Talk:Council for National Security

Article should be renamed Council for Democratic Reform under the Constitutional Monarchy
The official website of the military junta identifies itself in English as "the Council for Democratic Reform under the Constitutional Monarchy". The article should therefore be moved. Does anybody disagree? Patiwat 08:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Up to you ! Roger jg 16:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it makes sense to include "the" in that case, and it might have been a case of mistranslation on the part of the junta. In English, it just sounds weird. The general meaning of the name, however, should of course stay, which is why it isn't anymore under the name Administrative Reform Council. But if no one agrees with me, maybe it should be moved. LittleDan talk 02:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The official name includes the "the", and even if it sounds weird (which I agree) we should use the official name. If I see no other substantial disagreements within 24 hours, I'll go ahead and move the article. Patiwat 23:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In light of the most recent name change to Council for Democratic Reform, I think we can all agree to move it to that name, as it is the official translation and works well in English. I'll do that. I hope the name doesn't change yet another time. LittleDan talk 01:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Translation of the junta's name
The official translation of the junta's name is the "Council for the Democratic Reform under the Constitutional Monarchy". Although official, this isn't really accurate: the Thai name literally is the "Council for Reform of Administrative of Democracy with a Monarch as Head of State". The Thai name does not make any pretense as to "Democratic Reform," merely to "Reform". The Thai name also makes no mention of the Constitution, which makes sense given that the first thing the junta did was to abrogate the Constitution. These facts should be noted in the article. Patiwat 08:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As written above, the junta translates its name as "the Council for Democratic Reform under the Constitutional Monarchy". While perhaps the definite articles should be removed for stylistic reasons, the general meaning should stay the same. LittleDan talk 02:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, could you cite a source for that translation? (Or, if you translated it yourself, which seems likely, do you know where a citable corroborating translation could be found?) I included the direct translation on the page, but it needs a citation. Thanks, LittleDan talk 03:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My own translation. Although Verifiability discourages using self-translations, I think the intention is for application to larger references and not short phrases or individual words.  I'll be happy to remove it if somebody finds the translation controversial.  Patiwat 23:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

What to do when CDR becomes Council for National Security?
What should we do when the CDR changes its name to the Council for National Security? Just change the name of the article and make sure any redirects continue to point here? Patiwat 23:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The time has been set: from Monday onwards, the CDR will be known as the Council for National Security. . When that occurs, somebody please change the article name (while editing the main page, hit the "move" tab on the top of the page). Patiwat 07:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Patiwat 23:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Out of date
The article seams to be outdated for a long time. It does not state how and when the Council was disbanded and Thailand returned to civil administration and government. That must have happened in early 2008! And still it is not mentioned here. -- RJFF (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Transcription
The transcription of "คณะปฏิรูปการปกครองในระบอบประชาธิปไตยอันมีพระมหากษัตริย์ทรงเป็นประมุข" should be "Khana Patirup Kan Pok Khrong Nai Rabop Prachathipatai An Mi Phra Maha Kasat Song Pen Pramuk" because separate words should be separated from each other. The separate words are:


 * คณะ khana – "council"
 * ปฏิรูป patirup – "reform"
 * การปกครอง kan pok khrong – "government, administration"
 * การ kan – a word placed in front of a verb to make the verb a noun.
 * ปกครอง pok khrong – "govern, administer, rule, command, etc." Pok khrong are a couplet (คำซ้อน), consisting of two words bearing the same or similar meanings: pok ("protect") and khrong ("control"). Such linguistic couplets (and even triplets, quadruplets, and so on) are often found in Thai language. For example:
 * couplets
 * chap kum (จับกุม, "arrest") consist of chap ("hold") and kum ("hold").
 * dueat ron (เดือดร้อน, "troubled, anxious") consist of dueat ("boiled") and ron ("heated").
 * man khong (มั่นคง, "secure") consist of man ("firm") and khong ("firm").
 * thot thon (ถอดถอน, "remove (from office, etc.)") consist of thot ("remove") and thon ("remove").
 * triplets
 * khao pla ahan (ข้าวปลาอาหาร, "food") consist of khao ("rice"), pla ("fish) and ahan'' ("food").
 * phueng pha asai (พึ่งพาอาศัย, "rely on, count on, depend on") consist of phueng ("depend on"), pha ("depend on") and asai ("depend on).
 * quadruplets
 * dueat nuea ron chai (เดือดเนื้อร้อนใจ, "troubled, anxious (especially when you are physically and mentally disturbed)") consist of dueat ("boiled"), nuea ("body, flesh"), ron ("heated") and chai ("heart, mind").
 * mu het pet kai (หมูเห็ดเป็ดไก่, "food") consist of mu ("pork"), het ("mushroom"), pet ("duck") and kai ("chicken").
 * roek ngam yam di (ฤกษ์งามยามดี, "good time, good chance, good occasion, etc.") consist of roek ("chance"), ngam ("nice"), yam ("moment") and di ("good").
 * thon rak thon khon (ถอนรากถอนโคน, "extirpate") consist of thon ("remove"), rak ("root"), thon ("remove") and khon ("base").
 * ใน nai – "in, under"
 * ระบอบ rabop – "regime"
 * ประชาธิปไตย prachathipatai – "democracy, democrat, democratic"
 * อัน an – "that, which"
 * มี mi – "have, has"
 * พระมหากษัตริย์ phra maha kasat – "king"
 * พระ phra – The word phra is from Pali vara ("excellent, noble, splendid, etc."). But, in Thai language, it has no meaning (in the sense of the council's name). It is just is placed in front of another word to indicate that the latter word refers to a sacred, respected, honoured or royal thing or person. For example, phra aiyakan (พระอัยการ) just means "law" (aiyakan means "law"), phra thammanun (พระธรรมนูญ) just means "charter" (thammanun means "charter"), and phra rachini (พระราชินี) just means "queen" (rachini means "queen").
 * มหา maha – "great"
 * กษัตริย์ kasat – "shelter, protector, defender"
 * ทรง song – an auxiliary verb indicating that the subject is a royal
 * เป็น pen – "is, am, are"
 * ประมุข pramuk – "head"

