Talk:Crocodile/Archive 1

Life expectancy??
What is the approximate life expectancy of a crocodile? , 4 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Answer here: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/cbd-faq-q3.htm Jeremy Bright 23:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The average for a saltwater crocodile is 71 years. But they are one of the largest living crocodilians. Gators only reach have the age at 30-40 years on average. There is also a Freshwater crocodile in Steve Irwin's zoo in Australia, it is 115 years old! It is hard to measure their exact age, because they can outlive us.

Csalbertcs A youtuber.

Classification chart
The classification chart here is not quite consistent with the one I'm putting into the crocodylia entry. Needs resolution sometime. In particular, is crocodylinae a family, as stated here, or is it a subfamily of the family crocodylidae? For the URL of my source see the crocodylia entry. Andrewa 01:36 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Danger
Hmmm. The edit following my last one seems designed to again minimise the danger that crocodiles pose. It read "Crocodiles of any species should be treated with the care afforded any wild animal, but will not attack unless provoked." I don't think that's true. I think it may well be true of American crocodiles and alligators, but not of the four species I listed. Earlier this year a tourist was killed by a "saltie" in northern Australia, and her only mistake was to believe the tour guide (since charged with manslaughter) who told her that it was safe to swim. The croc's only reason for attacking was that she represented prey.

I'm very concerned that this should be accurate. Those taken in Australia recently have all been overseas tourists. Some of them may well read Wikipedia. Andrewa 09:35 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Quite right, Andrew. Crocs are seriously dangerous, and all you have to do is be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I removed the offending sentence. Tannin 10:05 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are also instances of unprovoked attacks on humans by alligators. Rivertorch 06:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Woah, I never knew a saltwater crocodile is powerful even at small sizes. What I mean is...just watch the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAQa4zzyU7s A tiger gets injured by an 8ft (thats an estimate) crocodile. Quite interesting. -Csalbertcs A youtuber.

Ok, so why did the woman get in the water in the first place? She must have been really stupid. And the woman getting in the water proviked the croc. 

Identification
Can someone help me? I want to place the following photograph (I got permission) on the page, but I'm not sure if it's a croc or an aligator. Can someone tell me? See Pascal 16:05, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Great photo. Looks like a saltwater crocodile to me, but I wouldn't take that as an expert opinion. If you find out where it was taken, that would probably tell us, as the ranges of the larger species don't overlap very much at all. Andrewa 15:13, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * images preceding and following are clearly African jimfbleak


 * I'm very wary of that word "clearly" ever since some other Wikipedian edited the acoustic bass guitar article to describe my fretless Eston bass as "fretted". The edit summary reads "it clearly has frets". I've been playing this particular instrument for about 20 years and I think I'd have noticed by now if it did (it does have fretlike markers, like many ABGs).


 * So, why do you say this? Andrewa 10:29, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps I need to spell it out: the 156 pictures are someone's holiday snaps including hotel and bus. All the identifiable pictures are of black people, often wearing traditional African dress, or of African animal species like Giraffe, Lion, Hippopotamus or African Elephant. That looks fairly clear to me. jimfbleak


 * Thank you. That's all I was asking you to do. The black people could be Melanesian, which would make the croc a saltie. But the giraffe, lion, hippo and elephant couldn't be, and there are other hints of Africa too, so you're right, it's probably a nile. I still think it would be good to ask the photographer. Andrewa 19:50, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The images were taken in KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa, at the DumaZulu Snake and Crocodile Park (see ). That would probably make it a nile, since AFAIK that's the only one occuring here.

Alligators vs. Crocodiles
Fokelore has it that one can tell alligators and crocodiles apart by their snouts--one is square and the other is tapered. Can someone confirm this, and if so, add it to the page? Well I'm from Australia and from what I've seen (very inexpert opinion, mind you), the alligators you see in Florida etc... have rounder snouts, and look well, less dangerous than the saltwater crocs here. Maybe because they're further away ;-) Almost cute...

I live in Australia and I've never heard of a saltwater crocodile being called an "alligator". They are locally known as "salties". The freshwater variety is called a "freshie".

i think the fokelore is true. also aligaters teeth r inside thier mouth when they shut it as to crocs thier teeth stick out over thier lip. pease out. jaimi'the taitonater'tait


 * (another reader: I have also never heard of them being called alligators in Australia - maybe it is something just for the tourists)


 * Perhaps maybe the 'saltie' and 'freshie' terms are relatively recent terms; it seems that 'alligator' is used in more older references (older than the 60s or so) and the saltie/freshie terms are more recent. I've actually heard more use of alligators in Africa, and of course few older popular sources bothered to distinguish between alligators and caimans in South or Central America. CFLeon 20:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

211.72.233.3 09:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1.Crocodiles have a V shaped snouts, while alligators have U shaped snouts.
 * 2.When a crocodile's mouth is shut, all it's teeth stick out, when an alligator's mouth is closed, only the teeth in it's upper jaw stick out.
 * 3.Crocodiles can tolerate salt better than alligators.
 * 4.Crocodiles are more aggresive than alligators. (Well, most of the time...)

5. Alligators also have a stronger jaw pressure. A crocodile has to weigh 20% more then an alligator to have a stronger bite force. Luckily, a saltwater crocodile is capable of weighing more then 700 pounds more then your average gator. -Csalbertcs A youtuber.

20% more? You mean an Alligator has an equal Bite Force to a Saltwater Crocodile 20% Longer -croc2005 A Youtuber

Size of crocs
I just saw a National Geographic on a huge Nile crocodile called Gustave that made a living as a man-eater in Burundi, Africa. They said it was probably no less than twenty feet and perhaps more. There were shots of it next to hippos and it was virtually as large as them. Are we sure Salties are actually bigger than the largest Nile crocs? What is the documentation for that? I'm wondering if this is analogous to the old tiger/lion and Kodiak/polar bear 'which is really bigger' question.

Most sources I've seen state: Dora Nichov 03:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC) i'v heard aligators have rounded snouts when crocs have pointier snouts --The tiger has many subsspecies and several of them are in general smaller than average lions. In fact most tigers are not larger than average lions and the famous siberian tigers are mainly the heaviest big cats because they have large fat-deposits. Kamtchatkan and kodiak bears are also often larger than average polar bears. Saltwater crocodiles seems to grow more often to very large sizes over 5m than nile crocodiles, but at the same length, nile crocodiles seems to be a bit buklkier.
 * Polar bear > brown/Kodiak/grizzly/whatever bear
 * tiger > lion
 * saltwater crcodile > Nile crocodile

It depends on which way you look at things. The AVERAGE size of lions may be bigger than tigers (same with brown and polar bears and the crocodiles), but the MOST MASSIVE of tigers are larger than lions (same with the others). Dora Nichov 07:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Which crocodiles eat people
I'd dispute the part about which crocodiles eat people; AFAIK there are no known cases of black caiman attacks, but the American Alligator and American Crocodile are known to attack and eat people. Also I believe there may be cases of Orinoco and Siamese crocodiles attacking people. Amygdala


