Talk:Defense industry of Iran

Edit warring - article protected
Following this report at the AN/I, i've just protected the article until you reach a concensus. Please discuss your issues. I'll be monitoring this discussion. --  FayssalF  - Wiki me up ®  13:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

How to resolve this edit war
This is really unfortunate but I think the administrators made the correct decisions here. Regarding this page I think that everyone here should assume good faith and try not to press their personal point of view. A few things should be said beforehand. We already know that Lobot, K1ng10v3, 70.23.227.99, 24.185.105.199 are the same user, so any contribution from one of these users will be treated as the same user. Now regarding the sentence that was the main focus of this "edit war" is as follows: "The following list consists of weapons systems that Iran manufactures domestically." I propose to look at other similar military industry pages and see how it is written there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_equipment_of_Israel has a Israeli manufacture part which says "Some of the more notable military equipment developed locally have been:" Nowhere does it say that Israel "claims to manufacture". In no other military industry page is there any implication that a country "claims" to manufacture, and it is just stated that it manufactures. Also since the user lobot has stated that my first language is not english and I don't understand what claims means, I am just putting the webster's definition here too. : 1 a : to ask for especially as a right b : to call for : REQUIRE  c : TAKE 16b  2 : to take as the rightful owner  3 a : to assert in the face of possible contradiction : MAINTAIN  b : to claim to have  c : to assert to be rightfully one's own . I suggest that the page remains in this state that it is right now and if there is a ambiguity regarding one of the manufactured products it should be noted in front of it, unless there is a reliable source that states "all" the products are claimed. I would like to see this page remained protected until this and many other disputes are settled. Happy editing Ali Soltani 14:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I feel the best course of action is to remove the entire list of equipment as it is all already covered quite well at Equipment of the Iranian Army. This article should (IMHO) focus on the manufacturing concerns that make the products, not the products that they make. I still however, do not understand why Soltani keeps INFERRING some sort of malice in the word "claim". Iran says they manufacture item X, that is exactly the same as saying Iran claims to manufacture item X. In English, as Soltani has demonstrated above, "claims" and "says" mean the same thing. The word IMPLIES nothing, Soltani is INFERRING some sort of negativity that is just not there. K1ng l0v3 15:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The course of action you propose does not make any sense, because the list of equipments and the list that iran manufactures are not the same. And once again read the definition "to assert in the face of possible contradiction" you are implying that there is a possible contradiction. That is the negativity you are introducing. And what do you mean by the manufacturing concerns that make the products? How does this differ from the manufactured products, please verify. Iran does not say it manufactures the list, it manufactures them period. Why do you insist on including an extra term? I would like you to bring an example of other pages where a company claims to manufacture an item. I don't see anywhere saying that Microsoft claims to produce Windows. Why don't you go to that page and enter claims to produce? This is the negativity that is just there and it is misleading. My persistence for the correct terming stems from the fact that this is an encyclopedia, not a debate forum. Personally I doubt many of the products "manufactured domestically", but that doesn't mean I have the right to say Iran does not manufacture them unless I have a source saying so. Happy editingAli Soltani 16:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Soltani, that is just one of the definitions of "claims", this article uses this one (which you posted above) c : to assert to be rightfully one's own . By concerns that make the products I mean just that, the companies or builders that manufacture Iran's military equipment (DIO, et al).  That should be the focus of the article, the companies themselves, not the products that the companies produce.  The article is after all Iranian Military Indusrty not equipment that is built by Iran.  Also, I imply nothing, you as a reader are inferring something, there is a world of difference. Perhaps this would not be an issue if Iran had a better track record of making claims that are based in reality.  Iran claims many things that just aren't true (Brits in Iranian waters, the Holocaust did not happen, etc...) Since Iran has such a record of falsification and outright lies, they can not be used as a trusted source on thier own.  If Iran says they build something, we need verification from outside sources. K1ng l0v3 17:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think i agree with the part that you propose that the page should focus on the companies that manufacture Iran's military equipment, because that is what is done for most other countries industry pages. It is quite interesting to note that while you mention that you are not trying to imply that Iran does not manufacture the products, you continue with "Perhaps this would not be an issue if Iran had a better track record of making claims that are based in reality." and here you are actually using the word claim in the same context that I thought you meant before. Also you follow it with "Iran claims many things that just aren't true" this just proves my point, although you say you are not implying anything, but the wording you have chosen (like in the post above) is trying to point out that Iran claims many things that are not true. It is obviously what you believe. And this is what I am trying to prevent, Wikipedia is not a place for personal points of view. Also I didn't check to see if you actually did change the microsoft page to claims to produce windows? once again unless you provide a reliable source saying that iran does not manufacture those products entering the word claim - however much you insist that it implys nothing while it does - is a POV and should not be added. Regarding your conclusion that you need verification from an outside source, I can't agree with you on this. Unless there is a list regarding unreliable sources that contains the sources in the article, you are once again forcing everybody to your point of view on the sources, that is also a mistake. Happy editing. Ali Soltani 18:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that all read Words to avoid. Uncle G 19:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that this is completely the point I was trying to make, the term claim should really be used carefully. Ali Soltani 20:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for bringing that to our attention Uncle G. In light of that, I think that "claims" can be removed.  I would be happy to see the list itself get merged with Equipment of the Iranian Army as well. K1ng l0v3 22:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I am against seeing the two articles merged, since one is indicitive of military aquisition and usage, and the other of industrial production and supply as an element of the Iranian economy. The two articles just deal with different, though related, subjects. Padishah5000 22:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to propose to make a new page (if needed) named "List of military equipment manufactured in Iran" or something like that and to keep with the idea of having this page about the manufacturing companies and technologies. Any opinions? Ali Soltani 22:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that is a logical idea, and I would support it. Padishah5000 00:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would support that as well. I also offer my apologies for my incivility. K1ng l0v3 04:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

How About the Word "Stated" Instead of the Word "Claimed"

 * What does everyone think about using the word "stated" instead of the word "claimed", such as Iran has "stated" to domestically manufacture these products. Any thoughts on this? Padishah5000 19:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Another idea
How about to completely remove the sentence altogether? The page could be re-written as Defense Production and then just the list and no sentence regarding Iran's "claims" at all. There really is no need for the sentence there. Ali Soltani 20:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats is certainly a possibility, and one I am inclined to support. Padishah5000 22:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Once you are done...
I am glad to see that discussion is being positive. Please leave me a note once you are done so i'd unprotect it. Thanks everyone. --  FayssalF  - Wiki me up ®  13:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected
The article is unprotected. I am amazed by your communicative ways and have to thank everybody for their cooperation. Good job guys. Please let me know if you need any help in the future. Happy editing. -- FayssalF  - Wiki me up®  12:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Ghadir Submarine
Hey i just wanted to make the point that an article for the "Ghadir" submarine does exist and a link should be made so people visiting the military industry page can connect to it..thanksEagle07 23:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I have moved all the content (reason: same topic/content). This page can now be deleted or re-directed to Defense Industries Organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.242.209 (talk) 17:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

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