Talk:DC Extended Universe/Archive 7

Page retool
As I discussed with above, I think we need to retool this page to reflect the fact that WB is abandoning the shared universe approach. I feel like this will end our endless squabbles about The Batman, New Gods, Blackhawk, and the like, since it will allow us to better handle WB's approach.

Here's what I propose: The only thing I don't know what we should do about is the name. Something like "Warner Bros.' DC Comics films"? JOE BRO  64  22:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * A Shared universe section, which has covers the DCEU, from Man of Steel to Birds of Prey (I'm saying that instead of Shazam! since it's being released in less than a month).
 * A Standalone films section, which discusses Joker and WB's plans to deviate from the shared universe approach.
 * A Future section, which discusses upcoming films with release dates. Since we're in disagreement over how to classify movies like The Batman, this will help rectify that issue by not explicitly placing them in either the shared universe or standalone sections.
 * The other standard sections, like box office and reception.


 * Support to reflect DC Films instead of written with the mentality of a shared cinematic universe. WB has stated that they are focusing more on franchises than universes moving forward, and it seems pretty evident that DCEU is being phased out:
 * The Batman started off as a DCEU prequel, and now seems to be no longer connected.
 * The Suicide Squad started off as a sequel to Suicide Squad, and now it's being called a "total reboot" by the film's producer ever since James Gunn took over (even if it's a soft reboot, since some actors are returning, it may only be very loosely connected to the first film similar to Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, Mad Max: Fury Road, and The Incredible Hulk; it clearly isn't a straight sequel).
 * Henry Cavill has been heavily reported to have been retired from the Superman role by WB, and they are currently having discussions with various directors to reboot his franchise to make him "relevant" to modern audiences. Neil Gaiman even protested this by saying "Don't make him relevant, make him inspiring" on his Twitter.
 * Most of the DCEU films have been cancelled at this point, and the recently announced upcoming films haven't been specified to be in a universe (New Gods, for example).
 * The Flash movie is adapting Flashpoint.
 * Wonder Woman 1984 has completely distanced itself from the word "sequel", and Birds of Prey is stated to take place in a "parallel timeline" to the DCEU with Harley Quinn serving as an unreliable narrator and Batman missing from Gotham City.
 * Jared Leto is out as the Joker.
 * The reason that Todd Phillips' DC Black label didn't go anywhere is because WB told him that they would make any future standalones under the regular DC line of films.
 * I agree it's time to start writing these articles as DC's film slate, and not a fully connected cinematic universe akin to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Especially when former DCEU franchises may only be ambiguously connected (if at all) moving forward.  Dark  Knight  2149  23:00, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * This page will probably need to be merged with DC Films and make that the primary focus. We also need to remove from the leads of every DC article after Wonder Woman 1984, since any further movies shouldn't framed as "installments" in a singular, clear cut shared universe media franchise.  Dark  Knight  2149  10:21, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I've started a draft at User:TheJoebro64/drafts/DCEU. You're free to help edit it as it's mostly a template now and I'm going to be tied up with The Empire Strikes Back for a while, but I will get around to it ASAP. JOE BRO  64  15:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)


 * OPPOSE extremely. This is the definition of unofficial propositions. A separate article listing all DC-based films, would be justified. However, negating that fact that these are all the same film franchise, is destructive to the article's topic. None of reasonings stated has been from WB. Birds of Prey - alternate timeline is simply due to the fact that Harley Quinn is an "unreliable narrator" as all involved have stated. Meanwhile The Batman - Matt Reeves has confirmed is DCEU (specifically); New Gods - is DCEU (per reliable sources); The Flash including Flashpoint elements (not a good argument to merge this page); and Jared Leto being finished with the Joker --- all terrible arguments. Besides all this Wonder Woman 1984 has simply been compared to James Bond/Indiana Jones installments -- where the previous film doesn't influence the current film, but it is all still one film series. ALSO, Blackhawk has been confirmed to be DCEU. there are no sources that say it's not - as I have stated before.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:05, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Additionally, there are no sources saying that the DCEU is an abandoned franchise. They have simply stated that they will focus on stand-alone features, before eventually coming back to a teamup film (i.e.: Justice League 2). The article as-is is accurate, and valid. If you're wanting a list of all DC Films - you need to make an additional page/article.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * there are no sources saying that the DCEU is an abandoned franchise—,, and . That was just on the first page of a five-second Google search. Your argument is just WP:IDONTLIKEIT and is not backed up by anything. Everything Darkknight said is correct. New Gods and Blackhawk have not been confirmed to be part of a wider franchise, The Batman connection to the DCEU is debatable, the DCEU as it was envisioned just doesn't exist. You realize all the films will still be in this article, right? We need to treat this as DC's film slate, not one sprawling cinematic universe that no longer exists. JOE BRO  64  20:14, 22 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Pinging users involved in previous discussions for further input: . JOE BRO  64  20:17, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * All of this is overkill. The way to do away with this whole argument is to state that the original intention was a model similar to the MCU, while they have now reevaluated to focus on individualized story-telling.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:15, 22 January 2020 (UTC)


 * - each of those sources you provided are not reliable. They are journalistic commentary. They are not from the studio themselves. Likewise, the last source you provided is titled "The DCUE is dead, long live the DCUE" (a riff on the "long live the king" phrase). It simply means one strategy dies, while another is 'born'. --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Likewise, this article simply needs a segment (paragraph maybe?) stating the differences between the original plan for a MCU-esque shared universe, while it is now individualized story-telling. Also - how is The Batman debatable, when the filmmaker has stated that it is DCEU?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:19, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * No, they are. You're just discrediting them because they disprove your argument that "no sources exist that say the DCEU is dead." I'm surprised you think they're unreliable, since I've had to tell you numerous times not to reference sites like GWW, IMDb, WGTC, and CBM. JOE BRO  64  20:21, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * - the times I have included those references is when they are corroborated by reliable sources. The real issue here sounds like "What sources are reliable enough to include information on this article?" Additionally, The Verge, Screen Crush, and Screen Rant are not "the most reliable sources" out there. That's a fact. The articles you connected are Journalism observations. Zero statements from the studio themselves.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:26, 22 January 2020 (UTC) Has Warner Bros. stated that the current film franchise is done? No, so we have no place to state that it is.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:26, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * They never even said it was beginning in the first place. DC never had a clear cut plan like Marvel, and they're not planning an interconnected cinematic universe now. We need to stop acting like they are. JOE BRO  64  20:28, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I have to side with on this one. Not only are a lot of your sources outdated, but there is no evidence for the post-Wonder Woman 1984 upcoming films having "ties" to the earlier films aside from returning actors, and at this point, the DC Extended Universe certainly is not a film franchise onto itself (just a panned shared universe that was originally intended to compete with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, that is now being selectively disregarded by WB in favour of more individual storytelling). The only way to objectively categorise upcoming films without original research is to rewrite the page to reflect DC Films instead of some vague shared universe that will likely be phased out in years to come. DC is now doing standalone films under their regular label, for Christ's sake.  Dark  Knight  2149  20:31, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, the times I have included those references is when they are corroborated by reliable sources is complete bull. If they're corroborated by reliable sources, then why didn't you cite those sources? You know the sources I listed are unreliable; you're just grasping for an excuse. JOE BRO  64  00:01, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose: the DCEU isn’t abandoned. “Wonder Woman 1984” is clearly a sequel, indicating that DC Films and Warner Bros. have no intention of rebooting or abandoning the DCEU.--Dipralb (talk) 23:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Negative. Wonder Woman 1984 began filming years ago and comes out this year. Every post-Wonder Woman 1984 movie and statements from WB indicate the exact opposite, as outlined above. There is no clear cut DCEU anymore, nor does it hold any special notability over DC Films as a whole, considering that the DCEU wasn't successful and WB is focusing more on individual franchises moving forward.  Dark Knight  2149  23:59, 22 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Here is WB stating their plans to focus less on a shared universe model and more on individual films moving forward:
 * https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/toby-emmerich-warners-bros-crazy-rich-year-1176027
 * Here is the producer of The Suicide Squad stating that it is, in fact, a total reboot:
 * "We don’t call it Suicide Squad 2 ‘cause it’s a total reboot, so it’s The Suicide Squad and I think people should be extremely excited about it. It’s everything you would hope from a James Gunn script"
 * Todd Phillips' proposed DC Black line of standalone films was rejected, because WB told him that any future standalones like Joker will be made under the regular DC label:
 * https://deadline.com/video/todd-phillips-joker-career-interview-behind-the-lens/ (he goes into this more in other interviews)
 * WB is looking to reboot Superman to make him "relevant" to modern audiences. They have had discussions with various directors and are even considering Michael B. Jordan for the role:
 * https://variety.com/2019/film/news/dc-comics-superman-michael-b-jordan-green-lantern-aquaman-birds-of-prey-1203415757/
 * Here is confirmation that the upcoming Flash movie is adapting Flashpoint, the comic that rebooted the DC Universe in 2011:
 * https://ew.com/tv/2020/01/15/crisis-on-infinite-earths-marc-guggenheim-earth-prime-ezra-miller-mia/
 * And of course, it's almost a given that The Batman isn't connected to the DCEU at this point. DC Extended Universe has no special notability over DC Films as a whole. Us assuming that upcoming films are in the DCEU is clear cut WP:OR, and we need to restructure the article The Suicide Squad (film) as well. The DCEU also isn't a single franchise with "installments". It's a shared universe.  Dark Knight  2149  00:31, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1
Can each view briefly summarize the pros and cons of retooling the article? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:03, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Why it needs to be retooled in a few points:
 * The DCEU didn't do well, and WB is focusing more on individual franchises instead of following a "shared universe" model moving forward (cited above). Some franchises are also branching off, and Todd Phillips' DC Black line of standalones was rejected because WB told him that any standalone like Joker will be made under the regular DC/WB label. As such, the DCEU holds no special notability above DC Films in general. It's certainly not some massive cohesive media franchise like the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
 * Many upcoming films, such as The Suicide Squad and The Batman are also assumed to be in the DCEU purely on outdated sources and original research. The The Suicide Squad (film) definitely needs to be rewritten, as it claims that it's an "installment" in the DCEU when the producer has explicitly stated that it became a total reboot as soon as James Gunn took over (and there are no sources contradicting this). Retooling this page and merging it with DC Films would solve the issue of WP:OR by having a section that just says "Upcoming films".
 * * also needs to be removed from every post-Wonder Woman 1984 article. The DC Extended Universe is a (basically defunct) shared universe made up of franchises, not a media franchise onto itself. Then you have films that have returning actors, but aren't in the DCEU, like The Suicide Squad. Frankly, there barely even is a DCEU as far as upcoming films are concerned. Just some loosely connected franchises.
 * Restructuring this article is pretty much a necessity, and so far, no one has presented anything substantive as to why it should stay the way it is... inaccurate and not notable as its own topic.  Dark Knight  2149  05:51, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