 * The Nile and SaltWater Crocodiles are MAJOR man-eaters throughout most of their range, and the Mugger also is known to eat people occasionally. The Black Caiman is reported to be a man-eater also, although I have never heard any details or a specific instance. In the last few decades the American Alligator has had a couple of high-profile cases of killing people and eating them, but I've never heard of any reliable reports from before the 1950s. The American Crocodile is more problematic; there are reports of man-eating in South America, but I think only a single instance a few years ago of a crocodile even attacking a person in Florida. Other than those, I don't know of any other species with any actual evidence against them; although all (except perhaps the dwarf species) have vague reputations of being man-eaters like any other large carnivore. Complicating the issue is that crocs aren't picky whether they make a meal or find a meal (they will eat dead bodies that they don't kill themselves) and they often swallow heavy objects for ballast (this no doubt explains gharials found with jewelry in their stomachs). Also, realize that even being a real man-eater doesn't mean that every individual animal will do so, it's that there's a high total number of attacks by the species in general. ANY large animal will attack in certain circumstances (cornering them can do it), and crocs are strong, have nasty teeth and powerful jaws, and are rather territorial; which all combine to make them very dangerous to people that piss them off. Especially NEVER get between a female and her nest!!!CFLeon 20:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know of a reliable source for numbers of human victims/attacks? The "kill hundreds every year" figure sounds quite over-estimated. CFLeon 23:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Oviducts
Do all (female) crocodiles have two oviducts, or just certain species? Might be an interesting "factoid" for the article. Kevin Saff 15:04, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I never could understand the term 'factoid'. It MEANS 'like a fact' or 'fact-resembling'; in other words, it's NOT TRUE!!! But the claim is that they ARE true. Someone didn't know their Latin! Probably thought it was a dimunitive, 'a little fact'. CFLeon 20:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Flying crocs
Can we get more information about crocodiles getting wings and being able to fly in the migratory season? I've never seen a winged or flying croc. Maybe a picture would be nice.
 * Sounds like a crock of monkey snot to me. Can't see it in the article either. --Kizor 18:14, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe a joke?? I once saw a cartoon with flying crocs or gators (it was a OZ cartoon in the '60s). CFLeon 20:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

dylan suter is dum from jaimi

IS THIS A TOTAL JOKE? Whoever heard of a flying crocodile? Most absurd thing I've ever heard of! Silly! Outrageous! That was a good one! 211.72.233.3 09:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Come on you never heard of them! They live with the backward talking millipeeds and walking kangaroos. Enlil Ninlil 08:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And let's not forget the honest politicians. Rivertorch 18:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure. And the furry naked-mole rats and the mongooses that are scared of snakes. Dora Nichov 00:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Here be dragons. Peter Pan 15:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Growth and lifespan
I remember reading that crocodiles - or at least some species - are frighteningly long-lived, and never stop growing. Can someone confirm or deny? This would fit the article nicely. --Kizor

-In fact the growth of crocodiles nearly completely stuns when the become older.

Who claims what?
The line, "This is why some Americans will claim that alligators, not crocodiles, are the dangerous ones." seems out of place, as the rest of the paragraph references naming inconsistencies in Australia. It seems logical to assume that the naming inconsistencies would cause Australians to refer to 'alligators' as more dangerous than crocodiles. I don't want to make the change, as maybe this is all intentional. It seems slightly awkward though, and could definitely at least use an editorial glance.169.232.78.27 04:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Imperial units
I'd suggest you change them to SI units. Now this article is rather inaccessible to most of the world.
 * This has been done for the "largest crocodiles" section. I don't know how to convert pounds per square inch to SI units, but in that case, it's the proportion that seems to matter more than the measurement. Graham/pianoman87 talk 12:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The best way to do it is to put the metric units in brackets after the Imperial ones. Whenever you do a measurement conversion you introduce some error so the original value should reamain first.  Of course, if you find a source with metric values or if the values were approximate to begin with, then go ahead and put the metric values first.  However, I wouldn't replace the Imperial units with metric ones.  It doesn't hurt to have both. Jimp 07:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Bogus Species?
The List of species includes four that seem to be original, with no attribution for any of them. These are:

1) Sumatran crocodile- Crocodylus sumatrae 2) Indonesian crocodile- C. indonesiae 3) Irwin's crocodile- C. irwinii 4) Australian white crocodile- C. australiae

Googling the names gives no results other than Wikipedia or derived information. And crocodilian.com has no mention of any of the 4, not even as junior synonyms for established species. The only conclusion is that someone has pulled another fast one on Wikipedia and just invented something to be published as fact. CFLeon 02:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks, they have been removed. I think these mythical species have propogated to non-english wikipedias. And why on earth would you name a crocodile species after Steve Irwin? That would have made big news if it was true, especially in Australia. Graham/pianoman87 talk 06:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The only wikipedia editions I know of which contained these species were the Thai wikipedia and the Vietnamese wikipedia. I have removed both of these. Graham/pianoman87 talk 13:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Add to that the Latin wikipedia and the Spanish wikipedia. I have removed those. This google search doesn't indicate any more instances of the bogus species. Graham/pianoman87 talk 10:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've also removed the bogus species from es:Crocodylus. I don't know what the difference is between that article and es:Crocodylidae, but they both originally had the inaccuracy. Graham talk 13:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)



Pictures ali vs croc

 * 1) If the picture of aligator nest is aligators, would that be more relevent in the aligator article?
 * 2) Can someone double check that my large croc pic is definitley a croc (photo taken in place outside cairns) - I don't want to make the same mistake :)
 * 3) Likewise to the recently uploaded picture of a croc (from the same place) MartinRe 10:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Why have a picture of an alligator in an article on crocs?  Jimp 07:12, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Doesn't make sense to me either. dewet|&trade; 10:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Saboteur
I'm just a user and I don't feel that it's my place to edit this entry, but FYI someone's put this: "none of this information is true because anyone can type anything they want to on this website." at the end of the taxonomy section.

Also, on 12/4/7 I (different person than person above) removed "and they kick ass" from a description of the crocodiles. I am guessing crocs are somebody's favorite animal...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.49.252 (talk) 21:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem on American Crocodile
I don't know the procedure here- but at the linked entry for American Crocodile, there's someone who insists without reference that C. acutus is the only species in the Americas and deletes ANY AND ALL information to the contrary. I never even heard there was a controversy and crocodilian.com has no mention either... (Only an idea: Could this be the same poster who put up the bogus species here some time ago?) CFLeon 21:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Just keep on discussing the issue with Jimfbleak on The American crocodile discussion page. Directly editing the article would also make your case stronger; especially adding reliable sources might convince him to change his mind. When editing the main article, also provide a helpful edit summary, especially when making major edits. Summarise these major edits on the talk page, maybe putting in the edit summary "see talk" or similar. I'm sorry I can't help more, but I don't know much about crocodiles and their subspecies - maybe both of you are partially right on the issue, I don't know.

I don't think this is a good thing, but many wikipedians judge a user's worth on the project by whether or not they have a user page. It doesn't have to be much; perhaps just a listing of your interests, quallifications, hobbies ETC. Also, try editing actual articles; Be bold in updating pages is one of the key guidelines around here. Don't worry too much if the formatting isn't good; someone will usually fix formatting mistakes sooner or later - see eventualism. I sometimes feel awful being bold, but in my experience a surprising number of articles are unwatched, and requests on talk pages sometimes take a while to be granted. Therefore, it's better to edit articles yourself if you can - just talk about any major edits on discussion pages, as you already do.

