Talk:Delta Air Lines/Archive 3

Company/History
The article has a non-standard appearance in that the first section deals with all the related business and subsidiaries first then goes on to the history. Any objections if I move history to the top and company further down. Would increase the readability and move some really trivial info down the page a bit. MilborneOne (talk) 12:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See my Cleanup section above. --Resplendent (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Apology I missed that - suggestions sound reasonable. MilborneOne (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Concur. - No objection have been forthcoming, so I recommend going ahead with the merger, and splitting off the History section. - BillCJ (talk) 10:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

DL Focus Cities (again)
Editors continue to add LGA, MCO, TPA, etc. as DL focus cities. I know that this was discussed before and the source does not make one mention of focus city just the airline it serves. Charmedaddict (talk) 22:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Until GoNavy1/98.208.234.63 can present multiple, reliable sources, this will be consistently removed.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  22:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Now, we knew CDG is hub, ha!
I found good source:
 * Delta Air Lines celebrates 80 years of passenger service

So, now we add it!
 * Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport

If no one is disagrees, I add it soon. OKAY! —Preceding unsigned comment added by B767-500 (talk • contribs) 06:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See the previous discussion of CDG. The source you added that said CDG is a hub exactly came from the DL press releases. We have all decided that CDG is not a hub. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That is not an accurate assessment of the above conversation. If Delta Airlines has now officially designated the airport as one of their hubs, then we should list it in the article.  To try and apply our own definition of what is and what is not a hub violates WP:NOR. — Satori Son 13:58, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A topic can call itself whatever it wants, but that source is obviously not an independent source. Delta can claim "We're the greatest airline ever," but that doesn't mean we should include it.  When CDG has only 6 Delta destinations, one of them seasonal and only two of them to non-hub destinations, that it not anyone's definition of "hub".  In fact LAX has 27 Delta destinations, 19 of them to non-hub destinations and and least 2 of those, Sydney and Lihue, are Delta destinations served exclusively from LAX.  Arguably, LAX is a true hub.  Honolulu, Ft. Lauderdale, Hartford, Las Vegas and others all have more Delta destinations from them.  Let's decide content by the reality of the situation and not by non-independent press releases. --Oakshade (talk) 05:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The detailed analysis you have just performed is compelling, but very clearly disallowed by No original research. Is there an industry-established standard, reported by reliable sources, that defines a "hub" airport?  Or are there reliable sources that list all of Delta's current hubs but specifically exclude CDG for the reasons given in your analysis?  If not, it is simply your personal opinion. For what it's worth, my personal opinion is similar, but similarly irrelevant to the article contents. — Satori Son 17:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * CODESHARES! By definition at a hub, people must be able to transfer and connect. At AMS, you can connect onward on Delta to India. At CDG, you can't, unless you count all the codeshare flights to Africa, the rest of Europe and the Middle East, etc. Without codeshares, CDG is not a hub. At WP:AIRPORT and WP:AIRLINES we never bought in to codeshares, so it's not a hub. That trumps WP:NOR when we're "speaking different languages". HkCaGu (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not original research. Original research would be "I spoke with Delta executives and they tell me that they only fly to 6 destinations from CDG."  No.  Flight destination information comes from published timetables verified by independent sources like Travelocity and Expedia.  Original research has nothing to do with this discussion.--Oakshade (talk) 18:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Delta Airlink
I wrote redirect which it help out reader that got confused! —Preceding unsigned comment added by B767-500 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Its called "Delta Connection". Charmedaddict (talk) 18:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

SEA Focus city
Please see discussion at NW talk page. Please do not readd until consensus is reached at talk page. Charmedaddict (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

DELTA HAS 747s
You should add to the fleet infobox a 747, because Delta now has 747s as a result of the 2008 merger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vampire31 (talk • contribs) 11:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically, they are still part of NWA's fleet, even if some are in DAL livery. i.e., if you are on a flight between ATL and NRT, the flight would be operated by NWA, even if it was painted DAL.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  12:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They may be painted in Delta livery but they are NW aircraft that are still used only for NW flights with NW crews. They should not be added to the Delta fleet until the airlines combind operating certificates. Spikydan1 (talk) 16:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, why all of this focus on operating certificates? It's a highly technical distinction. Airlines often have multiple operating certificates even when they operate as one carrier (good example is Continental and Continental Micronesia, yet one is clearly part of the other).

We need to all accept that, in terms of function, NWA and Delta are now ONE! Airport_master (talk) 19:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I second. CO And CO Micro. are two completely different airlines but their listings say "Continental Airlines operated by Continental Micronesia."  Micronesia is a full subsidiary of Continental as is NWA to Delta.  Micronesia's fleet is integrated with Continental's.  In comparison, Continental is Delta and Continental Micronesia is Northwest Airlines.  Thus, Northwest's fleet should be listed under Delta's fleet under the Delta page and "Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines" should be enforced.--Golfj21 (talk) 19:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur. NW flights are still marketed as Northwest Airlines. The only time the DL code is placed on NW flights is when they are codesharing with each other. Also, NW/DL have different call signs, ICAO codes, etc. Also, both airlines' web sites are still seperated. So, therefore when NWA.com redirects to delta.com (we can then put the designation as "Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines" designation in airport articles). Yes, NW and DL are the same but Northwest is still an independent carrier. Charmedaddict (talk) 01:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

For CO and CO Micronesia, they both use the same "CO" designation on both airlines. NW and DL still uses their own codes for their flights. However, there are "Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines" flights on both NW and DL's website but they are doing it that way for when they merge. Charmedaddict (talk) 01:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC) This isn't parallel to CO and CO Micronesia in that DL's and NW's fleet aren't integrated, and Golfj21 pointed out specifically that CO's and CO Micronesia's fleet are integrated, which they are. There aren't NW 747 flights that use DL codes. Also, this discussion is wavering from the DL747s to the discussion above, "DL operated by NW".  Ishwasafishclick here!!! 02:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, DL801/800 (ATL-NRT) and DL803/802 (ATL-HNL) are both flown on NW 747s and they use the DL codes. Charmedaddict (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

