the article, mostly prose and reference citation issues. Most obviously, the 'applications' section is just a collection of lists, and should be written as prose. There is also a WP:MSH issue with the link in the subsection header for piping. With the exception of the coinage subsection, and two other minor citations, the material in this section is largely unreferenced and unverified. While a lot of it is relatively obvious to most (e.g. copper wiring, copper pipes), statements such as the specific amount of copper in the statue of liberty should be sourced, as should some of the lesser known uses of copper.

The history section is reasonably well written but is also largely uncited, with the exception of one paragraph. Where did this information come from?

In the 'copper mining in britain and the US' section, it would be good to eliminate the bulleted list under the britain/ireland part, writing prose similar to the US part. This also doesn't seem to establish a very worldwide view, focusing solely on three countries. Certainly, copper is mined and used in other nations as well. This should be expanded.

The remaining sections are also seriously underreferenced as well, with most of them containing zero sources. The 'Tests for copper(II) ion' section looks mainly like a collection of equations, with very little context to its significance. More actual prose should be provided to show the significance of this.

The images, particularly the ones at the right side near the bottom of the article, could be better reorganized within sections. At times, they appear to be just stacked right on top of the other with not much correlation to the text, as if there's too many images and editors don't want to throw any out.

I'd currently assess this article as a good, solid B-class article, but not as a GA. Please renominate it at WP:GAC when this issues are resolved and it meets the GA criteria. Dr. Cash 18:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

different shear modulu in 2 article?
Here, the shear modulus of copper is 48 GPa but in Shear_modulus the shear modulus of copper is 63.4 GPa Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.189.248.193 (talk) 03:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Beware estimates of remaining copper resources, especially from environmentalists
They rarely understand what reserves and resources mean. Availability of most metals and minerals is price dependent. As the price rises, more and more previously uneconomic mineralised rock becomes worth mining and geologists go out and find yet more. The U S Geological Survey, a most reputable organisation, currently puts world reserves (economic ore) at 490 million tonnes copper, the reserve base (including rock that could well become economic) at 940 million tonnes copper and total global land based resources at over 3 billion tonnes copper plus 700 million tonnes in deep sea nodules. There is plenty of it around. Remember those Club of Rome estimates in, I think, 1974? Mafestel (talk) 17:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, if there is a known reserve sufficient for 15-20 years, mining companies have little incentive to search for new ore sources. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

And also recycling becomes more economical. Jokem (talk) 20:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Copper Age
The Copper Age section states that the oldest findings where in northern iraq or (without reference), but the literature stats that Çayönü tepesi has the oldest relicts of cold formed native copper and that the first significant amount of metalurcic evidence was found in Çatalhöyük and another article states that all anatolian copper from 7th millenium BC was made from hammered native copper but two things from Catal Hüyük and Yarim Tepe I. # --Stone (talk) 13:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Feel free to update that part with referenced information. Nergaal (talk) 14:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I will do! But basically I dropped the info here not to lose the references I already found.--Stone (talk) 14:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would strongly discourage the expansion of this section. This article is about Copper (as an element) and has to cover all aspects.  I have added a "main" template, to direct to the place where expansion should take place, if this is to be done.  An article such as this should not be overburdened with detail.  Peterkingiron (talk) 11:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, but the statment first copper artefacts are ....BC old and are found in .... is worth for the main article on copper! Most of the rest of the Copper history is to long and can go into an article History of Copper.--Stone (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No objection, but a brief summary of such an article should be kept in this one. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

dihydrophil hydratase
There are only google hits which are from wiki for dihydrophil hydratase, and google scholar finds nothing so what is this enzyme like and whats its real name?--Stone (talk) 11:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

toxicology
the two references: will be included soon.--Stone (talk) 14:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

production
The production is focusing only on the economics and the price of copper, and the rest is the crystall ball predictions of peak copper. The productions methodes like bacterial leching and eletctro plating should at least be mentioned.--Stone (talk) 13:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There certainly should be a short section on this, with what is at present a cross-reference used as "main" article, but you should bear in mind this is a general article on the element. The right place for detail is in such sub-articles.  Nevertheless several sections need significant editing, to sort out a lot of minor additions.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Copper as an insulator?
Under the heading 'Modern period' is the following statemement: "In the early 1800s, it was discovered that copper wire could be used as an insulator," Should this read 'conductor'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tctwood (talk • contribs) 05:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This is something very wrong with this section, but I do not know what the correct answer is. The fact that this is associated with several red links makes me think that it has been added by an inexperienced editor: we may have vandalism or WP:OR.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Image error
The picture is wrong



because the metal contains Cu+ not Cu2+ Jcwf (talk) 21:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Columbus?
A cite is needed for the claim that Columbus's ships used copper plating. Especially since the text implies that copper plating started in the 17th century, and copper sheathing of ships in the 18th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.96.108.47 (talk) 18:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Added ref to the claim. --Wizard191 (talk) 18:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Copper link to Alzheimers.
Perhaps someone with more time can add a section about the discoverd link between copper and Alzheimers. (to those who have some resistence to this, most things can be harmful if there is a vulnerability or excess of...ie water)


 * Research as recent as 2007, conducted by Dr R. Squitti, Head of the Laboratory of Biology of AFaR and of the Laboratory of Neurobiology in the University "Campus Biomedico" added, "'Free' copper may be intrinsically toxic to older persons due to its oxidative activity, small size and ability to cross the blood brain barrier and enter the central nervous system in an unregulated fashion, similar to elevated 'free' copper's effects in other diseases of copper metabolism, such as Wilson's disease."

Thanks

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 17:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * More guesses.
 * Bork (talk) 14:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:21, 2 May 2016 (UTC)