The user who added the bogus species is 211.29.234.85. That user also added inaccurate information to several other articles like tree kangaroo and Tom Jones (singer), most of which was not cleaned up until I found it bnearly five months later. I think that reflects very badly on the accuracy of wikipedia. The contributions list is interesting to look at though. -- Graham talk 11:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

More Taxonomy
I've edited the taxonomy section a bit- added some alternative names (I've heard the Mugger called the Indian Crocodile quite a bit, but NEVER the Persian Crocodile except at an Iranian zoo site) and mentioned the Dwarf Crocodile controversy. I'm relatively new in editing actual pages, so if I've screwed up in form, please correct. (I stand by the actual content, however.)CFLeon 03:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

New Taxonomy-related papers
Two papers just came out with implications for crocodile taxonomy. At the very least, maybe they should be mentioned in the text.
 * McAliley LR, Willis RE, Ray DA, White PS, Brochu CA, Densmore LD 3rd (2006). "Are crocodiles really monophyletic?--Evidence for subdivisions from sequence and morphological data." Mol Phylogenet Evol. 39(1):16-32.
 * The authors use molecular studied of croc relationships, and find that the African slender snouted crocodile Crocodylus cataphractus is more basal than Crocodylus or Osteolaemus (dwarf crocodile). Therefore, it belongs in its own genus, and they use the previously erected generic name Mecistops.


 * Janke A, Gullberg A, Hughes S, Aggarwal RK, Arnason U. (2005). "Mitogenomic analyses place the gharial (Gavialis gangeticus) on the crocodile tree and provide pre-K/T divergence times for most crocodilians." J Mol Evol. 61(5):620-6.
 * Similar genetic evidence shows gharials to actually be close relatives of "false" gharials, in a sister group to other members of Crocodylidae. They abandon Gavialidae and place gharials and false gharials in a more inclusive Crocodylidae (I assume based on the phylogenetic definition of that family). IIRC, if this is used, gharials and false gharials could still [b]e included in groups called Tomistominae and Gavialinae within Crocodylidae.Dinoguy2 18:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I've reverted the recent changes to the classification section. While the new information should certainly be mentioned, you have gone TOO far by editing the article to reflect the "suggestions" based on a single study. Just because one researcher/team "suggests" such realignments doesn't make it generally accepted. The new reports are just one opinion and if we start changing information based on a single study, anyone can claim ANY change (such as the two problems mentioned above). It would really help if a second study backs up the first or a second authority agrees. Is there a recognized world authority for Herpetology, like the IAU for astronomy? If so, then wait until they pass their judgement on the new studies or a second team backs up the first. This is how Science works. Remember, DNA and immuniological studies have given conflicting reports about the relationship of the Tomistoma (False Gharial); some studies indicating that it's closer to the Crocodylidae and others that it's closer to the Gavialidae. My point is don't go rearranging information based on one recent report. CFLeon 21:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * On another topic, I think your fix-up of the layout looks pretty good, Dinoguy. I would quibble a bit about the ordering of some of the subgroups (I think Classification is more important that a relative trivial discussion about Size, for instance), but it looks better than it was. CFLeon 21:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My mistake, when nobody replied to this I pretty much assumed the changes could be used in the article without objection.Dinoguy2 22:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

lack of references to extinct species of crocodiles
A quick suggestion: many people who make inquiry into this subject want the access to information on ALL species of crocodile, not just those species presently alive. In view of this I recommend AT LEAST adding some links to articles on extinct species already included in Wikipedia (e.g., Wikipedia's article on sarcosuchus).
 * Links to Sarcosuchus can be found in the more broad entry Crocodilia. Sarcosuchus should not be included on this page as it only covers the family Crocodylidae, while Sarcosuchus is a member of a completely different suborder, Mesosuchia.Dinoguy2 13:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Crocodile embryos
I think this should be included in trivia, what do you think ?

Croc. embryos do not have sex chromosomes, and sex is not determined genetically. Rather, sex is determined by temperature - mostly males are produced at around 31.6 degrees C, with more females produced at slightly lower and higher temperatures. Mean incubation period is around 80 days, and is dependent upon temperature.

Source : http://www.kingsnake.com/oz/crocs/porosus.htm and several other sites.

true thats very important to mention. 72.27.194.125 (talk) 19:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Rename
Article should be renamed to "Croc" as that is now the official word for a crocodile. In memory Steve. --80.203.92.240 06:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation? I never heard that one before! Dora Nichov 00:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Crocodile disease
If someone wants to integrate this information into the article it would be interesting I think. Ans e ll 07:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Other links:

Reproduction
The article would benefit from a passage on reproductive behavior. What's the courtship procedure? Where do the eggs go? Are the young nurtured? That sort of thing. TheMadBaron 10:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It varies from species to species. Nile Crocodiles nurture their young well in comparison to other reptiles. The Nile Crocs lay their eggs in some sort of dirt mound. --24.22.212.250 19:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Popular Culture
I think there should be a section on Crocodiles/Crocodilians in Popular Culture. Any thoughts? --24.22.212.250 19:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Evolutionary history
I've heard that crocodiles are some of the oldest species still alive today (resistance to evolutionary change). I'd be interested if anyone could add information about their fossil record, or possibly how they have changed since earlier geologic periods. 128.195.18.170 23:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Crocodiles as a family, yes, have been around for quite some time. However, Specific species of crocodiles are relatively recent. And the family has changed; just so little that humans can't see it. But I see your point. They're 'old', sure, but compared to cockroaches, corals, scorpions, sphenodonts, etc, they're new guys on the block.--24.22.212.250 01:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Habitat?
This article seems to lack information on crocodiles's habitat.

Wetlands. Isn't that rather basic information? (I'm sorry if I offend you with that phrase). Dora Nichov 09:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

What are welters?
Article says "All large crocodiles also have sharp welters and powerful claws.", but I can't find anything on Wikipedia that defines what the term means. Definition or link to appropriate article, anyone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.25.203.200 (talk) 18:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC). as far as i know welters are like a big jumble with no order. could it mean jumbles of teeth perhaps?

Bite me
How many teeth have they got? More or fewer than gators? Marlin Perkins 05:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Um. . . I think the amount of teeth actually varies because they always have some falling out and growing back- but the amount they'd have if all the sockets were full, you will have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me. ````oddball 2002

64-68 teeth of a mature saltie. -Csalbertcs A youtuber.

They could regrow their teeth, but when they reach over 50 years of age it doesn't regrow. -Croc2005

Size
The current size section is fairly disorganized and not terribly clearly sourced. I'm going to remove the recent addition of "In January of 2007 a huge 7 meter Estuarine (Saltwater) Crocodile was shot and killed in Papua New Guinea after reportedly killing several locals- http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21064163-5006003,00.html" for a few reasons. 1) From the rest of the size section, it doesn't appear to be a record-breaking saltwater crocodile. 2)  The source says only one person was killed, the article text says "several". 3) When adding citations, please use the conventions at How to cite sources, and specifically use the format currently used in the article; in this case, please use footnotes.  If another source, with a more precise length measure, can be found, and the section organized, I think this might be a GREAT addition to the article.   However, as it stands, I'm reverting the change. Enuja 20:00, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I spend a lot of time photographing the Saltwater crocodiles of Australia.....and none of these sizes are over-exaggerations. Much of the information in question on this page can be easily verified. First off......there is a CONFIRMED 23 foot living crocodile in Orissa, India and there was recently a 22 foot crocodile killed in New Guinea. The largest OFFICIAL crocodile ever measured was on the Norman River in Queensland...it measured 28 feet in length and a cast was made (and is still on display). The only crocodillians that are capable of killing a man are the Saltwater crocodile, the Nile crocodile, the American crocodile, the Black caiman, the American Alligator and quite possibly the Mugger crocodile.....no more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.239.243.21 (talk • contribs)
 * Hi! Please sign your posts on talk pages (do so simply by typing four tildles ~ ).  I wasn't questioning that the crocodile killed in Papua New Guinea was about 7 meters; it's just that the other record crocodiles are slightly longer than 7 meters, so I didn't see how the length of a 7 meter crocodile was worth mention in the "size" section.  Also, my biggest problem with the Size section is the organization.  If you know sources for the largest crocodiles, or are interested in looking them up, by all means re-organize the section.  Please don't just add facts to the end of it, though; craft a section that is clear, organized, and communicates the size of crocodiles.  Enuja 04:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No evidence of lengths over 7 metres, much less 8
You can find scientific information on the subject in this article at Here be Dragons, the blog newsletter of the Madras Crocodile Bank Trust.