PVG
IF you look on NWA.com, you will see the Detroit-Shanghai nonstop will switch from NW 747 to DL 777 eff. October 24. Therefore Delta will still fly to Shanghai with their own aircraft on October 24th (they will fly from DTW instead of ATL) and the flight is being operated in the winter season. Thanks! Charmedaddict (talk) 02:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note already made. PVG ends September 1 (from ATL) then resume service October 24 (from DTW). However, flights are now year-round. B&#39;ham35242 (talk) 06:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Delta Connection/Northwest Airlink
I was wondering if all former-NW Airlink flights should now be merged together as "Delta Connection" or still listed seperately as "Northwest Airlink"? Charmedaddict (talk) 04:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Per NW's timetables, they still list it as NW Airlink. pikdig (talk) 04:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I think only the full subsidaries of Delta Connection should be listed as Delta Connection. i.e Comair, Compass, & Mesaba should be only listed as that as they are full subisdaries.--Golfj21 (talk) 14:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC) If we are keeping DL and NW separate for a certain amount of time, than why not leave NW Airlink and DL Connection separate? It doesn't make sense that DL Connection and NW Airlink would be completely merged before NW and DL.  Ishwasafishclick here!!! 19:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

DTW-PUJ, MSP-PUJ
I was wondering if someone can watch Punta Cana International Airport page for a couple of days? I just looked on both NWA.com/Delta.com and the flights are operated by Northwest Airlines with their own aircraft and crew. However, IPs continue to add DTW and MSP as Delta destinations with the flights are not operated by Delta. B&#39;ham35242 (talk) 03:27, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

LGA to a hub for DL
I have added information to the introduction that LaGuardia is to become a domestic hub for Delta. They have swapped landing/takeoff slots with US Airways. However, LGA is not a hub yet...wait until approval is granted and the transaction is completed. Thanks! 74.183.173.237 (talk) 20:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

fleet section - add / / for business class?
I think it is useful to have info on the business class. I like the way the united tables are orginized to include it in every aircraft, even ones that don't have business class. 204.140.194.3 (talk) 23:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There is info on the business class... I'm not sure what you mean though. The UA article fleet section table is the same as DLs.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  16:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Fleet list images
Propose to remove the images from the fleet list, a non-standard practice which provides to small images to be useful and bloats an already full table particularly on small screen sizes. Comments ? MilborneOne (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Concur. - BilCat (talk) 20:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I am for having the photos in the fleet section. I also might note that it doesn't seem that non-standard considering its found in the FL, AS, AA, CO, DL, B6, NW, NK, SY, UA, and US articles.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  00:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure 10 of 3800 articles is standard some of these images have only been added in the last few weeks. Probably not that important as I think the fleet section should probably all be removed with just a summary as it is a duplicate of the information in the fleet article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Changed fleet section to a summary of the sub-article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  13:52, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Fleet Section?
What happened to the fleet list and I can't seem to find the changing edit? --Golfj21 (talk) 01:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * removed it and the info is on the Delta Air Lines fleet page. It should say that at the top of the fleet section.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  01:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The link to Delta Air Lines fleet is the first line in the fleet section, this link was not a new addition. MilborneOne (talk) 11:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Semi-Protection
As to many recent vandalism edits to the Delta Air Lines page. Should it be put into temporary Semi-Protection. --Golfj21 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Delta new route changes
Delta has shifted some more routes from Delta to Northwest and back to Delta. I went ahead and made the following changes:
 * DL ATL-FRA to be operated by Northwest eff. November 1.
 * NW ATL-AMS to be operated by Delta eff. October 24.
 * DL SLC-NRT is to be summer seasonal.

This is verified by Delta's booking engine. If you find any more route changes, then please feel free to make those changes. Thanks! 74.183.173.237 (talk) 02:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Transcluded merger text
I really don't think the merger trasclusion text is working out - the transclusion is just a little too convuluted. (I don't know if such transclusions are permitted by the MOS or not.) I'd recommend either restoring the separate merger article, or keeping the text here, and linking to it in the NW article. - BilCat (talk) 01:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it was working until started using it for talk and not discussing it with us. Even so, if we decide that it can't work, I would prefer to restore the merger article itself.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!   15:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, what sort of idiot would use a talk page as a talk page?! I see no reason for whatever it is that this is called, templates make sense because they're on a lot of pages, this doesn't as it's only on TWO pages and will be redundant quite soon anyway. It just makes editing each individual article more difficult and causes minor issues (such as bold typeface). I think the text should be put, properly, into each article and if this brings on the end of the world I will e the first to admit I made a mistake and put it back. RaseaC (talk) 15:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Archives
This talk page is getting to be quite long. Should we archive some of it?  Ishwasafishclick here!!! 19:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

IP "prematurely" merging DL and NW flights
A certain IP continues to go to certain airport pages and merge both DL and NW's flights together. Posted on his talk page twice that both airline's flight operations continue to be seperate eventhough airport operations are combined. Can someone please watch this IP for a while? He might continue to merge DL/NW flights to more airport pages. Cheers! Snoozlepet (talk) 03:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

BOS and LAX hubs???
BOS and LAX were removed as hubs for 2 reasons:
 * 1. Delta does not enought flight capacity at BOS to become a hub (and they are reducing at BOS) and it was discussed to death that BOS is not even a focus city. Delta describes LAX as an "international gateway" not a hub (that is a big difference).
 * 2. DL lists only 9 hubs on its website: the four pre-merger hubs (ATL, CVG, JFK, and SLC) and the 5 hubs inherited from NW (DTW, MEM, MSP, NRT, and AMS). The only new hub that was announced by DL is LGA.

If anyone know of a source or news article announcing that BOS and LAX are indeed hubs by DL, then feel free to add them with a source. Regards. Snoozlepet (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

SOC Changes
I have a few questions concerning articles involving Delta and Northwest after the SOC goes into affect at midnight 12/31/09.