first of all, Jesus Christ has nothing to do with this article/nor this conversation. I would ask you kindly to not disrespect my Savior. Secondly, you claim that The Batman is "assumed" to be in the DCEU "based on outdated sources". You have no sources stating that the film is not DCEU. Meanwhile, Matt Reeves has confirmed that it is in fact a part of the DCEU. Thirdly, the 'DCEU' isn't even an official title. This was a lengthy discussion in the past. The films all together are a part of the same shared continuity and therefor, the same film franchise. The fact that WB's approach is now different compared to the MCU is not a fair argument (i.e.: WB is not Marvel). Also - give other editors time to respond to your claims. You cannot jump to saying that "so far, no one has presented anything substantative [i think you mean 'substantial'(?)]" if you don't give them time.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * P.S. I'll grab the sources that you claim are outdated. This is a suggestion that needs to bring in 'unbiased' editors. It cannot/will not be done simply by two editors that think a bunch of films are suddenly not a part of this 'DCEU' concept.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Sources for DCEU
 * The following information and sources are reliable sources that acknowledge the film franchise and confirm that the films are within the same franchise. (I will continue adding to this throughout the day... as I work full-time, friend. Cheers guys)--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:23, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The Batman: Collider and Slashfilm (both reliable sources) coraborate the fact that The Batman is DCEU, and that Matt Reeves was in fact stating that the film is DCEU. The references follow -- ref1 ref2 --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:32, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The Suicide Squad: Safran (who is a producer) was clearly speaking out of turn. The fact alone that multiple cast members are returning, confirms it is a follow-up to Suicide Squad. The film simply isn't a direct-sequel. There are such things as 'standalone sequels', and this one is obviously the case. The fact that Safran calls it a "reboot" is confusing, but that doesn't a reboot of the whole DCEU. It's simply the studio's RELAUNCH of the IP.
 * Wonder Woman 1984: Producer Charles Roven stating that it is 'not a sequel' does not mean it is a reboot. He goes on to say "It’s a completely different time frame and you’ll get a sense of what Diana-slash–Wonder Woman had been doing in the intervening years." ...."intervening years" means what happened between Wonder Woman and Batman v Superman/Justice League. Vanity Fair further clarified that it is "chronological", while the writer/director Patty Jenkins continues, stating "It’s a stand-alone film in the same way that Indiana Jones or Bond films are".ref
 * The Flash: Your argument above stated that because the filmmaker has confirmed that there are Flashpoint elements, that this automatically means that it will reboot the entire franchise. This as well is WP:OR. Andy Muschietti word-for-word stated that the project will be a: “different version of Flashpoint than you’re expecting". This alone negates your argument for said film. This interview can be read here (ref) and though That Hashtag Show is not the most reliable (as they often times report on other sources' articles), this one is directly from the filmmaker as an exclusive interview.
 * Man of Steel sequel/follow-up: You stated that Michael B. Jordan is up for the role to replace Henry Cavill. This is not true, and a misquote from speculation and journalists assumptions. The FACTS are that Jordan approached WB with a pitch as to how he would adapt the character(ref1). We do not know whether he was proposing he'd portray the role, or what is proposition was. We also don't know if his pitch was about the Clark Kent incarnation of Superman. The actor later walked away from the idea, given his busy film schedule. Those are the FACTS. Furthermore, Cavill has since stated that A) He is still Superman, and not done with the role/has more to give in a more source-accurate capacity(ref2}; and B) His position in a Netflix series is why he hasn't reprised the role of Superman, but that futhermore - this series will no longer interfere with his role as Superman.{ref3). The most recent piece of news was that J. J. Abrams had entered negotiations to take control of the project(ref4). NONE of these events state what you had claimed. All OF THEM support that the DCEU as-is, is still a thing - and will continue on its current path.
 * The New Gods: This one was an issue on this talkpage for a LONG time. Deadline (which is one of the most reliable sources) stated that it was a DCEU movie, while Variety stated that the project -at that time- had no connective tissue to other DC Films. Much was over-read into that statement (which to other readers/editors - including myself) meant that it is a 'standalone' installment/movie. Since then however, multiple reliable sources have stated that it is a part of the DCEU film franchise. I have listed these sources ad nauseam previously. (will attach if need be).
 * Blackhawk: Here's an interesting one. There are multiple sources (RELIABLE) that state it is a DCEU movie... and there are absolutely none that say it is not. I have also attached TONS of these in previous discussions...
 * Aquaman 2: The movie has the #2 in its current title...
 * Shazam 2: Also has the #2....
 * Black Adam: Dwayne Johnson has multiple times stated that Black Adam will build upon the mythos of the current "DCU"/DCEU, and that Shazam and Black Adam will battle in a future movie. This ties the film to Shazam! and for those that don't remember - Shazam! had TONS of DCEU references/callbacks/etc.