Even though the source cited by RJFF transcribes the name of the council as
 * "Khana Patirup Kanpokkhrong Nai Rabop Prachathipatai An Mi Phramahakasat Songpenpramuk",

it would be more grammatically correct if the transcription is
 * "Khana Patirup Kan Pok Khrong Nai Rabop Prachathipatai An Mi Phra Maha Kasat Song Pen Pramuk".

My transcription follows the RTGS. The Announcement of the Office of the Prime Minister on RTGS states that the romanised words must be separated from each other, except when they are persons' names or are compounds. The examples given by the Announcement are:


 * สถาบันไทยคดีศึกษา (Institute of Thai Studies) = Sathaban Thai Khadi Sueksa,
 * หลวงไพเราะเสียงซอ (a person's name) = Luang Phairosiangso (if it is not a person's name, it would be Luang Phairo Siang So).

Anyway, the words kan pok khrong and phra maha kasat could be considered compounds and would then be transcribed as kanpokkhrong and phramahakasat, respectively. As a result, the name of council could also be transcribed as "Khana Patirup Kanpokkhrong Nai Rabop Prachathipatai An Mi Phramahakasat Song Pen Pramuk".

However, song pen pramuk can never be transcribed as songpenpramuk because the phrases are not a compound and consist of three different words in three different categories (song is an auxiliary verb, pen is a verb and pramuk is a noun).

Even though what I have written above can be considered my "original research" as mentioned by RJFF, I would like to argue that the source cited by RJFF does not give a grammatically correct transcription. And, in this respect, we should (and can) correct the transcription. The correction would not reduce the reliability or correctness of this article.

One more thing – I don't find any place on the BBC website, cited by RJFF, stating that "Administrative Reform Group under the Democratic System with the King as the Head of State" is the literal meaning. In fact, this translation is not literal, but has undergone the interpretation of the translator. For example, the word used in the name of the council is just pramuk (ประมุข, "head"), not pramuk haeng rat (ประมุขแห่งรัฐ, "head of state"). If it is literally translated, it would be "head", not "head of state". It is just another unofficial translation of the name of the council and does not need to be mentioned in the lead.

May I invite you to join the discussion, ? Thank you.

--Aristitleism (talk) 15:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I did not know the exact rules on compound/separate spelling. Seems like you are right. --RJFF (talk) 12:15, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Third party source needed
I think the source given is good enough. It is the announcement of the council which states that the council leader or a person appointed by him will exercise the authority which the laws give to the prime minister and the council of ministers, until a prime minister is appointed.

The English translation of the announcement can be found on BBC website (see COMMUNIQUE NO 4) and this translation is okay.

--Aristitleism (talk) 15:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Secondary sources are always preferrable over primary ones, even if the primary sources are statutory provisions. As a general rule, Wikipedia prefers secondary sources. In this case it is not a grave problem, but if anyone knew were to find a secondary source backing this statement, it would be even better. If the tag bothers you, feel free to remove it. --RJFF (talk) 12:21, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

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Article title
Sredina, since there is no other organisation with the exact same name, adding (Thailand) to the title is unnecessary; see WP:PRECISION for the relevant guideline. Unless this is contested, I'll revert the change. --Paul_012 (talk) 08:57, 8 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes it is: Council for National Security (Slovenia)Sredina (talk) 10:11, 8 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing that out. I've another question which would be better suited for Talk:Council for National Security (Slovenia). --Paul_012 (talk) 11:25, 8 September 2018 (UTC)