1. Should NW hubs be listed at the Delta page?

2. Should NW flights listings on airport pages be listed as "Delta Air Lines" or "Northwest Airlines operated by Delta Air Lines" which is really how it is going to work. Thanks! Golfj21 (talk) 00:59, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I say yes to #1, and I think that just saying Delta Air Lines in airport pages is technically correct. They are using one operating certificate, so there are technically no more NW-operated flights, just the combined DL flights.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  03:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * On the hubs, it's not Jan. 1 yet, so I don't think the hidden notes should be removed. Also, it would be good to wait for cnfirmation from Delta on what they consider there hubs to be, rather than just adding all the NW hubs here. - BilCat (talk) 04:19, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that we should wait until January 1 to make the change since that's when the 2 carriers' SOCs officially combine. On the hubs, Delta's website lists all of the hubs (both pre-merger DL and NW's) on their website. If Delta lists it as a hub then its a hub. On the "Northwest operated by Delta Air Lines" flights, it should be listed just as "Delta". Since when the SOCs combine on Jan. 1, it will be all Delta anyways. Snoozlepet (talk) 07:34, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * A few editors jumped the gun on changing NW's hub over to DL. I've reverted it back in the meantime. I would at least wait until January 1 (US-PST time) at least to change it over. Sb617  (contribs) 08:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delta's on EST - you might find the early jumpers jumping again at that time. - BilCat (talk) 08:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * On the exact timing, we need to verify how they're filing their flight plans on websites like FlightAware etc. Likely the changeover will be consistent by departure times from the same airport. And I think "NW operated by DL" makes no sense at all. If they're still branded in reservation systems as NW, then it's not completely DL. We do pay attention to branding for United Express or Delta Connection regardless of FAA designation, don't we? In such case, "DL operated by NW" may not be a bad phrasing. HkCaGu (talk) 09:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/12/28/daily28.html?ana=yfcpc. The deal is already done and went into place at 00:01 on 12/31/09 EST, let the editing begin! Golfj21 (talk) 18:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but plenty of planes are still operating as NWAxxxx today. And the flight plans have already been filed for SPN-NRT and GUM-NRT leaving on January 1, 2010 at 6 am ChST (12/31 3 pm EST)--with a NWA code! HkCaGu (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct, the "NW" code and NWxxxx will still exist unitl mid-January, but the flights are still operated by Delta and thus, Northwest does no longer exist. The apx. 90 non-painted planes will carry stickers that read "Operated by Delta". The reservation cut over that has not happened causes the flights to be NW. That will make the callsign and code DL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Golfj21 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the callsign is still NWA! HkCaGu (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

When exactly is DL going to be putting its code on NW-operated flights? Snoozlepet (talk) 19:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The cutover will be January 31, 2010. All premerger-NW aircraft will carry a "Operated by Delta Air Lines."  Delta will use Northwest's callsign until inventory cutover. Dan (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Northwest Airlines destinations
Since Northwest no longer exists as an airline, should we go ahead and merge the destinations on Northwest Airlines to the Delta destinations article now or should we wait until reservation systems/websites combine? Thanks! Snoozlepet (talk) 06:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Dont have a problem with the data being on Delta page but the NW destinations should be left as a as was when NW finished. MilborneOne (talk) 10:50, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Nothing here but praise for the authors!
Having spent some time fighting stupidity in the physics articles, I wanted to point out what a fine job is being done with these aviation articles. The information is accurate and up to date with copious references. Great work. Too bad the idiots I have to deal with will not take the lesson. Antimatter33 (talk) 05:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Fleet Section
Since we had the subarticle, the fleet section has changed from what it was originally to just a link to the subarticle to a simplified version of the chart to the subarticle charts combined. I noticed that everything is the same except that the Boeing 757-200 now has "see Delta Air Lines fleet" while everything else matches the subarticle. Now I have two proposals, either we go back to the simplified chart or we could be more specific on the aircraft (i.e. Boeing 757-232, Boeing 757-251, Boeing 757-2Q8) just to clean up the mess I believe it would make. Either way, we should have all the information or just direct people to the information.Dan (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest going back to the simplified chart...If you want to add more detail that would be the place to do it. The whole arguement to move it to its own article was because with the merger (now complete), the fleet section would be too big...like it is now. Also, it is WP:AIRLINE consensus not to list customer codes in the fleet table. Spikydan1 (talk) 13:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Support the comments by Spikydan1. MilborneOne (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The fleet article has to have a section of the current fleet, though. Right now it is just the pre-merger fleets, which are now historical.  Ishwasafishclick here!!! 22:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The subarticle needs to be kept for historical purposes only and should not be deleted and/or removed. The fleet serction already has the aircraft combined anyways. Snoozlepet (talk) 03:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Then there should be a section on the fleet page of the delta fleet in 2009 like there is for 1960, 1970, 1980. The Northwest fleet should be moved back onto the Northwest page. Spikydan1 (talk) 03:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that will work well.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  01:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Fleet Section subtable?
There is poor alignment in the 757-200 part. Maybe a |nested table across those three columns on the left side would help maintain alignment. The number of orders happens to be zero, so zeroes can be filled in for all the variations. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)/New Georgia Encyclopedia/Delta Air Lines
The New Georgia Encyclopedia ("NGE") has authorized Wikipedia to import and/or merge eleven articles, which I have copied to project space; one of these is WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)/New Georgia Encyclopedia/Delta Air Lines (which may, as I new look over it, be better suited to merge into History of Delta Air Lines).

Our goal is to get the NGE articles in top shape and merge or move them into mainspace as quickly as possible. If this turns out well (as I am confident it will), the NGE will likely permit us to import their remaining body of over 2,000 well-researched and well-written articles, which could pioneer a trend for other private owners of encyclopedic content to release their materials into our corpus. I would deeply appreciate any help that we can muster in accomplishing this. Please note that the original NGE article (linked in the required attribution section of the above article in project space) has images, but NGE is unable to convey those to us at this time, as they are individually licensed by NGE. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Looking at that article, it seems to have some great detail about Delta's history, however, it is a little out of date. For example, Delta is no longer using the 767-400ER on domestic routes, as they have all been shifted to international use.   ANDROS1337   01:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the earlier historic parts can be used, though, and the out of date materials can be fixed with a change of tense. We have carte blanche from the NGE to copy and paste as much as we want, wherever and however we want, so long as we don't make a hash of it and provide the proper attribution for the text used. bd2412  T 01:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Format Error
I don't know how but the accidents and incidents have ended up in the See Also section and I have tried to get it back to place but I cannot figure out what code has moved it. If anyone can, please try to move the accidents and incidents back to their respective tab and away from the Wikipedia Books.Dan (talk) 01:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem was caused by a bad edit here. I've fixed it. Too many cooks! - BilCat (talk) 02:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