ALL of these things continue to build on my previous statements. The studio's decision to focus on individual stories before another team-up movie, does NOT mean that the current film series/"shared universe"/film franchise is dead (ref). The studio has simply realized they can't try to copy the MCU/another media franchise. Furthermore, filmmakers involved have coraborated the fact that the studio is focusing on individual movies, before another team-up movie (i.e.: Justice League sequel/followup ref1 ref2). The topic as a whole DEFINITELY/extensive and separate from other DC adaptations, and therefor should NOT be "retooled" as this section states. Revisions to the article are enough.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 07:38, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Much like how The Suicide Squad (now confirmed to be a reboot) started off as Suicide Squad 2, there has been no confirmation that The Batman has anything to do with the the DCEU since it began production. The script has also undergone rewrites since then, the latest of which was turned in in late-2018. It began development as a DCEU prequel way back when it was announced, and there has been zero confirmation that that's still the case. The casting of Jeffrey Wright as James Gordon makes it pretty evident that it's no longer the case. Unless you have a more current source, then yes, then the information you are going off of is outdated. It's like trying to use a scientific journal from 2005 to justify that Pluto is a planet. The source you provided was from August 2017 (before Justice League flopped and WB reshuffled executives and decided to move away from the cinematic universe direction). So yeah, completely outdated.
 * Your interpretation of the sources is also dishonest. The source batlantly says that they are going in a more franchise-oriented direction moving forward, not that that has been the case all along. To quote the source, Other sources (including Variety) are 100% consistent with this as well, , , . And you are in fact assuming that all future films are in the DCEU by default. As Joebro mentioned earlier, your position seems to be backed largely by WP:IDONTLIKEIT and cherry-picked outdated references.  Dark  Knight  2149  23:54, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * simply because there has been a "rewrite" on the script, does not mean a thing. That doesn't support your claims that it is reworked to be disconnected from the DCEU. Furthermore, the argument that Wright's casting does anything is the definition of WP:OR. Looking back to the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher films -- Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent in Batman, while Tommy Lee Jones played him in Batman Forever. This example, as well as Jeffrey Wright's casting as Jim Gordon have no effect on film's place in the film franchise. Additionally, stop assuming that I'm "cherry picking" sources. I have provided sources that state the film is in the franchise. Where are yours that supposedly state that it isn't? I have simply stated facts. I will continue to add films and their sources. I would also ask how my "interpretation of the sources is...dishonest"...? Where do you come off with these accusations?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 07:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * What are you on about? Virtually every single reliable source (again, including Variety) is reporting that The Batman is a reboot.

}}
 * https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/12/07/the-batman-new-movie-robert-pattinson-release-date-cast-plot-trailer-2021


 * https://variety.com/2019/film/news/the-batman-release-date-1203124294/


 * https://www.gamesradar.com/the-batman-2021-release-date-cast-villains-trailer/


 * https://ew.com/movies/2019/10/17/paul-dano-riddler-batman/


 * https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/16/18628675/robert-pattinson-new-batman-matt-reeves


 * https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/05/17/robert-pattinson-cast-as-batman-in-new-reboot/


 * Several of these sources also back up the producer's statement that The Suicide Squad is a reboot. The Batman has gone through several iterations and rewrites since it began development. The sources you presented are demonstrably outdated and were from before Justice League flopped, which is what ultimately prompted various WB executives to step down, most of the DCEU slate to get cancelled, and the company to move away from the shared universe model to begin with (events that have been covered in-depth by sources). If we're going by up-to-date reliable sources, The Suicide Squad and The Batman are reboots. Plain and simple.


 * On a side note, if Matt Reeves starts making decisions as bizarre as Joel Schumacher's Batman choices, then this movie is in biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig trouble. Just sayin'.  Dark Knight  2149  07:41, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

- the most reliable source you just attached was Variety, and nothing on that article stated that The Batman is not DCEU. Secondly, 'reboot' is a loose term in the sources you provided. The word 'reboot' in Entertainment Weekly source you provided was in regards to the character juxtaposed to previous Batman film series. Lastly, your Games Radar, IGN, Polygon, and ComicBook sources are journalists' observations. Once again - not direct/primary sources. Simply commentary on the topics. Also, Reeves won't make Schumacher mistakes.... I'm saying the fact that Jeffrey Wright was cast as Jim Gordon, makes no difference.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 07:57, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, those are all reliable third party sources and reboot is a very specific term with a very specific meaning. There's also nothing to indicate that these are simply their "journalistic observations", especially when virtually every source is currently reporting it to be a reboot (the links I posted, which include Variety, are just a select few). I can't find any current source stating it's anything other than a reboot.  Dark Knight  2149  08:05, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

So, if I am to summarize the points of view, they would be that:


 * 1) that retooling is necessary, since the terms used to define the series are - at best - vague or contradictory, or
 * 2) that retooling is not necessary because the rest of us are simply misinterpreting the sources.

If I have misunderstood your view, please concisely (meaning one sentence only) correct my misinterpretation. I am trying to clearly define each point of view, so try to avoid responding to the other's views. Just state your own, please. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The 'point of view' is under that I just placed with reliable sources... A stronger definition of the film franchise - which doesn't have a title, is perhaps an issue that needs resolving - but it without debate is still an alive film franchise/film series/continuity/etc etc.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:01, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Position - the article is undoubtedly notable, and Encyclopedia noteworthy. Could it use some adjustments in the "development" sections with detailed coverage of the studio's revamping of the franchise? Yes. Should it be 'retooled' into an article that covers all DC Films or DC adaptaions? No. Regardless, it is not a thing of the past as several editors have suggested.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:04, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Nobody is proposing that this article be made to cover all DC adaptations. The proposal is to retool the article to cover DC Films specifically, the DC movie studio established in 2016 that encompasses the DCEU and films like Joker. Undoubtedly, retooling is absolutely needed because WB isn't focusing on a shared universe moving forward (which has been confirmed and verified in this very thread) and the current article automatically assumes that every upcoming DC movie (including reported reboots like The Batman and The Suicide Squad) are in the DCEU, which is blatant WP:OR. DCEU holds no special notability over DC Films, and most of DisneyMetalHead's claims are coming from outdated sources.  Dark Knight  2149  08:13, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I would agree with Darkknight here, it is clear that DC is not just focused on a single shared universe like Marvel. The article should reflect their approach, which still includes DCEU movies but is branching back out into standalone stories as well. - adamstom97 (talk) 11:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Looking over and elsewhere, DisneyMetalHead sure is doing a lot of interpreting to justify why the sources supposedly don't mean what they actually say. Case of point - - First of all, this blatant WP:OR. Film producers have more control than the director does, and there is nothing to suggest that he was "speaking out of turn". Cast members returning also doesn't automatically mean that it's in the same continuity, as we have seen with Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance and other franchises. Every third party source is currently reporting The Batman and The Suicide Squad to be reboots in actual news articles, which DisneyMetalHead is also trying to dance around.

DisneyMetalHead's "sources" for The New Gods also further demonstrate why the page needs to be retooled. As for the Man of Steel section, the sources once again state that WB is in the process of completely rebooting Superman to make him "relevant" to modern audiences, and the Michael B. Jordan thing is backed by Variety. Henry Cavill has also been widely reported to have been retired from the Superman role by WB. Cavill simply expressing an interest in reprising the role changes nothing. Jared Leto expressed an interest in returning as the Joker, and actively tried to get the Joaquin Phoenix movie cancelled, and sources are reporting that WB has no interest in bringing him back either.  Dark Knight  2149  08:34, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The Deadline source cited for New Gods doesn't even say it's a DCEU film, and in fact implies the opposite because it says there is "no connection to the other DC worlds being exploited for film right now by Warner Bros." JOE BRO  64  12:56, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

So, where is the middle ground here? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Here's a source recent/new -- Christina Hodson (writer of Birds of Prey) refers to the franchise as a 'universe'. The question was asked if there will be connections to "other DCEU" films, and her response was that she didn't want to give anything away. That it'd be a continuation of Suicide Squad while standing on its own. That's the difference here between 'reboot' vs standalone/relaunch (ref).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

and you clearly have not read the sources I provided. I stated that The Suicide Squad film is "tricky" because of the verbage that has been used. The Variety source also didn't state that The Batman is a reboot. Additionally, each of the sources I have placed are not 'out of date'. The Michael B. Jordan detail was mentioned in-passing and referring to 'earlier in the year' (of 2019). Frankly, Cavill's more recent comments/confirmations are more up-to-date than a statement saying that Jordan had pitched an idea to WB....--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:41, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * the middle-ground would be to adjust this page to where everyone agrees. It doesn't need to be rolled into the DC Films article, as that article is a film studio/label. If everyone wants to add to that page - that would be constructive. Finding movies/projects that people believe shouldn't be on here, would require the studio stating that it is not part of the same franchise.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:43, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 come out this year and began production over 2-3 years ago, so those aren't exactly valid as far as your DCEU argument is concerned. It's largely the post-Wonder Woman 1984 films that we're concerned with. Henry Cavill also didn't make a "confirmation" of any sort. He expressed an interest in returning, which doesn't mean anything considering that he's not a WB executive and doesn't have any creative control.  Dark Knight  2149  17:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * - The sources listed directly call it a reboot (which is a specific term with a specific meaning) and the film's producer flat out stated that it's no longer called Suicide Squad 2 because it's a total reboot. It doesn't get any clearer than that. This is a quintessential WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument.  Dark Knight  2149  18:27, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