This is what they had to say about two popular claims:

"Back in India there are current stories of 23 footers in Bhitarkanika National Park in the Indian state of Orissa. In fact, someone is such a convincing story teller that the Guinness Book of Records proclaims that this is where the largest croc in the world lives. It could be true, we hope it is, but we need evidence and not another tale of ‘it was bigger than the boat’. Hopefully Guinness does more rigorous verification with their other stories." Indeed, no verification whatsoever has been presented in the reports I've seen for this individual. As for Guinness: they've also accpted the height of Leonid Stadnyk (although not anymore), the ages of Shigechiyo Izumi and Cheeta as well as the BBC claim for a 25-metre Liopleurodon.

"The oft quoted 28 footer killed back in July 1957 by the Pawlowskis in the Norman River Estuary of the Gulf of Carpentaria remains just an unverified anecdote, no matter how many publications the story appears in." And this was just plain ludicrous to begin with, as are all 8+ metre claims.

Note that the largest known Saltwater crocodile skull measured 76 cm (30 in), and even with a generous 1:9 ratio the total length still comes up short of 7 metres at 6.86 m (22½ ft). Interesting to see that the maximum size of the False gharial may have been underestimated in most of zoological literature.

It should also be noted that according to Webb & Manolis (1989) male Crocodylus porosus rarely exceeds 5.2 m (17 ft) in length and 500 kg (1,100 lb) in weight: with identical proportions the longest verified specimen (6.2 m/20 ft 4 in) would weigh 848 kg (1,868 lb), nearly 70 % above the "exceedingly rare" limit – in fact it was likely considerably heavier, as when a crocodile's growth in length slows down it tends to keep increasing in bulk. In other words: the originators and the supporters of the highest claims appear to have had no real concept of how large crocodiles with such measurements would actually be.

The heaviest reported weights I've seen for wild C. porosus were specimens of 1,088 kg (2,399 lb) and 1,035 kg (2,282 lb) with respective lengths of 6.00 m (19 ft 8 in) and 6.15 m (20 ft 2 in) from Australia; unfortunately I've failed to relocate the source, and the figures may or may not be valid. The former was possibly the owner of the 64.4 cm skull in the table, at least, I think that was its location.

--Anshelm &#39;77 (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Differentiation with Alligators
I was alerted to this section by another poster's questions about it that were posted on Talk:Crocodilia. Does this section really belong here, in crocodile? I think that this subject would be better covered in the Crocodilia article. On to the text.
 * While often confused with each other, alligators and crocodiles belong to two quite separate taxonomic families, and are as distinct from one another as humans are from gorillas. As for appearance, one generally reliable rule is that alligators have U-shaped heads, while crocodiles are V-shaped - which can be remembered by noting that "A" in alligator comes before "C" in crocodile, and "U" comes before "V".

I don't think the human and gorillia comparasion is particularly useful. The memory device reads a bit like a how-to to me, but I could see how others might like it. This section is really short at the moment, and I'd obviously like to move it before it is expanded. One good place to learn more is the Crocodilian Biology Database's FAQ about croc vs. gators. Enuja 04:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Gorillas and humans are in the same SUBFAMILY. Crocodiles and Alligators are different families.Eriorguez 00:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this should be a separate article entirely which could then be linked from the top of both Alligator and Crocodile up with the disambiguations. I'll do it if a few people agree. Mfield (talk) 21:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Crocogator
Is it possible to crossbreed a crocodile and alligator to produce a crocogator —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.77.202.131 (talk) 16:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Translation into Chinese Wikipedia
The version 12:22, 8 November 2007 DumbBOT of this article was translated into Chinese Wikipedia.--Philopp 15:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

GUSTAVE
What about GUSTAVE isnt he like the biggest croc in the world {20m}. 72.27.194.125 (talk) 19:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Sleep
Does anyone know why crocs sleep with their mouth open? so they can catch flies — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 14:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Location of differentiation between crocs and gators
The split and merge templates on the difference between crocs and gators on Alligator and Crocodile now both point here. Personally, I think that the difference between the two should be in Crocodilia, not in either of the sub-pages. - Enuja (talk) 03:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think Crocodilia is a great spot for this section. StevePrutz (talk) 04:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree and per what I wrote in the section, I'll do the (small amount of) work of moving it if some people agree. Either into a separate article, or into Crocodilia. Mfield (talk) 00:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

If anyone can find a free close-up photo of a croc's snout and exposed fourth tooth, it would add a lot to the proposed section about differentiation. StevePrutz (talk) 05:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll have a look and see if I have a croc image that fits this and if I have I'll upload it to Commons. Mfield (talk) 00:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Young crocodile displaying fourth tooth.jpg|50px]] How about this? It's the most illustrative I could come up with and upload from my archive. I added a section with a citation about it to the Crocodile and Alligator articles in the differentiation sections. I am still up for merging these sections into a section in Crocodilia, that seems to make more sense than keeping two parallel sets of identical information. Mfield (talk) 22:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kudos to you, Mfield! StevePrutz (talk) 10:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Merging is a good idea and putting the merged content on Crocodilia is a good idea too. Please also develop pairs of comparison photos or illustrations so readers who are not already familiar with these differences can see the differences. --Una Smith (talk) 23:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is done, I have merged this section and the one from the Alligator article out into Crocodilia to keep all the information in one place and not maintain two parallel sections. I have added a link from the top of both articles to this section disambiguation style so it is still easy to find from both independent articles. Mfield (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Crocodile respiration
Crocodiles do not have diaphragms. They have what is known as a diaphragmaticus. Its function is similar to that of a diaphragm (which is only found in mammals), although it rather differently. It is attached on one end to the pelvic girdle (pelvis) and to the liver on the other. When it contracts, the diaphragmaticus pulls the liver towards the tail, allowing the lungs to expand. This is in contrast to the diaphragm of mammals, which is situated between the lungs and the viscera and functions by pushing the liver and intestines down. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/uou-har_1030708.php from the University of Utah http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080313124451.htm www.nature.com/nature/journal/ v434/n7035/full/434833a.html from University of California, Irvine http://www.answers.com/topic/crocodilians-crocodiles-alligators-caimans-and-gharials from Answers.com It has the same basic function as a diaphragm (to aid in breathing), but is morphologically different. Basically, diaphragmaticus =/= diaphragm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.206.81 (talk) 07:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added a citation to the article which I hope clears this up. Cheers, Mark t young (talk) 08:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't it make sense to put all of the shared physiology of crocodilians on Crocodilia instead of sub-pages, including this one? Colleen Farmer's work is on American Alligators, not on any species of crocodile.  Also, for describing what the diaphragmaticus does with breathing, older work about walking and breathing seems more relevant.  - Enuja (talk) 19:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Enuja. This diaphragmaticus information works best at Crocodilia. StevePrutz (talk) 19:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right, it would work better at Crocodilia. Mark t young (talk) 19:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just edited the relevant paragraph in that section. Leaving a note here for interested parties who don't have both pages watched.  - Enuja (talk) 21:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Geographical range
I came here looking for geographical info on crocodiles. Could someone please add a description of native and introduced wild crocodile geography? --Loqi (talk) 20:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Trimmed see also section
The see also section was rather long. Per WP:See also I've removed every link that is already made in the article. In particular, I don't see any reason to link to any particular species of crocodile there as we already have a list of crocodiles with appropriate links in the article. As there are many, we would need a good reason to link to only specific ones anyway. The Nile crocodile is I believe one of the most common, but that's already mentioned in the article (that why I believe it's the case) and that's the way it should be handled so the reader understands why it's of relevance. The article also discusses and links to Nile crocodile in several other instances, as would be natural if they are quite common. I've also removed Steve Irwin from the list. I'm personally not entirely sure whether it's of sufficient relevance at all, but in any case I see no reason to link both Crocodile Hunter and Steve Irwin in the article. IMHO the article on the show is of greater relevance so I've left that in. Nil Einne (talk) 11:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Add the article in albanian Krokodili
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.82 (talk • contribs)
 * Done. Firsfron of Ronchester  13:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Excessive use of nouns.