DL DC9
LANDED SHORT AT SDF IN EARLY 70'S BROKE IN HALF NO ONE HURT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.142.151.56 (talk) 19:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Missing hub
I have readded the Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport hub that was missing from the list. It's hub status is confirmed here, a citation to which I have also added to the article. — Satori Son 13:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to reiterate what I stated above: If Delta has now officially designated the airport as one of their hubs, then we should list it in the article.  To try and apply our own definition of what is and what is not a Delta hub violates WP:NOR. — Satori Son 14:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * is the Paris-CDG hub operated in conjunction with SkyTeam partner Air France? Since AMS is a hub and in the hub information, it states that AMS is a hub operated in conjucntion with KLM. Snoozlepet (talk) 19:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there any new releases or news reports on Delta opening the hub at CDG? Spikydan1 (talk) 01:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't recall. Delta did announce joint venture with Air France-KLM but never said anything about opening a hub. The only hub that was announced was LGA but that hub is waiting for the slot swap with US Airways to be completed and waiting to be approved by the US DOT. That's the only hub i recall that is awaiting opening. I don't know about CDG. Snoozlepet (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When NWA and KLM made the first joint venture from the Wings Allaince they did not announce the "Opening" of new hubs. Instead what was seen was NWA making full use of the shared marketing and operation of Amsterdam flying for passenger flows over the North Atlantic so as to dub AMS a "Hub".  With the singing of the 2009 JVA between Delta and AF-KLM the relationship deepened to include a wide plethora of flying that was not included in the original 1997/Wings JVA.  This is seen in the releases from the time here and here where the hubs are called "joint venture hubs" to indicate the collaborative nature of the hubs and their anticipated use by the aligned companies as though all the effected flights were their own.  All Delta news releases include descriptions of AMS and CDG as Delta Hubs.  A detailed description of the pooled nature of the JVA operations is seen from the Delta side here and can be seen at Air France at their corporate site.  Think of it as the new interport hub system to replace the Pan Am/Delta Frankfort hub, Pan Am/United at LHR and TWA at CDG.128.252.254.1 (talk) 22:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I would have to agree with CDG being a Delta Air Lines hub in the same manner Amsterdam-Schipol was a long-time Northwest Airlines hub through the 1993 immunized Joint Venture with KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. To list AMS as a Delta hub and not CDG is absolutely the result of petulent refusal of reality given that the 1993 Jointventure has been replaced to reflect the conglomeration of Air France-KLM and the merger of Delta and Northwest. Air France even makes careful description of all Delta, KLM, and AIRFRANCE hubs as Joint Venture hubs given that they essentially operate as one airline on the Atlantic (North and South) as seen here. The reference can be seen on the Delta side in any press release since the signing of the new agreement as seen here. (Sorry I do not have a Wiki User Name...) 128.252.20.177 (talk) 03:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * AMS is a little different from CDG in terms of Delta service. DL flies to 5 non-hub destinations out of AMS (Boston, Portland, Newark, Seattle and Mumbai) as opposed to 0 flown out of CDG.  And that Mumbai destination makes AMS a true DL transfer point while CDG has no DL flights that anyone would transfer to as all of the destinations from/to there are transatlantic (unless someone's on a mileage run).--Oakshade (talk) 04:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Oakshade. At CDG, you can't connect or transfer to another Delta flight. You can only connect between Delta and Air France. Actually Delta only flies to 2 non-hub destinations (Philadelphia and Pittsburgh) while 1 flight is seasonal (Minneapolis, and it is a Delta hub). Snoozlepet (talk) 05:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Revenue and sales-wise those Air France flights are Delta flights just as those AMS flights are NWA or Delta flights operated by KLM...And you let AMS be listed as a hub...May one also point out that all those AF flights from "non-hub" locations for DL in the United States and Canada also have DL Codes... I suggest that from a network POV it is equally a hub for Delta as well, the number of connections that are booked over CDG is astounding. The BOM-AMS flights are operated by Delta FOR KLM as part of their Joint Venture. The flight has between the two companies over time.  This is really just a continuation of a practice that is already accepted for AMS.  CDG is a hub.128.252.254.1 (talk) 07:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

(Unindent) For several years there has been an ongoing battle over what defines a hub as a hub on WP airline and airport article. Nothing here on this page indicates that it is any where near beeing settled. This stems primarily from he fact that there appears to be no primary definition of Hub, so every user makes up his own as best as he understands the issue. But this is never going to be settled unless a standard can be settled on.

I see three types of sources of such a standard:
 * First, a standard definition of hub from an offiial government body or similar aviation authority. So far, I've never seen such a definition.
 * Second, a definition of a hub that is accepted by several leading aviation periodicals. AGain, I don;t know of one, but there may be one somewhere.
 * Third, an airlines own definiion of what it considers to be its hubs.