If we were to merge this article into DC Films, what would we do with Man of Steel and BvS? Since they preceded the creation of DC Films but are still clearly in the same franchise and continuity than those films which followed them. Would we have a "DC Extended Universe" section in which they would also be mentioned? Would it be a "Background" section? Either way we should give it some thought. El Millo (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Mentioning it in a background section or in the DCEU section would both be viable options. After all, those are the two films that laid the groundwork for DC Films' initial slate.  Dark Knight  2149  20:58, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Birds of Prey began production, literally January of last year. Walter Hamada (head of DC Films) was already hired by that point, and had taken control of the studio/label's output. Therefor, your argument regarding the films following his hiring -- are all invalid. Hamada had plenty of time to alter/cancel projects, as you're suggesting he's done with The Suicide Squad (which is also referred to as Suicide Squad 2 by multiple sources) and The Batman. A prime example of this actually happening would be Kevin Feige taking control of Marvel Television - and cancelling many of the TV shows that were in development, prior to his consolidation of Marvel TV into Marvel Studios. A statement that supports this, Christina Hodson (writer of Birds of Prey), who is now working on The Flash stated that there are studio executives who work under Hamada, who are in charge of making sure that there are connections between the movies moving forward. After being asked about how the DCEU connects now and moving forward, she literally she says: "DC itself [being] the ones overseeing [the franchise]...Obviously, there's been a change in leadership there. [President of DC Films] Walter Hamada really knows what he's doing. He's so good at his job. And he has a real love for these characters and for this material, so it's looking to him more than anything. And obviously, with a lot of us, we've gotten to know each other, especially the writers, we all have friends now, which is lovely. We read each other's stuff and help each other. But yeah, mostly it's going through Walter and DC."(ref) There's a studio involved person telling us how the structure of this franchise/the DCEU works moving forward. We don't need to figure it out ourselves (that would be WP:OR). Also, -- I am not merely stating these things for WP:IDONTLIKEIT reasons. Secondly - Cavill's management has repeatedly stated that he is still Superman. Those are the facts.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Your source talks about how the company DC Films will be managed moving forward, but it doesn't say anything about WB being focused on a shared universe, and statements that WB themselves made to sources like The Hollywood Reporter would trump anything that a hired screenwriter would say if she were to contradict them (which she didn't). When she said "franchise", she was referring to DC as a whole. Nowhere does it specify a focus on the Snyderverse moving forward.


 * Even Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 are more standalone focused. One is set in a "parallel timeline" with Harley Quinn serving as an unreliable narrator and where Batman is absent from Gotham City, the other has been distanced from the word "sequel" by Patti Jenkins and is set in the 1980s. And of course, Batman and Suicide Squad are getting (soft?) reboots. This all shows that WB is moving away from the shared universe model, not the opposite. Notice how your source refers to Birds of Prey as a "standalone" and every upcoming movie is being referred to as a "standalone". The DCEU is very likely being phased out, and all of the sources point towards them moving away from a shared universe. Your passionate insistence that we keep everything the way it is (original research and all) baffles me.


 * As for Henry Cavill, are you referring to this? Because all it is is Henry Cavill saying that he hasn't given up on the role and wants to return. The Superman situation isn't up to Henry Cavill, unfortunately. Jared Leto found that out the hard way when he tried to get the Joker movie cancelled behind-the-scenes at Warner Brothers.  Dark Knight  2149  23:03, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

There really isn't a middle ground here. DisneyMetalHead is literally suggesting that every upcoming DC movie be treated as DCEU until WB specifically says that it's not. That is not how our verifiability policies work. DisneyMetalHead has also been heavily cherry-picking when it comes to sources, and when presented with contradictory citations from reliable sources (such as Variety and THR), s/he tries to reinterpret it as "Oh, that's not what they ACTUALLY meant."


 * The producer of The Suicide Squad explicitly stated that the film is a total reboot, and every current source is reporting it as such. That isn't good enough for DisneyMetalHead.
 * Most current news sources are currently calling The Batman a reboot and none of them say anything about it being in the DCEU. That isn't good enough for DisneyMetalHead, who is going off of outdated sources from before Justice League was released and subsequently bombed at the box office.
 * I linked a source from The Hollywood Reporter published in 2019 where a WB executive directly stated that they are moving away from their shared universe method and focusing on individual franchises moving forward. In response, DisneyMetalHead has been trying to synthesise as many sources as they can to justify why that isn't actually the case.
 * Now DisneyMetalHead has linked a news article about the hired screenwriter of Birds of Prey discussing WB's approach to upcoming films, and it doesn't say anything about WB focusing on a shared universe moving forward. The screenwriter of a single movie also doesn't trump the statement from Warner Brothers themselves published by The Hollywood Reporter.

However, I don't think it matters too much in the long run. There is a growing consensus for the page to be retooled, and only one person has supported DisneyMetalHead so far, and they have only done so solely on the basis of Wonder Woman 1984 existing (which, like Birds of Prey, began development shortly after the first film in 2017 and is about to be released).  Dark Knight  2149  02:40, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

, is Darkknight2149 correct in his evaluation? Do you want to consider every movie to be within the DCEU unless sources explicitly state that it is not? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:45, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not. keeps assuming the worst in each of my comments. I am not cherry-picking, nor am I trying to state that all DC Films are related unless otherwise clarified. My argument is that, Christina Hodson responded to questions positioned to her regarding the future of the DCEU, and Birds of Prey's connections to it. In the interview she explicitly laid out how the structure and organizational planning of the film franchise is and will continue. Notably, she is also the screenwriter for The Flash and will follow that up with Batgirl. Those are my statements. Those are the facts from these sources. Likewise, Darkknight2149 stated that "only one person has supported" me... Regardless of this fact, I have only cited reliable sources throughout this discussion.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2
Sidenotes: previously stated that Birds of Prey was unrelated to Suicide Squad, while - here is Margot Robbie (star/PRODUCER) stating that she knows the 'backstory' of what has happened in-universe between Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey... The editor previously stated that a producer 'trumps' all others involved... (where do they get this logic from, I wonder?) -- so therefore, this irrefutably confirms that Birds of Prey is a Suicide Squad follow-up. She states: "From the very beginning it was a conscious choice of they have to be broken up at this stage...."(ref).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:24, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The problem is that the sources, once again, don't actually say what you claim they do. In your latest quotation, you missed the part where Margot Robbie said that she formulated a backstory in her head for Harley Quinn. This has nothing to do with the movie's continuing to follow a shared universe model: . You also continue to miss the point that we are primarily discussing WB's post-Wonder Woman 1984 slate, not the two movies that went into development back in 2017 and come out this year. I don't think anyone here has a strong problem with Birds of Prey or Wonder Woman 1984 specifically being classified as DCEU.


 * As for your other sources, literally nothing in there confirms anything about WB continuing to follow a shared universe model moving forward (as you keep claiming) - She's describing the company structure and deferring to WB's executives. Some of the DCEU writers have read each other's scripts (back when she was writing Birds of Prey), but now it's all going through Walter Hamada. Nothing in there confirms anything about a continued shared universe model for DC's upcoming slate, and as a hired screenwriter for a single movie that she wrote two years ago, she wouldn't be qualified to give out that information anyway. Once again, here's what actual WB had to say about it:


 * My information is also coming from the likes of Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, WB executives, and the actual producers, whereas you keep (unintentionally, I assume) misquoting actors and screenwriters while also pointing to outdated sources from 2017. Much of your "interpretations" of the sources also fall under WP:SYN.  Dark Knight  2149  04:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * As for The Suicide Squad: Here's some interviews from Jai Courtney (an actor, whom editors have stated 'trump' reliable-sourced articles) stating that The Suicide Squad is a sequel by confirming that he is reprising his role, back with the gang, and calling Suicide Squad "the first movie" while talking about this second one. Lastly he states "I'm pumped, ". He also continues to call the film "Skwad" (i.e.: This was the cast's abbreviated film title from the first film, that they all got tattooed on eachother)(ref1&ref2)...there's clearly conflicting comments on this film. However, here is one of the main actors stating that this is a "reprise" of the Captain Boomerang role. According to Webster's Dictionary, "Reprise" in a verb form means: A repeated performance(ref).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:54, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Literally nobody said that. I actually said the opposite - statements from reliable sources, producers, and studio executives trump statements from hired actors and screenwriters (who don't make decisions as far as franchise directions and continuity is concerned). But that doesn't matter, because you are still twisting sources into something they're not.