 * In the Biology and Behavior section, the word "crocodile" is used at the beginning of every line. Excessive eh? --202.156.14.251 (talk) 01:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You are free to copy-edit the article. Rodhull  andemu  01:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If the existing text states the meaning adequately, leave it alone. There is no point making the text hard to understand by "varying the expression" for its own sale. See Elegant variation for one tendency to avoid. Wikipedia is made of articles and is not the place for "best essay style". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Issues and conflicting passages
In reading this section, I noticed a few issues and sections that seemed to have conflicting language.

1) Is crocodile, as opposed to crocodilian(s), really a common term for the general Order? I admit, my specialty is somewhat limited, having worked primarily with alligator mississipppiensis, but I had not previous heard the word "crocodile" used for anything except actual members of crocodylidae, whereas alligatoridae are (at least in my anecdotal experience and brief web search) referred to as crocodilians, not crocodiles. This wiki entry would seem to assert otherwise in some places, and then contradict itself in others.

In the lead, "The term can also be used more loosely to include all extant members of the order Crocodilia: i.e. the true crocodiles, the alligators and caimans (family Alligatoridae) and the gharials (family Gavialidae), as well as the Crocodylomorpha which includes prehistoric crocodile relatives and ancestors."

As opposed to the text from description, which states "Crocodiles are similar to alligators and caiman; for their common biology and differences between them, see Crocodilia."

As the rest of this article referes specifically to crocodylidae, I'd recommend removing the line from the lead about referring to the whole order, unless someone can cite a good reference for that. Or at least reword it to refer to crocodilian, not crocodile, as the general term.

2) rewrite needed - The section on Biology and Behavior could use some formal grammar editing, and a check on some of the references. In particular, the last paragraph,

"It is reported[15] that when the Nile crocodile has lurked a long time underwater to catch prey, and thus has built up a big oxygen debt, when it has caught and eaten that prey, it closes its right aortic arch and uses its left aortic arch to flush blood loaded with carbon dioxide from its muscles directly to its stomach; the resulting excess acidity in its blood supply makes it much easier for the stomach lining to secrete very much stomach acid to quickly dissolve bulks of swallowed prey flesh and bone."

3) Under size, there are two conflicting paragraphs:

"The largest crocodile ever held in captivity is an Estuarine–Siamese hybrid named Yai (Thai: ใหญ่, meaning big) (born 10 June 1972) at the famous Samutprakarn Crocodile Farm and Zoo, Thailand. This animal measures 6 m (19.69 ft) (19 ft 8 in) in length and weighs 1114.27 kg."

"The largest captive crocodile alive in the US is located in South Carolina. In June 2002, Alligator Adventure introduced Utan. At 20 feet (6.1 m) long and weighing in at more than a ton, "Utan", the largest crocodile to ever be exhibited in the United States, made his new home in Myrtle Beach.[16]"

4) throughout the article, crocodilian and crocodile are used as meaning the same thing, and this is not the case. (see the size section, in which it states "Bearing these inaccuracies in mind, the oldest crocodilians appear to be the largest species.,,", it is unclear if they are talking abotu the oldest crocodile, or the oldest crocodilian species. In any case, what is probably meant is either most long-lived, on average, or oldest individual. The two are not the same measure.)

5) danger to humans section - can someone cite the Japanese soldier story? if not this needs to go, as it's hearsay to begin with, and has no source. Ditto for the information provided in the crocodile products section.

6) there needs to be a link to crocodilian.

I'll let a croc expert take a whack at this, if you have a care to otherwise, I'll check back in on it. Jbower47 (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Bite force 2
CAN SOMEONE LOOK AT THE FORCE OF BITE FOR A LARGE GREAT WHITE SHARK REFERENCED HERE COMPARED TO ON THE GREAT WHITE SHARK PAGE? IT'S DIFFERENT!!!66.192.23.85 (talk) 19:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

"Crocodiles are very fast over short distances, even out of water."
The article state that "Crocodiles are very fast over short distances, even out of water.". All that I can get from this sentence is that crocodiles are not slow, at over "short distances", as one might think. But what does "very fast" mean and what are "short distances". And why "very fast" and not just "fast"? I think it would be great to include some measured speeds or scientific estimates to paint a clearer picture on that topic. --78.54.120.17 (talk) 17:13, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Cladogram
A cladogram of Crocodylinae after Brochu C. A., Njau J., Blumenschine R. J., Densmore L. D. (2010) is tucked away at Rimasuchus. It might appear here too...--Wetman (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Uh, hello?
In my opinion, the classification forgot something important: that crocodiles belong to Archosauria! Could this please be fixed? 70.80.215.121 (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)Adam70.80.215.121 (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that's a pretty significant fact. Abyssal (talk) 00:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction
The infobox says "Temproral range: late cretaceous - recent" and the last part of the lede says "They are believed to be 200 million years old". So which is it? - file lake  shoe  23:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually since this article is about crocodilids in particular and not crocodyloida (dating to the Late Cretaceous) or pan-crocodilians (dating to 200 ma or more), the oldest known crocodile (as opposed to alligator or something else) dates only to the eocene. Not exactly the living fossils people like to believe. Have updated this with refs. MMartyniuk (talk) 13:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The age of a crocodile
The article states that:

"The most common method is to measure lamellar growth rings in bones and teeth—each ring corresponds to a change in growth rate which typically occurs once a year between dry and wet seasons.[19]"

then goes on immediately to say:

"Bearing these inaccuracies in mind, the oldest crocodilians appear to be the largest species."

