Talk:Critical Role/Archive 5

Inappropiatness of calling Acaba a 'main cast member'
The individual in question has not been part of the cast for significantly longer than the show has been going on, there aren't even any reliable sources stating that he is a main cast member or that the show 'starred' him. The only two provided sources, given by @Sariel Xilo, are an article from the book 'Roleplaying Games in the Digital Age' and a news article from the Western Courier. The former makes no mention of Acaba being a main cast member and in fact only references him in relation to a controversy he was involved in and the latter is a defunct website that is not a reputable publisher. A quick google search has the site describe itself as a 'independent student newspaper of Western Illinois University,' meaning it is not even a mainstream newspaper. Both sources either fail to mention the information it is meant to cite at all or fail to meet any requirement of being reliable. There is no reason to continuially reference him as a 'main cast member' rather than a guest star, the only notable difference is how he was present for a prolonged time period at the start of the show but that also applies to a guest star in campaign 3, there would be no reason to treat the two as differently. Dubarr18 (talk) 19:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * MOS:TVCAST states "The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. Articles should reflect the entire history of a series, and as such cast members remain on the list even after their departure from the series. Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits, recurring and guest stars will not necessarily be credited in the same order in each episode in which they appear, so their place in the list should be based on the order of credits in the first episode that they appear" (bolded by me). The show itself serves as a source (primary sources are allowed especially for things like cast order). I've also added a CNBC article along with Friedman academic article which discusses his departure (see above comment). Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Firstly it is inappropiate to move a new discussion as a subheading under a seperate discussion, new discussions are kept at bottom of pages. See WP:INDENT.


 * AS well as this this response entirely ignored the actual contents of the message above, the ciatation of the book has already been discussed and dismissed as not being relevant to the claim that Acaba was a main cast member as the book never states as such. The new CNBC article also does likewise fail to identify Acaba as a 'main cast member.' The only relevant part of your response is about how campanies define who is and is not a main cast member, in which cast the company of Critical Role has long since stopped identifying Acaba has a main cast member for years now and instead refers to them as a guest star.


 * As well as this in relation to the show being a priamry source at no stage does the article do so, instead the primary references removed were references to tweets and youtube videos unrelated to the show and were already supplimented with better secondary sources making their inclusion unneeded.Dubarr18 (talk) 19:49, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I got an edit conflict so when I resolved, it moved the section up (also, this is just a continuing discussion of Acaba so makes sense to keep it all together as this periodically comes up). The academic article does discuss him being a main cast member (that's the whole point of the discussion on him leaving the show). The CNBC article literally lists the cast (see source quote) as does the Slate article; is your quibble that the sources don't use the word "main" and instead just say "cast"? Speaking of primary sources, please see the opening credits of Campaign 1 Episode 22 "AraMente to Pyrah" (at 3:57) as an example of Acaba being listed in the main cast. Just because the CR company's present stance is to erase Acaba doesn't mean he wasn't part of the main cast at the time. Also, pinging as an editor who has been previously involved in discussions on Acaba in this article (see above 2019 & 2020 dicussions). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Dubarr18, given Orion's status as a "main cast" member has a pre-existing talk page section; wouldn't WP:SEETALK trump WP:INDENT?
 * Anyway, "main" generally has to be inferred from the of a modifier such as "guest". Orion was never referred to as a guest player by CR until (long?)  he left. Even if the WP:RS start to refer to Orion as a "guest star", MOS:TVCAST favours avoiding WP:RECENTISM. If sources issue corrections to already published works, however, I'd have no issue Orion being moved to the guests section. Little pob (talk) 11:56, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * On reflection "closely related" at WP:INDENT is open to an editor's interpretation. Was genuinely asking, but have answered it myself; thus struck. Apologies to @Dubarr18 if I came across as WP:POINTY. Little pob (talk) 14:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In reviewing the above discussion (Orion Acaba#2020), the SyFy source does refer to Acaba as an original cast member ("longtime Critters will probably be unsurprised to know that controversial moments like original castmember Orion Acaba’s exit are largely glossed over"). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:15, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Per TVCAST, he should be listed. He was a main cast member until his departure and the production evidently treated him as such. We cannot treat him as a guest star because he was not during his run. To repeat as highlighted above, billing is not a function of time spent on the show, but a production matter. The CNBC article lists Orion among the main cast, which is enough to identify him as such. ComicBook also includes Orion as part of the "core cast", in which it indicates that the core cast last changed when he left.
 * Compare Fringe (TV series), which lists Mark Valley as starring even though he was only starring for season one, Once Upon a Time (TV series) does the same for several people who are only in one season of seven or billed starring for only one season, Batwoman (TV series) with Ruby Rose, etc. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  20:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Overwatch 2 Season 5 voice line
Can't find a reliable source at the moment, so airing erring on the side of WP:TRIVIA and WP:SYNTH, but there's a voice line in Overwatch 2's season 5 premium battle pass where Cole Cassidy (voiced by Matt) references "how do you want to do this". Little pob (talk) 22:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Confirmation there is a voice line, but would still be synth to include at the moment. Little pob (talk) 12:37, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Kotaku did a piece, so have added to Critical Role–related products. Little pob (talk) 12:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Character information
List of Critical Role cast members was recently published from draft. On the talk page I noted an intent to add a paragraph or two for each player character from each campaign. @Sariel Xilo suggested adding (some of) the information for the Campaign 1 characters to the article for Campaign 1.