 * Literally none of this confirms that it's a sequel. To "reprise" or to "come back" means to play the same role you did in another movie. If Heath Ledger came down from the heavens and played the Joker in Suicide Squad, he would be reprising his role (even though Suicide Squad has nothing to do with The Dark Knight). JK Simmons reprised his role as J. Jonah Jameson in Spider-Man: Far From Home, which has nothing to do with the Raimi films. ETC. Suicide Squad (2016) is also "the first movie" because it's the first adaptation of the Suicide Squad comics. None of this says anything about continuity.


 * Several sources a lot more reliable than ComingSoon.Net, including Variety and the film's producer, are flat out calling it a reboot. Are you really arguing with the actual producer of the movie?  Dark Knight  2149  05:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Say, why don't we (meaning ) and ) try this ONE MORE TIME: Explain your position:
 * IN ONE, BRIEF SENTENCE (and one sentence ONLY), and
 * without attacking the other guys position

I do not need refs (I can see them). I do not need to be told where the hole in another user's viewpoint (its counterproductive). I want to hear each viewpoint, stated simply. It should not be hard to do, right? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:08, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * There's too much nuance to properly water it down to a single sentence. You can tell my position by reading the proposal by me and at the top of the section (his comment and my first response to it). If you read DisneyMetalHead's first one or two responses to that, you can get an idea of why s/he opposes it.


 * The short version: Me and TheJoebro proposed that the article be retooled and merged with DC Films (the studio article) to reflect DC's film slate, because WB isn't focusing on a shared universe moving forward and there is a lot of WP:OR about upcoming films (such as The Batman, The New Gods, and The Suicide Squad) taking place in the DCEU. So far, me, Joebro, and all support this.


 * DisneyMetalHead is vehemently against this because s/he thinks the article is perfectly fine the way it is, and (contrary to statements from WB) that the DCEU will continue for the foreseeable future in its current form.  Dark Knight  2149  05:27, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * (why is it so hard to follow a simple two-part request?)
 * Let me give it a try, Dark: You think the article needs to be retooled and merged with DC films to reflect DC Film's overall release schedule.
 * Is that a fair assessment of your (an d JoeBro's) view? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:34, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * In a (very compact) nutshell, yes. That is correct.  Dark Knight  2149  05:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Cool; compact is what I was looking for. How about you, ? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * My position remains: This article, could use some adjustments in the "development" sections with detailed coverage of the studio's revamping of the franchise, but that it shouldn't be 'retooled' into an article that covers all DC Films (which is a studio label); because there are various reliable sources which state the opposite of what is being proposed. This article is about a film series/franchise, not a list of studio releases.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:00, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, allow me to condense/summarize your view (and feel free to correct me if I get it wrong), : you also think the article needs adjustments, but not to the point where the article bloats up with every DC film. Is that close to what your position? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think what DMH is saying is that we should still treat DC's film slate as a single shared universe franchise with just a note that interconnectivity has been downplayed. The problem with that approach is that ignores that WB explicitly said the shared universe is no longer a focus at all in the THR reference Darkknight provided above. Merging this with DC Films would help rectify the issues we have when it comes to classifying films like The Batman and New Gods. JOE BRO  64  16:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I must have missed that bit about WB explicitly stating that the shared universe is "no longer a focus"; could you please link that reference here? I am not rendering my own opinion (yet), but am making sure that the terrain before us is completely illuminated.- Jack Sebastian (talk) 12:24, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * it's in here. JOE BRO  64  22:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

It should be clarified that the only film not to be included in the DC Extended Universe but that would be included in a merger with DC Films as of now is Joker. El Millo (talk) 16:50, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I would consider that a woefully inaccurate assessment, . There are several films that do not fall within the DCEU banner, according to (apparently) consensus. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm going by the table present at DC Films. And Joker is apparently the only one where the consensus is clearly that it isn't part of the DCEU. El Millo (talk) 18:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think The Kitchen was a DC Films production as well, but yes, Joker was their first non-DCEU production since they dropped the shared universe approach. JOE BRO  64  16:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * If you're referring to The Kitchen, it was by DC Vertigo. El Millo (talk) 17:05, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I know that DC Vertigo is credited, but isn't it still a DC Films production? I know just "DC" is credited on most films based on DC's main comic line. JOE BRO  64  17:35, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hamada is not credited on the film, so I assume it is not a DC Films production. Not sure why. Pre  fall  17:51, 25 January 2020 (UTC)e

your understanding is correct. I agree that this article needs some work, and definitely needs a more extensive coverage of the fact that the studio has restructured their original plans. However, I disagree that all DC Films should be combined. Especially since this article is referring to a series of films, while DC Films is a film studio/label. I have also not seen any reliable source from Warner Bros. Pictures, that "explicitly states that a shared universe is not longer a focus". Please attach it.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, The Kitchen was/is definitely a DC Films release. DC Films is the studio label/subsidiary of Warner Bros. for all DC related films. Another film that has no relation to the DCEU but falls under their release slate is the Super Pets animated movie.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It isn't. There is no mention of DC Films in the article, nor in the credits at the official website. To compare, the official website for Joker has the DC Films logo amongst its credits. El Millo (talk) 19:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Another sidenote to consider: DCEU has always been an unofficial title. Warner Bros. has stated they never call it that, while individuals involved with the films have referred to it as the DCU. Its notably difficult to argue its favor, when the title alone is unofficial. The studio did however release extensive coverage of their presence at Comic-Con 2018 where they referred to the entire film slate as "Worlds of DC". Additionally there was a special on television where individuals involved continuously called the film series, the "Justice League Universe". With various monikers, again we can't pointedly argue in favor of an article without an official name.

Recently, the DCEU 'crossed over' with the Arrowverse in their "Crisis of Infinite Earths" event. Perhaps an adjusted title of "DC Film multiverse", which would have a sub-section for television acknowledging the Arrowverse/its crossover, and sub-sections for the "DCEU film" slate, and standalone releases(?). The would be constructive, helpful, and resolve this discussion. What this would do is change the debate, seeing as reliable sources still call this film slate the DCEU, while also keeping DC Films article separate - which is a film studio label and not a franchise. This would also allow coverage of the fact that Joker was announced as a separate banner "DC Black", but became just a standalone 'one-and-done' movie. ,, , , , (all editors who have commented on this discussion) -- Thoughts?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:05, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * No, classifying all non-DCEU films as part of the "multiverse" is ridiculous WP:INUNIVERSE and WP:OR. Again, WB has explicitly stated that they aren't focusing on a shared universe anymore. This article needs to reflect that. Bringing back actors or continuing specific films doesn't magically change that, and 's assessment is wildly inaccurate. The Suicide Squad is a confirmed reboot, The Batman is reportedly a reboot, The New Gods has been stated not to be part of the DCEU, The Flash is confirmed to be adapting Flashpoint (which will probably solve DC's shared universe problem), Joker may very well get a sequel and WB is considering making more character study supervillain films, and even Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 are being heavily touted as "standalones".


 * We have to go by the actual sources (not DisneyMetalHead's erroneous WP:SYN and interpretation of sources), and right now, there is zero reason to keep the article the way it is. The DCEU holds no special notability over DC Films, and DisneyMetalHead's extreme insistence that we maintain focus on a shared universe feels incredibly biased at this point.  Dark Knight  2149  19:56, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * my assessment was in favor of your proposal. DisneyMetalhead is still contesting that those films you mention (The Batman, The Suicide Squad, etc.) are part of the DCEU, that's why I said that the only case we all agree isn't part of the DCEU is Joker, which would be the only one of those listed in DC Films that isn't already listed in the DCEU article. El Millo (talk) 20:06, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * My mistake. Thank you for clarifying.  Dark Knight  2149  20:09, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 3: finding common ground
Okay, the common thread I am interpreting from the mix of commentary above is that the article is unsuitable as it is currently, and needs to be revised. I think it would be helpful if - and I am just throwing this out there - to recognize that there are not that many films in the DCEU. The DCEU is a term that was not invented by a studio (and hasn't really been in active use since 2017). There is no agreed-upon, rock-solid name for the films that explicitly connect with one another, from BvS through Justice League. There have been trilogies, to be sure, and the Arrowverse was pretty much the only one that even tried to connect the multiverse (and even then, with only limited success). I think that acknowledging that - unless it is explicitly stated that a film is part of a shared, interacting universe (ie, Batman calls upon John Jonzz for a cup of sugar or whatev), we cannot make the assumption that it is. It also changes significantly the trajectory of this article's goals. Let's try creating encapsulated sections, by (maybe) year of release. That way, Nolan's Batman series is set apart by itself, just like Burton's and Schumacher's versions. While I think that the peregrine view is that DC has abandoned its attempt to mimic the MCU, no one has presented here an explicit link that states that. By segregating the films by year and grouping, we can avoid the DCEU arguments wherein we are using crappy, vague sources to argue fan gossip into reality. Of course, this is just one approach to the problem; your mileage may vary. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:06, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * There's a couple of things wrong here, though.