To which inaccuracies does this sentence refer? I think some description of the difficulties inherent in estimating age from growth rings should be given or at least cited. If I knew what they were I'd change the article myself but unfortunately I, like Sergeant Schultz, know nothing. Furthermore, the use of the term "crocodilian" suggests that the sentence is referring to the age of the order crocodylia rather than the age of particular crocodiles. Perhaps this word could be changed to simply "crocodiles." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.5.32.113 (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Discrepancy in largest crocodile records
Currently the article reads:

'''The largest crocodile ever held in captivity is an Estuarine–Siamese hybrid named Yai (Thai: ใหญ่, meaning big) (born 10 June 1972) at the famous Samutprakarn Crocodile Farm and Zoo, Thailand. This animal measures 6 m (19.69 ft) (19 ft 8 in) in length and weighs 1114.27 kg. The largest captive crocodile alive in the US is located in South Carolina. In June 2002, Alligator Adventure introduced Utan, born in 1964 in Thailand.[17] At 20 feet (6.1 m) long and weighing in at more than a ton, "Utan", the largest crocodile to ever be exhibited in the United States, made his new home in Myrtle Beach.[18]'''

This would mean the crocodile in captivity in South Carolina is larger than the largest ever held in captivity...Ordinary Person (talk) 02:35, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

What color is a crocodile?
It (the color) is not mentioned anywhere! They look green, but their sides are grey and their bellies are yellow? White? Light Green? What's right? What's an albino look like? Oh, and apparently certain things can change the color of their skin: Crocodile Turns Bright Orange Does this happen often? 146.115.167.120 (talk) 22:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)Kat in Massachusetts so I can't exactly check.

Bite force
No bite force is provided. P/Square Inch and Standard Atmospheres are units of pressure, not force. It may sound like a technicality, but it's not. Avianmosquito (talk) 09:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, plus there's the effect of bite location - the muscle can generate a given force about the joint (therefore a given torque), and therefore position in the jaw matters a great deal (hence why we have molars at the back - large force for crushing). Unfortunately, I cannot find any peer-review papers on crocodile bite force (I get 13,000 N from a Ken Vliet paper on alligators). I heard a talk recently by someone who does have this data (forces at two points in the jaw) for a wide variety of species, but the paper isn't published yet. Mokele (talk) 18:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Why does it say in regards to crocodiles bite force " These jaws can bite down with immense force, by far the strongest bite of any animal. The pressure of the crocodile's bite is more than 5,000 pounds per square inch (30,000 kPa)"

When it also says on the Tasmanian Devil wikipedia page "An analysis of mammalian bite force relative to body size shows that the devil has the strongest bite of any living mammal, over 5,100 psi (35,000 kPa)"? (unsigned)


 * You're right, the Tasmanian devil force is completely wrong and flatly contradicted by the reference they cite for it. Mokele (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe the discrepancy would be due to the qualifier "of any living mammal" in the Tasmanian Devil quote. Dinferno (talk) 13:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Please change the pounds per inch to lbs of force for all of those bite forces. The 5000 figure comes from Brady Barr testing a Nile Croc's bite force with a load cell. Just so we're clear again, as stated before, pounds per square inch (PSI), is not the the same as lbs of force. The former has to do with force over area, which is pressure, the latter is just plain force. DinoJones (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Largest Crocodile- There is no evidence to suggest that the largest saltwater crocodile was indeed 28 feet long. There is only a replica of it and just one story to back it up which I kinda doubt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.100.52 (talk) 13:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Question about skulls
I was examining a skull of a caiman at the museum and noticed that it is the only skull I saw with the surface covered in dimples. I was told that these dimples act like suction cups to help hold the skin in place on the head. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rocket1962 (talk • contribs) 19:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Kind of. The dimpling is seen in lots of reptiles where the skin adheres tightly to the underlying bone, but it's not really "like a suction cup".  I'm not aware of the specific reason off the top of my head, but my bet would be something to do with increased surface area for firmer attachment. HCA (talk) 21:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 April 2012
Hello. I would like to request that the common English name associated with Crocodylus suchus be changed from Desert crocodile to West African crocodile. Desert crocodile is an incredibly inaccurate name as this species is in no way limited to any desert ecosystem and is not in common usage anywhere within the crocodile, conservation, or African herpetology communities. We are still looking for the most appropriate common name, but for now West African crocodile seems to be the most appropriate. Thanks! Matt Shirley

Mecistops (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)Matt Shirley


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  elektrik SHOOS  (talk) 19:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 April 2012
Schmitz needs to be changed to
 * Crocodylus suchus, Desert Crocodile or Sacred Crocodile (Recent (2011) DNA analysis indicates this is distinct from the eastern population of the Nile Crocodile.)
 * Crocodylus suchus, Desert Crocodile or Sacred Crocodile (Recent (2003) DNA analysis indicates this is distinct from the eastern population of the Nile Crocodile.)

and the source for this is:

Sushaus (talk) 08:53, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 April 2012
Sorry, something went wrong with what I just wrote (first-timer ;-) ) What I meant is that the 2011 source for the resurrection of C. suchus is not correct, but it was actually already in the article by Schmitz et al. (Schmitz, Andreas; Patrick Mausfeld; Evon Hekkala; Tara Shine; Hemmo Nickel; George Amato; Wolfgang Böhme 2003. Molecular evidence for species level divergence in African Nile Crocodiles Crocodylus niloticus (Laurenti, 1786) Comptes Rendus Palevol 2: 703–712.

Thank you for correcting this

Sushaus (talk) 09:00, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's better to remove the incorrect annotation altogether. The details are correctly hashed out in "Desert crocodile". Danger High voltage! 12:51, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request: "Size"
A 22ft, 2500lb crockodile was caught off the coast of the Nile river. Reference link, breaking early records. Gesellman (talk) 20:20, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The photo is a trick, and an old one - place the animal in the foreground and the people/person/scale in the background, using perspective to make it look bigger than it really is. It's a big croc, no doubt, but without an accurate scale in the same plane as the animal, I believe its size as much as I believe Elijah Wood really is 4 feet tall with pointy ears and hairy feet. HCA (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Longest crocodile ever?
I notice that under the 'Size' subheading there is discussion about the largest crocodile held in captivity, named Yai, measuring 19.69ft, held in Thailand. The article then mentions the largest crocodile ever captured alive, Lolong, measuring 20 ft 3 in, and held in the Philippines. I'd like to point out that Lolong is indeed in captivity and therefore holds both titles. This is confirmed on the reference used to verify the Lolong's size, it's also cited on Lolong's wikipedia page. --IkaInk (talk) 05:34, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I have calculated, with the help of software, the length of a crocodile killed in Northen Zimbabwe from a photo I have received, which measures about 24 feet (7.325m), which looks like to longest croc ever. I would be nice to verify this by actually go and measure the wall upon which it laid when the photo was taken.