As pointed out above, we cannot make up our own standard ow what is a hub, as that is original research. The first two must come from reliasb le sources, while the last one ought to come from a news releaase or otther official communication from an airline. If we dont have a definition from the first two types of sources, then the only one left is the airline itself. There is no other way around that conclusion. Unless of course you actually like arguing incessantly over the same issue for years on end! - BilCat (talk) 06:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Some secondary sources have definitions of a "hub." The book Airline network development in Europe and its implications for airport planning has an interesting formula as what is defined as a hub.  It's rather confusing, but it doesn't seem CDG would fit into its definition for Delta (no Delta-Delta transfer traffic).  This goes for the same for the book Gateways to the global economy.  The New Yorker defines a hub as "a major airport at which an airline gathers passengers and disperses them in many directions, along the "spokes" of its routes."  (it's in the preview).  Delta does not gather and disperse passengers in any directions to/from Delta operated flights at CDG.  If somebody has sourced definitions of "hub" that would indicate CDG really is a hub for Detla, I'd be open to include it in the hub list.--Oakshade (talk) 18:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Delta does gather passengers into CDG for distribution all over Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia on flights operated under a joint venture agreement with AF/KLM. These flights are sold on DELTA's 006 ticket stock with DELTA flight numbers and Delta has more vested interest in the operation of these flights (arguably) than the regional connection flights which operate as "Fee for departure" by third parties that are NOT DELTA. These DCI flights form the backbones of the "Hubs" MEM, CVG, and SLC.  It is apparent from the use of the term "HUB" by the airline that Delta views CDG and AMS as very important connection points for its global network meeting all the important criteria for a hub that your sources list.  128.252.254.1 (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with the above user, with JV, flights are just like Delta Connection, instead of Delta Air Lines Flight XXXX operated by Comair, it's Delta Air Lines Flight XXXX operated by Air France, though the same could be said in reverse and we would have to say that Atlanta is a hub for Air France.redlegsfan21 (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually those are Air France flights operated by Air France, not Delta. You can purchase Delta codeshare tickets on some of those Air France flights and they will technically read "Delta flight XXXXX operated by Air France," but they're still Air France flights. Not only does Air France sell most of their tickets as Air France coded flights, but as other NON-Delta Skyteam and other partner coded flights (see Air France Codeshare agreements section).  In Delta Connection's cases, those are flights exclusively coded to Delta, not ever as Comair, Masaba, Atlantic Southeast, Compass, etc.  Those "Connection" airlines have operating agreements with other airlines too and in those cases, their flights are exclusively codes as their respective "parent" airlines' codes; ie you will never see a Delta coded Delta Connection SkyWest flight also coded as a SkyWest or United Express flight.  Comparing Air France/Delta-coded flights to Delta Connection ones is comparing apples to oranges.--Oakshade (talk) 01:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Absolutely they are Air France flights first and foremost, but from a hub perspective they serve the exact same distribution function as DCI but throughout far-off places. The AF flying and CDG hub operate under the same documentation that makes AMS a hub.  Delta, in very close partnership with Air France and KLM, funnels passengers onto these CDG and AMS flights for further distribution with extensive coordination that even results in AF and KL suggesting times to DL to optimise connections with their connection banks.  All of these tickets involving JV operations are then pooled for income and expenses for the two companies.  This really is identical in principle to Amsterdam which you have no problem with because of a single BOM flight that has bounced back and forth between KL and NW equipment and crews for years, just like the now ill-fated CDG-MAA and CDG-TLV segments that bounced back and forth between Delta and Air France.  Its all about who has the right equipment/expenses for the route that determines the route assignment to the airline (Just look at how Delta Handed Air France its JFK-CDG frequencies to stream-line the product offering to AF's higher-yield product).  They really do not care who operates the flights, the network is shared, and hence the Hub is integral to Delta's network.128.252.254.1 (talk) 03:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And how could I forget to point out American Eagle at LAX... Lots and Lots of codes on those...128.252.254.1 (talk) 04:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The issue here is the concept of complete "metal neutrality". Despite what colors are painted on the side of the plane, from a business perspective, DL/AF/KL are ONE airline acorss the Atlantic.  They all share costs and revenues.  That fact is absolutely undeniable.  So, on that basis alone, how could you NOT consider CDG to be a hub?  I have yet to see any substaintial argument here against classifying CDG as a hub that does not totally ignore this basic fact.  All that said, I think the mere fact that Delta calls Paris a hub should qualify it to be listed as such.  As has been stated here, there is no absolute definition of an airline hub, and thus I believe no one is more qualified to deem a city of hub than the carrier itself.  Airport Master (talk) 23:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hear, hear! We are supposed to by encyclopedia editors, not airline industry experts.  As I have said before, to apply our own definition of what constitutes a hub is a clear and blatant violation of WP:No original research. — Satori Son 23:57, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In regards to the list http://www.delta.com/about_delta/corporate_information/delta_stats_facts/index.jsp - Because it refers to CDG as a hub, and there is no better/standardized way to define a hub, we have no choice but to use the airline's definitions. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Can anyone find a third party source that lists CDG as a Delta hub? Spikydan1 (talk) 02:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Are any of the other hubs verified by third-party sources? - BilCat (talk) 02:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I found one:
 * Do, Je-hae. "Delta Offers Special Deals for US Destinations." The Korea Times. February 25, 2010. "Delta offers customers more than 16,000 daily flights, with hubs in Amsterdam, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis-St. Paul, New York-JFK, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City and Tokyo-Narita, in conjunction with its worldwide alliance partners."
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 08:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * With the source found, I felt that the comment message "Do not list Paris-Charles de Gaulle as a hub until consensus is reached at talk page" was outdated and not to be heeded, so I went ahead, added CDG back to the list, and added the sources. I do not anticipate that any secondary sources will explicitly say the contrary, and I feel that there are no reasonable grounds to challenge my actions. In regards to LGA, however, "Also, please do not add LGA as a hub until approved" continues to be true.WhisperToMe (talk) 10:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, LGA should not be listed in the hub list until the slop swap is completed and the hub is officially announced and opened. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 23:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Let me state my points which I hope will stimulate some thinking: HkCaGu (talk) 14:08, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * An airline can define a hub (e.g. LGA versus LAX) and override our "subjective" counting of destinations, but why should the airline be able to authoritatively define CDG, an airport with ZERO connection opportunity over what we think?
 * We don't let airlines include alliance/codeshares/regionals/subsidiaries in counting destinations, routes, fleet, "direct flights" etc. Then why do we let them decide hubs? (LGA vs. LAX is subjective--let them make the call, but CDG vs. AMS is objective.)
 * AF/KL and DL have a very close relationship, but they are not ONE company. (AF and KL are.) They work for each other, sell for each other, but they don't fly for each other--just look at trans-Atlantic routes.
 * Subsidiaries/regionals don't sell/market, so ATL/MSP/DTW are hubs. But AF/KL sell their own tickets. Connecting from one airline to another at CDG just isn't the same as connecting at ATL/MSP/DTW.
 * While your analysis appears quite sound, that sort of research and comparison is not what we do here. As encyclopedia editors, our personal judgments and conclusions on a matter such as this are irrelevant.  If Delta Airlines has decided to classify CDG as a hub based on flights with its “worldwide alliance partners”, and multiple media sources have subsequently published that hub classification, then official Wikipedia policy prohibits us from intentionally omitting that designation from the list in this article. — Satori Son 15:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And other articles as well. — Satori Son 15:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you didn't see my bolded point up there, I'm saying that deciding whether ONE route--AMS-BOM--makes AMS a hub is OR, but deciding whether ZERO connections makes CDG not a hub, is not OR. The difference between zero and one is a lot more significant than between one and 100, because we're deciding whether it is or it is not. HkCaGu (talk) 15:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I did see your earlier point and I still disagree. Your opinion is that Delta Air Lines has zero connections out of CDG, but Delta says they do have “connections” via their “worldwide alliance partners”. Personally, I think Delta’s claim is really weak, but my opinion, like yours, is still wholly irrelevant. — Satori Son 16:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If official sources from airlines include a total number of destinations, would we just bow down to it? No. If official sources from airports include a total number of destinations (with various standards for counting "directs"), would we? No. The Wikiprojects are there to make sure things are consistent and comparable from airline to airline, airport to airport. And let me ask again, do we have a third party recognizing CDG? (A newspaper article is obviously quoting the airline's press releases.) HkCaGu (talk) 18:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason CDG is a hub is because Delta utilizes it the same way it utilizes it's other hubs. Delta sells seats beyond CDG even though it's not on it's metal, the same way they sell seats on Connection carriers.  Also, who are we to say that you have to have connection opportunities to be a hub, just off the top of my head, Skybus didn't have connection opportunities and we would still consider CMH it's hub.  Also, Delta flies PIT-CDG and PHL-CDG, two non-stops from non-hubs.  We also need to know that Delta does not consider anything a focus city.  On the Amsterdam side, we have BOM, BOS, EWR, PDX, and SEA.  Which leads me to the point we may eventually have to consider this with Seattle since Delta will probably consider it a hub with Alaska as they do right now with CDG and Air France.  redlegsfan21 (talk) 10:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In regards to "If official sources from airlines include a total number of destinations, would we just bow down to it? No. If official sources from airports include a total number of destinations (with various standards for counting "directs"), would we? No." - The answer can only be "no" if we have contradictory material from secondary sources (or there is a clear way to determine otherwise, i.e. if it is obvious that an airline is lumping codeshare-only destinations into its total destination list). Otherwise, we only have the option to say "yes."
 * As stated above, Delta has PIT-CDG and PHL-CDG. Delta's hub from CDG runs in one direction (across the Atlantic).
 * In regards to the Korea Times article, I do not believe that the article is an exact copy of a press release. The author of the article is a staff reporter, Do Je-hae. If the article is an exact copy of a press release, which one is it, and where may I see it?
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 18:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A reporter might have signed it and may have changed a few words here and there, but if you just read the last six paragraphs, it is obviously pasted from a press release. Don't expect to be able to find on the internet Delta releases outside the U.S. HkCaGu (talk) 00:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I put the words from the paragraph in Google and found that they do match what DL says in other press releases.
 * However I don't know of any recent secondary sources which do not identify Paris as a hub. It seems like the listing of hubs always comes from the airline.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 11:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically, CDG is not meets anything minimum requirements for airline hub by DL! Airline should not allowed to making those false claims for fake hub because of due to false marketing and false advertisement. If the airline is tries make fake claims, we just delete it! So, I agrees everything HkCaGu. Thanks--B767-500 (talk) 01:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My English is sucks, but I looking this section DUCK. I think DL pretending CDG is a duck, but not a duck (or even a bird), haha! I think we apply those 'duck test' and DL just failing test. Thanks! --B767-500 (talk) 05:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But what are the "minimum requirements for airline hub by DL"? Airlines may define hubs differently. I don't think there's any dictionary definition of a hub that we can use to judge what is really or really not a hub. We have no way to question Delta's judgment without going into original research territory.
 * Has the original research noticeboard been notified? They need to look at this case.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 11:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I thinks HkCaGu offers intelligent insight, which is hub must offer connecting flight to own destination!!! If all connection is involved with other carrier (such as CDG), carrier is claimed Fake hub snd must deletes it! --67.207.117.6 (talk) 08:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 67.207, do you have a source that says that a "hub must offer connecting flight"? - What is the criteria for a "connecting flight"? Isn't it possible to create an itinerary going PIT-CDG-PHL? WhisperToMe (talk) 10:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to making disclosure, due to I forgots to log in. I am '67.207...' and I wrote above text. I thinks you make humourous/clever comment (PIT-CDG-PHL). Well, I don't need to providing a source because of 'hub and spoke' model is self-describes. A hub cannot be just a spoke, which is CDG. Thanks. --B767-500 (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the airline itself says CDG is a hub, and technically PIT-CDG-PHL would be spoke to spoke, yes? Yes, I am aware that very few people would bother taking PIT-CDG-PHL, and the idea of it is pretty humorous, but it's technically possible. To go against what the airline says, you need a source. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The argument for connection opportunities is a useless one. Just going off the top of my head, did Skybus Airlines not have a hub because they did not offer connection opportunities.  Well, I guess that's the truth, let's eliminate that.  I think the problem is, from a marketing standpoint, CDG is no doubt a hub, but from a "flying your metal" standpoint, it is not.  So, Delta Air Lines, Inc., it is, Delta Air Lines, it is not.  Everytime, I see Delta branding at the airport, it says Delta KLM Air France so that is about as close as you can get to an actual merger without having one, just one step below Air France-KLM.redlegsfan21 (talk) 20:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In contrast to Skybus, Delta's CDG presence is marked by its absence. Because of this AF/KL arrangement, Delta has pretty much nothing inside the airport--no staff, no service. That's why Delta's logo only appears when the larger AF/KL ones appear. The only Delta presence is the metal and crew which aren't based there. Compared to LAX, AF actually has its own counter and lounge away from DL. HkCaGu (talk) 20:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the arrangement like at AMS? WhisperToMe (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Interesting secondary source verfication
A press release from the Virgin Blue group in regards to its proposed alliance with Delta Air Lines had used Delta's press release stating that Paris-CDG is a hub. . Sb617 (Talk) 15:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Delta Air Lines, Inc should splits to 'own' article
Can we discussing idea? Delta Air Lines, Inc. should not be includes in same article as Delta Air Lines (mainline brand). Article should spin-off due to Delta Air Lines, Inc. is holding company. Support. Thanks! --B767-500 (talk) 16:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support - Yes I agree because on the NYSE it is listed as Delta Air Lines, Inc. not Delta Air Lines meaning that Delta Air Lines is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc not only that but Delta Air Lines, Inc is a Airline Holding Company. (user 71.190.57.34 didn't anything signing)
 * So, I want to recruiting your helps in fixing article. Can you helping, due to my poor English!?  Thanks!--B767-500 (talk) 06:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically we want to using template for UAL Corp., AMR Corporation and US Airways Group. Thanks for helpings!