 * -Yes, I actually have. Numerous times.


 * - Those wouldn't factor into the retooled page at all. The proposal was for this article to be merged with the DC Films article, so it would only cover Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and the DC Films studio slate (which includes Joker and the upcoming films). You are thinking of List of films based on DC Comics, which doesn't enter the equation. The Suicide Squad was also confirmed by the film's producer to be a reboot, and most reliable news sources are currently calling The Batman a reboot. None of that is gossip.  Dark Knight  2149  21:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think one thing that's worth noting is that the DC Films article is basically a stub, and I think it will remain so unless merged. There's not much to say about it that isn't directly tied to films/franchises, so it strikes me as a case of "notability" being inherited. JOE BRO  64  22:44, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for re-supplying the link, JoeBro64; it had gotten lost in the wall of text.
 * Secondly, now is the time for you to suggest a specific plan forward. It feels like trying to deconstruct other plans is both counterproductive and argumentative. Propose solutions, not problems. Try that again - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:08, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Jack, our proposal is at the top of the section. It's to retool the page so that the focus is on the DC Films studio and their larger film slate, rather than putting too much WP:WEIGHT on the shared universe itself. This would also eliminate WP:OR in regard to upcoming films supposedly being part of a shared universe. We would:
 * Merge DC Films with this article and discuss their entire movie slate (including the DCEU and non-DCEU standalones) here.
 * For the immediate future, remove  from the leads of all post-Wonder Woman 1984 DC movie articles, since they aren't focusing on a shared universe moving forward. This can always be re-added if something changes closer to those films' release.
 * Create sections in the new DC Films article for the Shared Universe (Man of Steel through Wonder Woman 1984), Standalone Films (Joker and the other films that don't stand with any franchise), and Future (for any upcoming films, eliminating WP:OR as far as the DCEU is concerned). There would be other standard sections, such as movie crossovers with television, box office, Reception, ETC.
 * I hope that explains it. So far, there seems to be a growing consensus for this.  Dark Knight  2149  03:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Darkknight, that does indeed explain it. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

your observation regarding The Flash film incorporating Flashpoint concepts and that it will have the same influence on the DCEU as it did in the comics - is definition of WP:OR. Also, you continue to state that reliable sources say that New Gods has no connection, while I have supplied various sources that state that it is. Additionally, a confirmation from Reeves stating that The Batman is DCEU is a direct source. In contrast and notably so, James Gunn has remained silent regarding The Suicide Squad as a "reboot" as the producer stated....--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * - It's only WP:OR if I were advocating for us to say that in the actual article space. My overall point is that stating it's in a shared universe is what's WP:OR in this situation.
 * - You also pointed out reliable sources stating that it isn't.
 * - We've been over this. Your one source is from 2017, back before Justice League was released and subsequently flopped (causing WB to fire most of their producers and completely shift direction). Most current third party sources are reporting it to be a reboot, and absolutely none of them make the claim that it's still in the DCEU. Heck, even Matt Reeves statement on Twitter from August 2017 that you keep citing is somewhat vague.
 * - You are aware that in Hollywood productions, the producers have more control over the director right? The producer is literally the director of the director. James Gunn has remained silent because it's not his place to decide what film is in what continuity. Not only did the producer say that it's a total reboot, but every reliable source including Variety is reporting it as such. So we definitely can't claim that it's part of the DCEU.  Dark Knight  2149  22:45, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

the producer is not. That is inaccurate. In some cases, they may take control of a film but that is definitely not a defining characteristic. The sources regarding The Batman - again do not state that WB has classified the film as a reboot. That's just fact. They haven't. The only source related to the project that has said anything is Matt Reeves - writer/director/producer. Secondly, James Gunn came onboard to direct The Suicide Squad once the script for its original title Suicide Squad 2 was deemed too similar to Birds of Prey... needless to say he was hired long before Safran made his comment. Lastly, New Gods has reliable sources since that state it is DCEU. So the definitions and parameters you have set in place, are all void by one avenue or another.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) How are the titles remotely similar? 2) You're going to need a source for that. 3) You're also going to need a source stating that Gunn signed onto the project before Safran. 4) We are not in a hurry. If The Batman is part of a shared universe, it will eventually get confirmed either way. Your one source is from before Justice League flopped, before the company changed direction from the shared universe model, and before the final draft of the script was written. 5) Yes, producers generally have more control than the director in big studio films. 6) It's not ambiguous. Every major primary and secondary source is currently saying that The Suicide Squad is a reboot. That's just how verifiability works on Wikipedia.  Dark Knight  2149  06:07, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * you're going to have to clarify what you mean by all your numbers. Gunn was attached to the project before Safran was producer. He was hired to write the script in October 2018, while Peter Safran was announced as producer in January 2019. There is no hurry, but there is again no references stating that The Batman is not DCEU. However there are plenty that have stated that it is - including the writer/director/producer Matt Reeves. Doesn't get more direct than that. As for New Gods - I've already attached the sources various times, which indirectly had influence over the initiation of this entire conversation.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 05:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, where's your credible source stating that Peter Safran (who is nothing more than a producer on the project, as well as in-general) is in control of The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2? --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 05:14, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * "Nothing more than a producer" is a fallacy, and literally every primary and secondary source is reporting it to be a reboot. We have a source from WB themselves stating a shift in focus away from the shared universe, and in the case of The Batman (which is currently reported to be a reboot by most reliable third party news sources), making no claim is preferable to making a poorly sourced one. We're dancing in circles, and the discussion has died down. I think it's time to start wrapping this up or getting other users involved.  Dark Knight  2149  07:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

obviously there is no definitive answer to this. Which is why I suggested leaving it as-is until WB themselves confirms anything. Where's your source that Safran is anything more than a producer? That is all he is credited for: fact. Additionally, in case you haven't seen it yet - in Birds of Prey, Harley Quinn literally teases the "new Batman movie" with the trailer beginning before cutting to black. It's connected.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * By that logic, James Gunn is "nothing more than a director." And the WB statement is "nothing more than an executive." And so on. "Nothing more than a producer" is a fallacy. Every primary and secondary source says that The Suicide Squad is a reboot, and "producer" isn't a chump position. It's as simple as that. I'm also going to need to see a source for that tease. It can't just be you saying it.
 * Just because Batman exists in the Birds of Prey universe doesn't mean it's connected to The Batman.  Dark Knight  2149  06:44, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that being a producer is . I'm saying he is the producer. That does not mean that he is in charge of the film, as you have indicated. Also, your source for the Batman tease will be once you see the movie, I guess.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 09:07, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, producers oversee the production of the film. A producer saying that it's a reboot, coupled with every third party source including Variety, is as valid a confirmation as it gets. And what is this Batman tease? Because them mentioning the character doesn't mean it's connected to The Batman. Superman was mentioned in Batman and Robin and Spider-Man 2 mentioned Doctor Strange, and those weren't connected to anything.