Contact me at gert.dupreez@babcock.co.za to get the photo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.41.197.98 (talk) 09:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting, and certainly within the range of reports for wild crocodiles. However, to add this information, it needs to have a credible reference and cannot be your original work. (including a synthesis of taking a referenced photo and then applying your software to it to produce a number). Try to find a reference that concurs with you, and is credible. Jbower47 (talk) 17:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Dozens of villagers and experts ensnared a 20.1-foot (6.1-meter) male crocodile along a creek in Bunawan township in Agusan del Sur province after a three-week hunt. It could be one of the largest crocodiles to be captured alive in recent years. About 100 people had to pull the crocodile, which weighs about 2,370 pounds (1,075 kilograms), from the creek to a clearing where a crane lifted it into a truck. http://news.yahoo.com/giant-crocodile-captured-alive-philippines-134625838.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Korn1nut2fan3 (talk • contribs) 15:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll trust that length once an actual scientist measures it. Until then, it's little more than any other "big fish" story. Mokele (talk) 18:04, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems that the measurement of an 'actual politician' can't be trusted. Just in case, once National Geographic representatives have measured the crocodile, can we make a short description of it here? Or maybe, create an article about it if it's allowed. Thanks. PolicarpioM (talk) 05:34, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * If an 'actual politician' told me 2+2=4, I'd be compelled to go back and re-check all of basic math to make sure it wasn't all a lie. At any rate, The NG folks measurements should be fine, if they actually make any (the quality of their programming has been going steadily downhill). If they don't actually measure it (either digitally or physically), no dice. Mokele (talk) 14:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Lol. Nice one there. I'll wait for the actual measurement then by NatGeo. PolicarpioM (talk) 06:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Its too bad NatGeo is delaying in measuring this beast.. whats the hold up anyway? http://globalnation.inquirer.net/13593/guinness-natgeo-delay-visits-with-lolong-the-giant-croc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.83.15.53 (talk) 04:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's always best to take the side of prudence when it came to measurements but it's better to be bold when capturing a big crocodile. PolicarpioM (talk) 06:52, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Mokele and other crocodile experts. The National Geographic team led by Dr. Adam Britton has finally measured Lolong at 20 feet, three inches as reported in GMA News. I've made an edit to include this fact. Please feel free to discuss it here if you think the edit is still unacceptable. Thanks. PolicarpioM (talk) 06:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Can someone remove the statement about "Utan" at the size section? The source used for it actually states that Yai is recognized by Guinness. It says nothing whatsoever about Utan. The only people who state he's 20 feet are his keepers... --145.44.88.109 (talk) 12:14, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey, you're right. I'll delete Utan based on your observation. If other editors don't agree with the deletion, please state your reasons here. I'll delete Utan based on blatant promotion and questionable sources since it's promoting a crocodile tourist attraction based on a claim that is not supported by independent, reliable sources. Also, this is an exceptional claim that points to a reference describing "Yai" instead of "Utan". In short, the citation is misleading as well. PolicarpioM (talk) 05:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Lolong has a lenght of approximately "6.17" metres, not 6.096 like stated in this article. I'm apparantly not able to correct it myself as this article is locked to new users. --24.132.213.61 (talk) 15:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Whoa! If you can link the reliable source here, I'll make an edit. PolicarpioM (talk) 08:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * You can find all the sources you need on Lolong's own page here on wikipedia. 20 feet 3 inches = 6.17 metres. --95.96.192.45 (talk) 01:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there. Not sure if this blog from the Lolong Wikipedia article is really from Dr. Adam Britton. But this news article is a reliable source. The measurement says 20 feet four inches. We can edit the measurement later when the Guinness Book of World Records officially publishes the exact measurement. PolicarpioM (talk) 04:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

That blog is of Adam Britton. Guinness has named him the world's largest at 20 feet 3 inches a few weeks ago. --95.96.192.45 (talk) 23:48, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We now have one reliable source plus Adam Britton's blog. I'll now make the changes in measurement. PolicarpioM (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:53, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's the official page from Guinness to add as a source: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/9000/largest-crocodile-in-captivity

And one from National Geographic: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120702-biggest-crocodile-lolong-guinness-world-records-animals-science/

--95.96.192.45 (talk) 00:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Porosaurus
I am not a specialist in crodilians or cruratarsi. But I saw on an episode of an old series, paleoworld, a mention of a late myocene south american crocodilian named porosaurus that would dwarf even the Jurassic and Cretacic Crocodilomorpha. I can try to attempt a stub and hopefully some expert could take it from there. But since the series is quite old I wonder if that genus is still valid or was either dismissed or found out to be something else. Googling it doesnt bring anything significant. Learningnave (talk) 18:51, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Try Purussaurus. HCA (talk) 11:51, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request: Biology and behavior
Second sentence is vandalism: "It lives in what nourishes it." Lamegeek9000 (talk) 18:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Unit conversions in bite pressure
The real ratio is 1 psi (pound per square inch) equals about 6.9 kPa.

So, the crocodile's 5,000 psi should be 35,000 kPa, hyena's 800 psi 5,600 kPa, and alligator's 2,000 psi 14,000 kPa, when using 7 as factor.

The current factors are: 6, 7.5 and 5, respectively. My suggestions are clearly closer to what they should be. 85.217.20.118 (talk) 01:01, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Distribution map request
I tried to contact the creator of the dist. map of Crocodylidae, but unfortunately such an acct no longer exists.. Since this page is about "true crocodiles" (Crocodylinae) only, the tomistoma should be taken out of the map. could someone good at this, help to edit it? Berkserker (talk) 21:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

References needed
I feel that the section on "species" needs a few inline references, but did not want to spoil the superb work of an editor by placing a tag on it, but I raise the matter here.__DrChrissy (talk) 18:30, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * you read my mind :) Berkserker (talk) 16:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Great work on adding the references! __DrChrissy (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Cladistic nonsense
The article claims that crocodiles are, along with dinosaurs, archosaurs.. while other living reptiles are diapsids.. the article for diapsids says they include crocodilians and at least some dinosaurs. Someone's making stuff up. I suspect it's both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.130.241 (talk) 05:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I fixed it. Diapsida includes all extant reptiles and birds, and is split into two large groups: Archosauria (crocs, birds, dinos, some other extinct mesozoic odds & ends), and Lepidosauria (tuataras, snakes and lizards).  Turtles were formerly thought to be part of an otherwise totally extinct group, the anapsids, that was ancestral to both Diapsids and Synapsids (mammals & their ancestors), but modern work shows they're definitely Diapsids, though it's split on whether they're closer to Archosaurs or Lepidosaurs.  I chose to leave them out entirely rather than delve into it, since it's just an introduction, and would be tangential to the main subject of the article. HCA (talk) 13:46, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Class reptilia?
The taxobox seems careful to avoid listing a class, which ITIS as one example describes as Reptilia, and the article doesn't describe crocodiles as reptiles, which as a layperson I expected in the lede. (Some examples in the Species section are called reptiles). I don't know what taxonomic disputes exist over their classification. Would it be proper to add a class to the taxobox, or call them reptiles, or are those ideas outdated? --Agyle (talk) 23:56, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree totally. The word "tetrapods" in the first sentence could be replaced with "reptiles".__DrChrissy (talk) 23:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Freshy is dead
The 130 year old crocodile named Mr. Freshy is referred to in this article as still living, but according to the link below he has since died: http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/freshie-the-croc-dies-at-age-140/494141/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frisbii (talk • contribs) 21:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated the article with that info. --Agyle (talk) 21:19, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Typo Found
I found a typo

In the Reproduction section, the third sentence from the bottoms reads: Hearing the calls, he female usually excavates the nest and sometimes takes the unhatched eggs in her mouth, slowly rolling the eggs to help the process.

It should say: Hearing the calls, the female usually excavates the nest and sometimes takes the unhatched eggs in her mouth, slowly rolling the eggs to help the process.

Jamastiene (talk) 02:54, 2 April 2014 (UTC)Jamastiene


 * . Thanks. M. Caecilius (talk) 02:57, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2014
Please remove the phrase "n***** pimp," which appears three times, from the scientific classification section of this page. I believe this request is self-explanatory. Thanks.