Wanting to avoid forking content; I thought to take a look at a handful of multi-season shows (and any corresponding cast list articles) before replying. They either have character info presented in the main article (example Fringe (TV series)), the season's article (example American Horror Story: Asylum), or have a "list of [show name] characters" article (example List of The Owl House characters).

So the options, as I see are: (Numbered for ease of reference. Feel free to add more, but please use ... markup.)
 * 1) Copy edit (CE) the bulk of character info out of the campaign articles and have at the cast article
 * 2) CE the character info out of the cast list article and have at the relevant campaign article – due to their episode lists, however, the three campaign articles are already long
 * 3) CE the character info out of the cast list article and have at the relevant campaign article split out the episode info to a set of new "List of Critical Role episodes (Campaign X)" articles
 * 4) CE the character info out of the cast list article but move the info to a new List of Critical Role characters article (instead of the respective campaign articles) – which could be split into "List of Critical Role characters (Campaign X)" articles if needed later
 * 5) Rescope, move, and CE the cast list article to List of Critical Role characters. CE the bulk of character info out of the campaign articles
 * 6) List at both cast list and campaign, but give different information (personality, backstory, actions in the campaign etc)

Posting at the parent article is more likely to be seen by more people. Little pob (talk) 12:05, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * My preference is #6; if you compare the page views for List of The Legend of Vox Machina characters & The Legend of Vox Machina, the show article receives way more traffic than the standalone character list article. I think keeping the short character descriptions in the respective campaign articles will be more useful for the reader because people are less likely to click through to a secondary article. The cast list could go more into each actor's development of their characters (I think most have spoken publicly about inspirations & directions they thought they would go) & move away from the in-universe tone. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Will start collecting some interview sources and drop in the refidea list while waiting more voices. Little pob (talk) 13:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Campaign titles
Don't know when they did, but it seems CR have now sub-titled all of the campaigns with the party names on their website (VM, MN, HB). Looking at MOS:SERIESTITLE; it looks like we should be retitling the campaign articles from "Critical Role (campaign x)" → "Critical Role: [Party Name]". Would be nice to discuss as en masse, but the RfC process is not supposed to be used for requested moves. Therefore will start the requested move discussions at each article over the course of today. Little pob (talk) 10:42, 13 December 2023 (UTC)


 * You can still have a discussion on a talk page about a page move, at least I have seen this before. BOZ (talk) 12:53, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The RMD process mentions the template you're referring to. Discussion below (bot should tag the relevant pages). Little pob (talk) 13:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WRT to the comments on the YouTube episode titles in the withdrawn discussion. Apologies, confirmation bias got the better of me on that (i.e. C1 was checked in full, but only "above the fold" for C2, and just the playlist title of C3). Will do better in any relisting that follows the conclusion of the wider discussion highlighted by TenTonParasol: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)
 * Little pob (talk) 22:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 13 December 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

Withdrawn. WP:TVSEASON being referenced as an objection reason, but is itself currently under discussion. Move request withdrawn pending the outcome. Will rework to attempt to address other objections in any relisting. Little pob (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