 * It would not only need to reference Batman, but there would need to be direct proof that they are referencing Robert Pattinson's Batman specifically. Harley Quinn is a Batman villain, Black Mask is a Batman villain, Zsasz is a Batman villain, so it makes sense that a version of Batman gets mentioned. Considering the film began production two years ago, they might be even be referencing Ben Affleck's Batman.  Dark Knight  2149  09:16, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

A few things:
 * 1. You'll see, once you see the movie.
 * 2. A producer funds the movie. Yes, some situations they have more control. As I've shown Gunn was attached before Safran. You'll need a source stating that Safran is controlling the film.
 * 3. Also, the word "reboot" is a word that is more loosely used in today's media. It doesn't mean what it has in the past.
 * 4. New sources confirming its connected: In a very recent interview Margot Robbie, states that though Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2 aren't "directly connected" ...(ref1). In the same article, Sue Kroll (who is also a producer on Birds of Prey) states that though Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad are developed as installments - they are connected: (ref2).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:26, 2 February 2020 (UTC)


 * - No, we don't.  Dark Knight  2149  22:30, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes you absolutely will to support your claims. Safran's only capacity right now is as producer. This does not mean that he is in control of the film. Also, those sources I provided states that Birds of Prey is connected to The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * P.S. you misquoted me^. What I said was: ""--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:06, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * A producer is a perfectly valid confirmation. Third party sources including Variety are all reporting the same thing. We're not going to jump through mental hoops to justify why it's not. None of your statements directly confirm ties to a larger shared universe. I'm done with this argument.  Dark Knight  2149  22:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * We sort of seem to be going in circles right now. Perhaps an RFC to decide this? JOE BRO  64  23:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen Birds of Prey yet, but apparently Robert Pattinson's Batman reboot is in fact never referenced, Ben Affleck (who is retired at this point) does not make an appearance and his character is suspiciously absent from Gotham City, and the only references to an outside universe are brief flashbacks to Harley's origin in Suicide Squad and Harley naming her pet after "that hunky Wayne guy." So as sources have indicated, this film is either:
 * 1. Set in a literal parallel timeline to the DCEU.
 * 2. Set in general continuity of the DCEU, but it is just as standalone-focused as every other upcoming DC film.
 * 3. A standalone sequel to Suicide Squad and likely isn't setting a precedent for The Suicide Squad or any other upcoming films.
 * Either way, we know that Wonder Woman 1984 is also a standalone film that isn't considered a sequel by the film's director. The Batman is almost certainly a total reboot. The Suicide Squad is a total reboot, per every current primary and secondary source. And we already have a consensus for a page retool (several users have supported the position that the upcoming films aren't focusing on the shared universe and the only person strongly against it is DisneyMetalHead). I'm about to post another Arbitrary Break to hopefully wrap all of this up and gather any last minute comments/votes.  Dark Knight  2149  21:51, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 4
A consensus is not based off of votes. That's not how this works. Secondly, the fact that you haven't seen Birds of Prey explains your in-descript statements on the film. The cast of Birds of Prey state here in an interview with MTV that they may appear in a future Batman film with Robert Pattinson. Robbie is a producer for Birds of Prey. By your own analysis - producers control everything. Additionally, Birds of Prey references Suicide Squad throughout, while also referencing The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2 with the reemergence of Captain Boomerang.


 * Furthermore - as stated before, here is further proof that The Suicide Squad will indeed be connected. ...(ref1). In the same article, Sue Kroll (who is also a producer on Birds of Prey) states that though Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad are developed as installments - they are connected: (ref2). --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:41, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Consensus is determined by the majority viewpoint in discussion based on sources, and right now, even the sources you just provided blatantly state the upcoming films are all going in a standalone direction. WB themselves have said that they are moving away from the shared universe model and going in a standalone-focused direction, especially since Justice League flopped. Notably, Sue Kroll also says that there wasn't any consultation between the filmmakers and she isn't even involved with The Suicide Squad. Any upcoming films like Joker are also getting made under the regular DC banner. Let's face it, there really isn't a singular "media franchise" or shared universe anymore. Most people here agree that the sources indicate a standalone-focused direction for DC's films. That's a consensus.
 * In retrospect, the decision to split DC Films and DC Extended Universe falls heavily under WP:RECENTISM, WP:WEIGHT, and even WP:CRYSTAL in terms of assuming that this was going to last as some crossover-focused wholly interconnected direction like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. There's no reason to keep this merry-go-round going.  Dark Knight  2149  23:14, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

it is not however an election, nor a vote. The sources provided simply state that the directors/filmmakers are allowed freedom to focus on individualized characters instead of a building/over-arching story like Marvel. It does not state that the film franchise is over. What Sue Kroll states is that the return of Captain Boomerang in Birds of Prey was because there were discussions to connect it and The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2 together "organic[ally]". That is exactly what is stated. It is connected to each other. Again, it is presumptuous to state that the franchise is "over" - when it continues to release critically acclaimed films. My analogy would be - that the football team (Warner Bros. Pictures) changed their game-plan (technique), not the entire sport (DCEU). I have stated multiple times that this article needs to explore that fact in more detail. I completely disagree however that DC Films (which is a film studio label), should be compiled with this page - which is about a functioning/current film series franchise.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 01:40, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * And finally, here are studio producers acknowledging that it is a shared universe. Bryn Unkeless and Sue Kroll were both producers (with Robbie) on Birds of Prey. The interviewer asks them: "[Birds of Prey]'s so uniquely different than all the other DC movies but fits right in the heart of it. Can you talk to me about how difficult it might have been to balance both? Since this is an existing universe." Unkeless states, and elaborates by saying: "Yeah, it's interesting. Of course, you're working within the DC sandbox, and you want to be really respectful to the characters and to the fan base and try to get as much character detail in as possible. But at some point, you just have to focus on the story at hand and let that lead you. It's an inside-out way of doing it." The producers don't correct the interviewer that the "universe is over". They simply state that the game plan is to focus on individualized stories/characters. Just because they don't follow the Marvel Studios approach, does not mean that it's a cancelled franchise.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 01:46, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * - Which is exactly what we have been arguing this entire time 🤦‍♂️. Nowhere does it state that they are focused on a shared universe either. And DC plans on making films that have jack all to do with the DCEU, in addition to all of their "continuations" of DCEU films being completely standalone moving forward (none of which have been confirmed to be directly tied to the DCEU except Flashpoint and Aquaman 2). WB has made it more than clear that they are focusing more on individual franchises moving forward.
 * Also, it's funny how all of your sources fail to address the main issue at hand. Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 began development back in 2017 (when a shared universe was planned and before Suicide Squad 2 was scrapped in favour of The Suicide Squad). This is why we are primarily discussing post-Wonder Woman 1984 films, which you have been repeatedly reminded of. Not only do none of these producers have anything to do with The Suicide Squad, but they also admitted to a complete lack of interaction with James Gunn and the filmmakers of that film. As per usual, your sources indicate the exact opposite of the point that you are trying to make.  Dark Knight  2149  02:06, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Agreed. After seeing Birds of Prey today, I am more convinced that while the DCEU is not taking the grand story approach of the MCU, it is still an existing shared universe/franchise. Merging this page with DC Films when two movies in the DCEU were not even released under that banner is ludicrous. The DCEU still exists, there are still references and easter eggs to previous films in current movies, and recent interviews like the ones that has provided demonstrate that the shared universe still exists. The page should be left as is and we should be discussing ways to improve and update it instead.Popfox3 (talk) 02:06, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * First of all, read the thread. WB is moving in a more standalone-driven approach moving forward. The sources that DisneyMetalHead has provided are not adequate, for the reasons already outlined. And whether or not specific DCEU films receive the odd continuation is irrelevant. We have multiple sources from the likes of Variety and the higher ups at WB that they are moving away from the shared universe model of filmmaking. Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 also began development back in 2017 and are not representative of future films (and even those are standalones). The whole point has been that the DCEU holds no special WP:NOTABILITY above the DC Films, and the claims that The Batman, The Suicide Squad, and most of the upcoming films are in the DCEU is pure WP:OR. Birds of Prey is also notably a spin-off of Suicide Squad, so connections to that film are to be expected regardless.  Dark Knight  2149  05:57, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I feel like you continue to misunderstand me. What I just stated is that Birds of Prey has connections to James Gunn's film. They were added to the film, to specifically add connective tissue between the films. Regardless of whether or not the two stories have a connected arch (which we agree they don't....[i.e.: It's not a case of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame here]...), they explicitly added 'Easter eggs'/references, as just also told you. That's what they state. You contradict yourself by first saying that (which is completely inaccurate), then you state that their descriptions of adding things to Birds of Prey for connective tissue is invalid. Make.up.your.mind. The sources I just gave you within the last two days prove that: That effectively should end this discussion from what you have proposed. Go see the movie. Cheers.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:53, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Robert Pattinson's The Batman is connected - the cast of Birds of Prey discuss appearing in future Batman movies.
 * Birds of Prey is connected; it's merely told in a skewed narrative from Harley's point-of-view. There's literally scenes from Suicide Squad in it.
 * Birds of Prey is connected to The Suicide Squad 2; the producers literally added things in the movie to connect them.
 * The DCUE is not dead - the producers just confirmed that today.