 * Unsure Oppose - I'm not sure creating a copy-cat article just because the others exist is a good reason. You need to show that this article covers the corporation inadequately, among other things. Splits should be performed on their own merits, not just because "other stuff exists". In fact, from a quick overview, the other corporate article seem to duplicate the airline articles to a large degree, especially in having aircraft fleet lists. If the duplicate/redundant material is removed, I'm not sure there would be much left on those corporate articles beyond mere stubs. This really needs to be thought and planned beyond just "me too"-ism. - BilCat (talk) 07:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, I've found no evidence on Delta's website that Delta Air Lines, Inc. is not the actual airline, but a holding company. The website treats it all as one entity. - BilCat (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose split - does the parent/holding company engage in significantly more diverse activities (i.e., does it own companies in very different industries) than simply positioning its Delta Airlines "subsidiary" for maximum competitive advantage? If so, this needs much, much more support.  It's good to mention the corporate structure, but Wikipedia is not a shareholders' report database.   ☯   Z.S.   ☠   ......(talk) 02:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose Delta Air Lines and Delta Air Lines, Inc. are basically the same. Unless you could add new information (which I highly doubt), then there is no reason.  The holding information takes up little page and if you copy the other airline holding companies, it's just duplicate info.  In fact, I would probably vote to delete those holding company articles if nominated.  It would be ridiculous if we had Delta fleet information in 3 different articles.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redlegsfan21 (talk • contribs) 19:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose I think that to almost anyone out there, whether passengers or investors, there is no real difference between Delta Air Lines and Delta Air Lines, Inc. In fact, I think splitting the pages would cause more confusion, and possibly have people adding all sorts of information to the page of Delta Airlines, Inc that they think is missing (but is actually on the Delta Air Lines page).Iaflyer (talk) 02:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Incidents Section Addition
Under the "Incidents" section, the Oct 20, 2009 landing of Delta Flight 60 on the Atlanta-Hartsfield airport taxiway should be added. When the FAA issues its official report in the future, this section could then be updated to reflect findings in the report.