– (Centralised discussion for the purposes of WP:TITLECON.) Critical Role have gone back and sub-titled the respective campaigns with the name of the party it follows, both on their website and on YouTube. With official outlets using either Critical Role: [Party Name] or Campaign [#]: [Party Name] as the MOS:SERIESTITLEs; the suggestion Critical Role: Campaign [#] [Party Name] was considered, however, WP:CONCISE applies.
 * Critical Role (campaign one) → Critical Role: Vox Machina
 * Critical Role (campaign two) → Critical Role: Mighty Nein
 * Critical Role (campaign three) → Critical Role: Bells Hells

Third-party, reliable sources refer to the campaigns in various ways: examples "first campaign", Vox Machina, "Hells Bells campaign", "campaign two", "Campaign 3". Whilst Campaign [#] does appear regularly in older sources, there have been a move away from a WP:COMMONNAMEs for the campaigns in more recent sources.

Applicable essays: WP:Official names and WP:Recentism.

There was a related discussion in early 2021 that ended with no consensus: Talk:Critical Role/Archive 4 Little pob (talk) 13:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support as nom. Little pob (talk) 13:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Proposal would introduce a more WP:NATURAL form of disambiguation. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:51, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support - avoiding parentheticals is good. Bensci54 (talk) 17:38, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support with the caveat that it should be Critical Role: The Mighty Nein for campaign 2. TheHumanIntersect (talk) 17:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I got so caught up in pointing out the "The" that I accidentally wrote support instead of just commenting. However I also agree with Sariel Xilo's points, and would also add that CR's official YouTube uploads--the primary release of the episodes--still use "Campaign X, Episode Y". Only the earlier episodes on Geek & Sundry's channel have been changed to the "Critical Role: Vox Machina/Mighty Nein" format. TheHumanIntersect (talk) 04:34, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I haven't shifted on this since the last move discussion (Talk:Critical Role (campaign two)). While this is a web series, we've been following the TV style conventions these articles and the other related CR articles (such as List of Critical Role episodes). The current article name structure follows the "Show name (season #)" format (WP:TVSEASON) which makes it clear to the reader that the each campaign article is a sub-article under the umbrella of the Critical Role article & the order of the campaigns (ie. seasons). I think the consistency in numbering the campaigns in the article title is key (WP:CRITERIA - Consistency) & helps differentiate them from the animated show adaptations which use the party name (ie. The Legend of Vox Machina & Draft:Mighty Nein whenever that show drops). While CR might be rebranding how they refer to the campaigns, I don't think the common name has shifted to point where the article titles need to be renamed (pulling quickly from the C3 article, recent sources are still using campaign # as a designator  ). Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:01, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, just noticed that CR is still using campaign # in some places (such as this week's schedule it says "CRITICAL ROLE: CAMPAIGN 3, EPISODE 80" ). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:50, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Rather than a "traditional" TV season; each CR campaign is more akin to a season of an anthology series such as American Horror Story. Or, perhaps, as each separate series of Star Trek (TOS, TNG, etc) than the seasons therein.
 * A compromise for the closer to consider could be a move to Critical Role: Campaign 1 or Critical Role: Campaign 1 and so on. With the italicisation depending on whether "Campaign 1" etc is to be viewed as the title of the series or the official name. Little pob (talk) 16:28, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't really see a reason to move away from the parenthetical format but others might like it as an option if you want to update the proposal (something like Option A as the party name format, Option B as numerical without parenthesis, Option C as no change). Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Note: This proposal has been listed at the following projects: WikiProject Television (naming conventions), WikiProject Podcasting, and WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons. Sariel Xilo (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm ultimately neutral, but just as a note, there is a lengthy (and still open) discussion on whether to move away from the parenthetical naming scheme for television seasons: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television). Does not necessarily affect this especially as the discussion has not yet closed in any direction, but since it season naming has been referenced. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  21:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Because the move discussion is opened on the basis of the episode titles being renamed, I do also, as others have noted above, that only the Geek & Sundry episodes have been renamed to drop the "Campaign #" while Critical Role Productions still refers to them by number, including in the named of their playlists, which remain "Campaign 1: Vox Machina", "Campaign 2: The Mighty Nein", and "Campaign 3: Bells Hells". But, I'm ultimately neutral overall. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  21:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Was not aware of that discussion. Will withdraw this RMD, and look at relisting at a future date pending the outcome. Follow-up comments can be made at the preamble discussion above. Little pob (talk) 21:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Little pob (talk) 13:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.