Nujv (talk) 01:53, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * From what i can tell, that phrase does not appear once in this article. could you be more specific about where you see it? Cannolis (talk) 02:38, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Gavial is missing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharial — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.199.62 (talk) 03:29, 9 May 2014 (UTC)


 * No, the gavial/gharial/ghariyal is covered here, as well as having its own article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:00, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2014
Could someone please change the photo of Crocodylus suchus in the species section (2nd last entry in the box)? We now have several photos of living on commons. Don't care what photo is taken, as long as it is one showing a living specimen instead of the photo of an ancient mummified head. Additionally, please change the English name to West African crocodile, which would follow both the Reptile Database and its own wiki article. Desert crocodile is its secondary name, which strictly speaking only covers a small part of the species (the famous desert living populations; most West African crocs don't live in deserts).

62.107.216.170 (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for the suggestions. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Please do remember the "File:" prefix at the photo. Without this prefix the photo doesn't show. 62.107.216.170 (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Roger. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2015 - fun fact
According to the Guinness Book of Records in 2011, the largest crocodile that has ever been caught alive is called Cassius at 5.48 m (17 ft 11.75 in) long. He is an Australian saltwater crocodile (Crocodylus porosus) and is the largest crocodile currently in captivity. Cassius lives at the Australian wildlife zoo Marineland Melanesia, on Green Island, and is thought to be over 100 years old. He was brought 3,200 km (1.988 miles) by truck all the way from Australia’s Northern Territory to Green Island in 1987.

LowHangingFruits (talk) 20:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Longest Crocodiles listed on page are longer than this. (Came from 2012) -- Orduin  Discuss 23:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2015
Hi! The picture used for Crocodylus/Mecistops cataphractus (the Slender-snouted crocodile) in the species section of this page definitely looks like it's actually of Tomistoma schlegelii. This has been mentioned on both the talk pages for Tomistoma schlegelii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:False_gharial and for Mecistops cataphractus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Slender-snouted_crocodile In this case, could someone please change the picture to one that is of the Slender-snouted crocodile?

The problem seems to be caused by the picture being misnamed File:Crocodylus cataphractus.jpg On this page: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Crocodylus_cataphractus.jpg which shows where the image is used, it can be seen it's being used for both Tomistoma schlegelii (e.g. here: http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tomistoma) and Crocodylus/Mecistops cataphractus on many pages in other languages. I'm not sure what the best way to fix this would be?

90.194.51.182 (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


 * In spite of the similarities, I think it is M. cataphractus, based on the pattern of osteoderms. In particularly, see Figure 9 of this paper: http://www.as.wvu.edu/~dray/Papers/McAliley_et_al_2006_-_Mecistops.pdf  The animal in the photo lacks lateral nuchal scutes, so it's definitely not Crocodylus, but it doesn't seem to have that double-row of 10 scutes in Tomistoma, though admittedly it's a bit hard to see. HCA (talk) 21:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the informative reply! After looking at Figure 9 in the paper and comparing it with the animal in the photo and other photos of Tomistoma and Mecistops, I agree with you.  I'll change the picture on the Tomistoma wikispecies page, referring to this discussion.  On various Wikipedia/Wikimedia pages I can see other people also thought the photo was of Tomistoma!  90.194.51.182 (talk) 21:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2015
Hello! In the See Also section, there is currently the following: Sebek - one of the Great Old Ones in the Cthulhu Mythos Where 'Sebek' is NOT a intra-wiki-link, but 'Great Old Ones' and 'Cthulhu Mythos' are. As it happens, Sebek is an actual Egyptian deity (croc-headed, obviously), from which (apparently) the Cthulu Mythos character is based. He has an existing wiki page as well Sobek It seems to be an odd choice to include the Cthulu reference, but not the actual, historical, real world mythology that inspired said Cthulu reference. In addition, the 1st provided link goes straight to the Cthulhu_Mythos_deities page, which has a long and storied history of quality problems, the most egregious probably being that it still uses a confusing and idiosyncratic reference code system, the key to which was deleted from wiki about half a decade ago. Given that I'm pretty sure you all have this article semi-protected to ensure high quality since it is a 'representative' article used in educational materials and stuff, I would suggest you maybe drop the Cthulu Mythos reference and replace it with a reference to the Egyptian god.
 * Yes check.svg Done -- Sam Sailor Talk! 10:05, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2016
There is a section that says "a rivers". It should be "a river", using singular of "river" instead of plural.

174.0.101.200 (talk) 22:47, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 23:31, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Spelling
Looking at this this article seems to have been written in British English. If there has been no consensus to change it, per WP:RETAIN it should have been left in that dialect. --John (talk) 19:09, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2017 : broken Link
The link of 74. Britton, Adam. Estuarine Crocodile: Crocodylus porosus. Crocodilians: Natural History Conservation: Crocodiles, Caimans, Alligators, Gharials. (http://kingsnake.com/oz/crocs/porosus.htm) is DEAD. I have found a replacement here: http://reptilianzone.com/saltwater-crocodile/

Might want to fix it, thanks. ReptilianZone (talk) 07:34, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Your username suggests that you have created the site and, therefore, you may have a conflict of interest. Luis150902 (talk | contribs) 10:09, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2017
No.74 "Estuarine Crocodile: Crocodylus porosus. Crocodilians: Natural History Conservation: Crocodiles, Caimans, Alligators, Gharials." BROKEN LINK

Found another source of info from here: http://reptilianzone.com/saltwater-crocodile/ 175.137.56.63 (talk) 15:53, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The dead Reference has been replaced - Happysailor  (Talk) 18:25, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2018
{{subst:trim


 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2018
Link Gharial to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharial Teagleman (talk) 02:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: It is already linked in the lead, and links shouldn't be used excessively per this guideline. LittlePuppers (talk) 04:59, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

As food
Whatever happened to the section about crocodiles as food? J I P &#124; Talk 15:43, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Storing food underwater
The issue seems unclear. Here are two conflicting opinions : the rest of the creature’s body will be abandoned crocodiles do tend to store carcasses in mangroves or under the water, the crocodile may store the remains in mangroves or underwater I couldn't find scientific sources. --TGCP (talk) 08:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Bite variables
In the section pertaining to the croc's bite, perhaps it would be of some help if the N was identified as the Newton. Otherwise, it could be mistaken for something like a Natural number.72.174.71.134 (talk) 03:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2021
Skutes: Zig zag grill along a ghirial (alligator) & crocodiles back. 05.05.2021.

49.199.234.47 (talk) 09:14, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (talk) 09:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2021
Skutes: Zig zag grill along a ghirial (alligator) & crocodiles back. 05.05.2021.

Skutes: Zig zag grill along croc & ghirial (alligator) backbone. 49.199.234.47 (talk) 09:17, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Crocodylinae into Crocodile
The author indicated they wanted to merge this content to Crocodile. So I'm formally proposing the merge as we shouldn't be keeping drafts in mainspace. Polyamorph (talk) 10:40, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Who wanted to merge Crocodylinae with Crocodile? They should not be merged. The Crocodile page has been merged with Crocodylidae. Crocodylinae is a sub family within Crocodylidae, it contains a separate grouping of species, and should remain a separate page. Cougroyalty (talk) 14:42, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2021
Please change an image caption from

Statue of Sobek from the mortuary temple of Amenemhat III. circa 1810 BC.

to

Statue of Sobek from the mortuary temple of Amenemhat III, circa 1810 BC.

"circa 1810 BC" isn't a complete sentence. 69.174.156.186 (talk) 15:32, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

✅ Also added the "circa" template. PianoDan (talk) 19:22, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

The Surabaya Shark and Crocodile
What the hell is this crap doing here? Tysto (talk) 14:11, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that crap is fine. HiLo48 (talk) 05:18, 2 August 2022 (UTC)