Here are two good sources:

http://www.11alive.com/rss/rss_story.aspx?storyid=136570

http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2009/10/delta-flight-lands-on-taxiway.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roussain (talk • contribs) 12:41, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Paris-CDG a hub???
Since when did Paris-CDG become a Delta hub? Charmedaddict (talk) 02:27, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know...

Check out this link. Bottom of page on an official DL press release.

From article on wifi on domestic fleet

news.delta.com

Delta Air Lines is the world’s largest airline. From its hubs in Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis-St. Paul, New York-JFK, Salt Lake City, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Amsterdam and Tokyo-Narita, Delta, its Northwest subsidiary and Delta Connection carriers offer service to 370 destinations in 66 countries and serve more than 170 million passengers each year. Delta’s marketing alliances allow customers to earn and redeem either SkyMiles or WorldPerks on more than 16,000 daily flights offered by SkyTeam and other partners. Delta‘s more than 70,000 employees worldwide are reshaping the aviation industry as the only U.S. airline to offer a full global network. Customers can check in for flights, print boarding passes, check bags and flight status at delta.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.245.250 (talk) 00:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know why they are considering it a hub because right now there are zero non-hub destinations...In the near future, there will only be two non-hub destinations. Spikydan1 (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

And on the "About Delta" page (http://www.delta.com/about_delta/index.jsp) CDG is not listed as one of the hubs. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 01:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I am thinking that it should not be listed, with no non-hub fights it should not be listed as a hub. Could this be a typo because I have only seen CDG listed on this one Delta Wi-Fi page... Spikydan1 (talk) 01:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I just went through their press releases and mostly every one of them at the bottom of the lists CDG as a hub. From what I know, after the merger the combined DL will keep its current hubs (along with the NWA hubs) and nothing was mentioned about Delta adding any hubs. I am guessing they list it there just the like NWA AMS hub. Delta is probably calling it a hub because aof their codeshare with Air France. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 02:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with removing CDG from the hub list. Even with the Northwest merge, there will be only two non-hub DL/NWA destinations. LAX on the other hand, which Delta press releases don't consider a hub, will have a combined 17 non-hub destinations. I think press releases aren't always the best sources as they can be filled with aggrandizing claims such as this seems to be.--Oakshade (talk) 06:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Per WP:BOLD, I removed it (and from the Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport article). The only sources are Delta Airlines press releases, an obvious conflict of interest. --Oakshade (talk) 18:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Some press releases list CDG as a hub, and some do not. I think that the number of non-hub destinations and if passenger can make connections on DL at CDG should be determined if it qualified as a hub or not. Cause CDG was never a hub (pre-merger or not) and the airline can't just call it a hub. I think that the joint partnership with Air France might have something to do with it but i don't know. Charmedaddict (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

In this sense, then many things should be changed... all of the DL info on new routes and policies comes from these. The company knows best, and Wikipedia doesn't have a definition for a hub. In fact, Wikipedia STRONGLY works against first-person journalistic results from being published. As such, we have to stop our personal analysis and go with the official information. DL has a profit sharing pact which allows them to split AF/KLM profits on transatlantic flights with DL. This means that all of the AF transatlantic flights are also being booked by DL (and DL is earning substancial profit). Whether it is because of the profit sharing agreement or the fact that you shouldn't add your personal analysis, CDG SHOULD be a hub. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.123.132.205 (talk) 15:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree fully with the last reply. CDG should be a hub. In all of their press releases they mention it as a hub. It has operations to secondary Delta cities in the US such as Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Raleigh/Durham where Delta service is only to hubs and focus cities (excluding Cancun from RDU). It is a US-Europe connection hub for them to connect on AF/KLM to other destinations that in my opinion will continue to grow. Passenger loads permitting, of course.--Golfj21 (talk) 19:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Though 82.123.132.205 is right about non-journalistic info, CDG really isn't a hub, LAX isn't considered a hub, yet services many more airports from LAX. CDG may be similar to AMS, but AMS has BOM, PDX, EWR, BOS, and SEA; whereas CDG has only PIT, PHL in October, and RDU in 2010. I don't see how DL/NW could call CDG a hub, but not LAX.  Ishwasafishclick here!!! 19:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Delta calls LAX an "International Gateway" but I am not sure if that is the same thing as a "focus city". For CDG, it is pointless to call it a hub. The majority of the destinations Delta flies from CDG are to its hubs (ATL, MSP, CVG, SLC) and only has 3 non-hub destinations (PIT, PHL (from October 2009), and RDU (in 2010) barely counts as a hub. By looking at the destinations DL serves from CDG, I wouldn't call it a hub. By the way, NW no longer serves CDG with their own aircraft, all of its services are all DL-operated flights. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 19:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The point is, if DL calls CdG a hub, then it's a hub, whether or not "we" think it should be or not. WP reports what reliable sources say - we don't decide what is or is not something. TMK, the only authority that determines an airlines "hubs" is the airline itself. If Delta lists certain cities as hubs, then we list them, with Delta as the source - no more, and no less. Anything else is OR. - BilCat (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * On this page, Delta lists its hubs. CdG is not included here. So, is this the definitive list? If so, why? - BilCat (talk) 20:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The hubs listed on that page are the combined DL/NW hubs as a result of the merger. However MSP, NRT, AMS, MEM, and DTW are not listed as hubs on the Delta article because DL and NW are still seperate carriers (with different codes, operating certificates, etc) and the hubs are listed on the NWA page. Like before, DL "claims" CDG as a hub because of their announced joint-venture services with AF (and CDG is AF's main hub). Charmedaddict (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delta "claims" all their hubs are hubs. Who determines whether or not thay are actually hubs? We certainly don't - we're an encyclopdia - we just report what the reliable sources say, or what the companies themselves say. Period. Everything else is OR. - BilCat (talk) 20:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Delta lists CDG as a hub on their corporate information page. . Also is listed as a hub on the Delta page of Skyteam. No change to the article as of yet.Aneah 15:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aneah (talk • contribs)