 * Other fallacies: again, that's a film studio's plans. This article is about a film franchise. Not a studio. You're referring to DC Films which is a film studio label. ... all the movies have been confirmed to have connections. Also "Flashpoint" is not the name of an upcoming movie.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:57, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * And now here (today as well), Robbie talks about the future of "the universe" (her words) including Poison Ivy. It's very much still a shared cinematic universe. It doesn't need to be anything like the MCU to be a film franchise universe.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:06, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * More WP:SYN stacked on top of more WP:OR. You are in fact WP:BLUDGEONing the discussion, and I would advise you to dial it back. You have made your position more than clear. Continuing to dance in circles, tagging me every 2 seconds, cluttering the thread, and piling on every single post is disruptive and uncalled for. All you are doing is cluttering the thread and making it more difficult to wrap this up.  Dark Knight  2149  05:57, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * there is zero WP:OR in the statements I just made. Read the sources, and go see the movie. This discussion is no longer collaborative, but your persisting statements that editors who disagree with you are "Disrupt[ive]". This is a prime example of WP:OWN behavior. I just you request unbiased input for your argument. I have done so on admin noticeboards.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:50, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Arbritrary break 5: Disruption
On top of the bludgeoning from DisneyMetalHead, we now have a potential WP:SOCK / WP:MEAT situation. Above, the user showed up to take DMH's position and so far, is the only user strongly supporting DMH. The only problem is that Popfox only has four edits to their account. Half of them are replies to this talk page on discussions related to The Batman and the DCEU, taking the same position as DMH. The only other two edits are on the Popfox userpage. So yeah... this doesn't look good.  Dark Knight  2149  06:10, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:DC_Extended_Universe&diff=prev&oldid=928245955


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:DC_Extended_Universe&diff=prev&oldid=939690620

Popfox3's other two edits are adding a "space" to their userpage and talk page, presumably so that the redlink doesn't give them away.  Dark Knight  2149  06:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This certainly looks suspicious. I'd suggest waiting for DMH to respond, but if you're certain it's them I'd open an investigation. JOE BRO  64  13:24, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I made my Wikipedia account in 2016 with the intention of being an active user. However, life got in the way and I completely forgot about my account. I'm still fairly busy, but rediscovered my account a few months ago and decided that I would contribute where I could when I had time. As a fan of the DCEU, I figured I would contribute to discussions on the talk page since I am still technically a new user and did not want to make any edits on actual pages. I created my user and talk pages yesterday because I had inserted myself into what was clearly a very active discussion and I realized that I had failed to create them up to this point. The fact that in Arbitrary Break 4 I was accused of not even reading the thread (when I have both kept up with the thread/discussion since the beginning and have followed DCEU and related news for years) and now I am accused of being the second account of another user merely because I am taking the same position as them is incredibly rude and uncalled for. Popfox3 (talk) 16:19, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I have never once taken part in WP:SOCKing. has IP's that are nowhere near mine (do the work and look). you are now grasping at straws to disprove editors that disagree with you. This is evidence of WP:OWN behavior, and is inching towards WP:HARRASSment. Just because there are editors who disagree with you, does not mean that there is "Disruption". Start your 'investigation' and you'll be proven wrong. Just like - if you'd go watch the movie, you'd be proven wrong. I suggest you bring in other unbiased editors at this point. You continue to simply throw away new sources, while trying to intimidate me with your WP tags and comments on my talk-page. As new sources pour in, I will continue to bring them up here - even though you don't like it (i.e. And, it continues to nullify your argument)--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:33, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * A franchise's "gameplan" to focus on movies individually, does not render the DCEU defunct.
 * I have provided numerous up-to-date/recent sources of the fact that the franchise is still active.
 * Your arguments that their technique changes in the franchise, should combine this article with one about a film studio label is indeed ridiculous.
 * In fact, let's get an admin in here.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:35, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * There is already a discussion taking place at WP:ANI. I'm pretty sure DMH just WP:BOOMERANGed themselves.  Dark Knight  2149  18:58, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I opened the discussion at WP:ANI for input and for comment/resolution by an admin. Editors should not persistently put others down, just because you disagree with them. I have stated/defended why I was not WP:BLUDGEONing. Unbiased outlook on the entire discussion, will be refreshing and constructive.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:24, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Here's yet another source, where Cathy Yan (director of Birds of Prey) states that the filmmakers of what she calls "" are able to focus on their project, making them standalone in nature, while also being a part of the 'universe' as she describes it. This is yet another, brand new source, where the creatives behind the film reference the DCEU. Attention editors who have actively contributed to this article recently -- What do you make of this, Users:, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , & ? It seems as though it couldn't get any clearer than this, and the other recently sources I've placed on this thread. Cheers m8s!--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:26, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
 * How is this relevant at all? Moreover, why are you continuing bludgeon the discussion? I just alerted the ANI thread by the way. Drop the damn stick already. You have more than made your point, and your behaviour exactly constitutes WP:BLUDGEONING. You are very deliberately and aggressively replying to every single post, and you are in fact trying to force your POV through by repeating it constantly and burying in the thread in your comments. Everyone here understands what you have been saying and we have already refuted it over and over with points and sources of our own. Read up on the bludgeoning policy, because that is undeniably what you are doing.  Dark Knight  2149  07:07, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

No, I don't have to reply to each - but I will respond to this. it applies, because you have stated that the DCEU is no longer a thing. If you have posted to ANI - you need to notify an editor via their talk-page. No {{WP:BLUDGEON]]ing here, simply bringing forward newer sources. That's constructive. Seeing as they're more recent than even my previous sources, I will continue to share the reliable sources that arise. An evolving franchise will always have new information. Cheers.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:04, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
 * {{green|"You have stated that the DCEU is no longer a thing"}} No, the primary point of the discussion has been that WB is moving away from the shared universe model of filmmaking moving forward and focusing on individual franchises. You have repeatedly failed to prove otherwise. And to date, there is absolutely no proof that the majority of the post-Wonder Woman 1984 films are in the DCEU (including The Suicide Squad). None of your sources are proving anything, and I'm not going to keep batting them down with the same points every two seconds as you continue to run in circles. You are in fact trying trying to force your POV through by sheer volume of comments, as you have been doing for well over a week now. Your behaviour fits the exact perameters of WP:BLUDGEON. Until other users have a chance to reply to the discussion, you need to drop the stick.  Dark Knight  2149  19:21, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Related: Sockpuppet investigations/DisneyMetalhead.  Dark Knight  2149  22:43, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
 * just wanted to let you know I'm working on a comment at the ANI thread. JOE BRO  64  23:14, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I know this discussion has died down, but Jim Lee—the publisher and CCO of DC Comics—made some relevant statements at C2E2 yesterday. He talked about "the universe continuing to move on", named WW1984, Batman, Suicide Squad and Black Adam in particular, and said "We're very positive and hopeful for the future of the DC Extended Universe." I think this is the first time someone in an executive role has used the DCEU name, as well. Pre  fall  09:33, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It may be worth noting that some have speculated that he was just referring to the slate in general and was not referring to all those films as being in the "universe". That being said, the fact he used the term "DC Extended Universe" and named all those films in the same breath as talking about "the universe continuing to move on" indicates to me that he was reaffirming the existence of the DCEU. If nothing else, it shows that it would be premature/wrong to eliminate the article or fold it into DC Films. Popfox3 (talk) 20:43, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 6
Given the new quote from Jim Lee, I agree that we should postpone this proposal until we know something more clear cut. It sounds like they are rebooting Batman and soft-rebooting Suicide Squad, but keeping everything vaguely in the same universe. In other words - retconning stuff and playing loose with continuity while remaining connected, like the X-Men films. Just look at prequel / soft reboot Jim Gordon compared to his older self, haha. The Suicide Squad has already been described as a reboot as well, despite having returning cast members.

However, I think we should reword the articles to reflect it as a shared universe instead of a media franchise. The DCEU has been a lot less organised and continuity-driven than the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and virtually every upcoming movie has been described as a standalone film (shared universe or not). At the very least, the terminology should be removed from the post-Wonder Woman 1984 articles, because it implies that they are all installments in one interconnected saga like the MCU. That hasn't been the case since Justice League. Thoughts?  Dark Knight  2149  05:42, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * And how, if at all, would the DCEU be mentioned in the lead section of each article? El Millo (talk) 07:19, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It would probably have to be a case-by-case basis, but if we mention the shared universe in the lead, my suggestion would be to state that or something to that effect.  Dark  Knight  2149  09:16, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not very common to call it an "installment" in that case, most times we just say "a sequel to previous film(s)". Maybe we could just say "part of the DCEU" instead of "X installment of the DCEU". El Millo (talk) 18:08, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That seems like the most reasonable way to do it. Popfox3 (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2020 (UTC)