 * Well, some of Delta corporate info is a useless because they obviously doing the boastings / and chest-thumping, which is poor behavior by company. Basically, they trying to be making some appearence a bigger than really they are! If Delta try to define inconsistently and they are doing chest-thumping, we as the good editors, filter out boasting informations. --B767-500 (talk) 09:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That's an opinion, not fact. In the absense of a reliable source which states that CDG is in fact not a Delta hub, all we can do is report that this is what Delta claims, and that is done by citing their sources. - BilCat (talk) 11:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * From everything that I have read, there are a lot of opinions on what is the definition of a "hub." First let us all review some of the following information.

Hub, as defined by dictionary.com is as follows:–noun

1. the central part of a wheel, as that part into which the spokes are inserted.

2. the central part or axle end from which blades or spokelike parts radiate on various devices, as on a fan or propeller.

3. a center around which other things revolve or from which they radiate; a focus of activity, authority, commerce, transportation, etc.: Chicago is a railroad hub.

4. the Hub, Boston, Mass. (used as a nickname).

5. the peg or hob used as a target in quoits and similar games.

6. any one of the holes in an electrical panel, into which connections may be plugged.

7. Coining. a design of hardened steel in relief, used as a punch in making a die.

8. Surveying. a stake bearing a tack used to mark a theodolite position.

9. Metalworking. a die forced into a metal blank.

Next, Delta has listed this as a hub on their web site in a couple of locations, including their route map which also shows that one can fly directly from CDG to at least three locations in the US on DL flights (CVG, ATL, SLC). In CDG, DL has access to 133 gates in a terminal. Next, following Wiki lists CDG as a hub for DL List_of_hub_airports. Where else is one going to find information on a hub, aside from that airline? Is it not up to the specific airline to decide for themselves what is a "hub"? Aneah 14:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aneah (talk • contribs)

DL trying to be a spin doctor for CDG

 * Regarding to your statement Is it not up to the specific airline to decide for themselves what is a "hub" ... if airline is biased due to they want to acting like a spin doctor and boasting, then we needing to disregarding airline garbage claims. So, CDG have not any DL metal (which mention by other editors), and CDG have no DL crew base, and CDG have no fifth freedom flights by DL. --B767-500 (talk) 04:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Then please explain to me how we, as editors, have the right to determine what is a "garbage claim"? Regardless of whether CDG has DL metal, the fact is that the company considers CDG to be a hub. How is it boasting that a company considers something a hub? User:Aneah  04:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Also seeing as Delta Air Lines has a joint venture with Air France-KLM across the Atlantic they basically operate as one airline in the sense of operations much like a mainline carrier and a regional carrier. They share costs and revenues, fix their prices to match each other and coordinate their schedules to allow for maximum connections to the other airline. Just because you don't like Delta Air Lines doesn't mean they are "boasting" or being a "spin doctor." They are the the ones making the choice to call it a hub not you. 66.247.208.180 (talk) 04:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding to editor, which he says How is it boasting? ... Delta has agenda to making themselves appear as GIANT carrier (even bigger than they already). Basically, they saying, look at me, I am so big; I am so much bigger than other guys. This boasting also apparent in the 368 destination claim and they purposely withholding correct destination count (247). --B767-500 (talk) 06:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's take a look at some press releases, here is American Airlines: "American Airlines, American Eagle and AmericanConnection® serve 250 cities in 40 countries with, on average, more than 3,400 daily flights." Now for Delta Air Lines: "With its unsurpassed global network, Delta and the Delta Connection carriers offer service to 369 destinations in 67 countries on six continents." Here is US Airways: "US Airways, along with US Airways Shuttle and US Airways Express, operates more than 3,200 flights per day and serves more than 200 communities in the U.S." Guess what? All airlines do this and include regional carriers in their numbers. Your point is moot, drop it and get over it with your hatred for Delta. 66.247.208.180 (talk) 14:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Delta has every right to say CDG is a hub. There is no way for us to determine what is a hub and what is not a hub.  Really, our only source for hub information is the airline.  There are no outside sources, as editors, we are not to do original research.  Regarding the destinations, Delta sells seats to 369 destinations.  A regular passenger will still think any Saab, CRJ, ERJ, or whatever he is flying on is Delta Air Lines mainly because the regionals say right on the plane "DELTA."  The only exception is SkyWest (which interchanges planes between DL and UA) and the planes that still say NWA Airlink.redlegsfan21 (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I giving up to convincing other editors due to communication difficults due to my poor English. If I wroting correctly English (which I cannot currently), then I can wrote more reliable argument. So I stop to dealt with CDG issues for now. --B767-500 (talk) 05:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * As a compromise, I listed both AMS and CDG as hubs, but further specified that both are hubs operated in conjunction with Air France-KLM under the transatlantic joint venture. C lieou (talk) 04:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Both AMS and CDG were considered a hub before the the joint venture by Delta. Northwest considered AMS a hub for years without the joint venture and Delta considered Paris a hub for years also. Unless you can find a source that specifically states that they are joint venture hubs instead of just a hub it should stay how it is. 66.247.208.180 (talk) 04:26, 14 July 2010 (UTC)