Talk:Der Freischütz

Clarity
''Having split the seven bullets between them, Max has used four and Caspar has used three. Max demands Caspar give him his last bullet to use in the final shooting contest, but Caspar refuses. As Max leaves, Caspar shoots a fox, thus making Max's bullet the seventh and controlled by the Evil One.''

How is there another bullet if they've already used up the seven bullets? When did we hear the rules about the evil one controlling some final bullet, and how does wasting a magic bullet on a fox suddenly create a new evil bullet in Max's possession, and if Max wanted another magic bullet in the first place, and Caspar wanted him to have one, why didn't Caspar just give him one? The whole synopsis should be reviewed for clarity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.222.10.250 (talk) 12:19, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Cultural references to 'Der Freischutz'
In the Geneon original video animation series 'Hellsing Ultimate' Rip van Winkle, a Nazi vampire, sings a chorus from 'Der Freischutz' (Jetzt auf!) during the Nazi vampire organization Millenium's assault on the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Eagle.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fsIZBPMboQ)65.49.152.247 (talk) 20:15, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Bullet counting, place and time
Michael Bednarek has reversed my corrections. I can read and calculate. So I know, he is wrong.

The original specification places the opera Der Freischütz in Bohemia, not Kingdom Bohemia, and its time at shortly after the 30 Years' War, no matter what nowadays productions of the opera make out of the original. To check, read the libretto. If you cannot read the German libretto trust my translation. My correction and the reverted version differ in atmosphere. The opera is about a fairy tale not about a historical event.

The 7th bullet is the devil's, so one has to account for 6 bullets before the last. Calculate yourself and read the libretto where you find the answer. Max had received 4 (read the libretto) and used 3 during the hunt in the morning. Caspar spoils his bullets on magpies and his third on a fox (read the libretto).

I care for the German, not so much for the English article of Der Freischütz. If you do not mind the impression that you cannot get numbers right or read the libretto, leave the article in its reverted version. --Norbert Dragon (talk) 11:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If this needs to be sourced from the libretto, maybe simplest solution is to cut out the paragraph entirely?--Hippeus (talk) 11:53, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've restored your text regarding the meeting of the marksmen. According to the only cited source, Hessisches Staatstheater, "spielt die Oper 1648, nämlich am Ende des Dreißigjährigen Krieges". If a more authoritative source places the time "shortly after the end of the Thirty Years' War", you are free to use it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:37, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Nationalistic opera
I contribute to the German version of the article Der Freischütz and would like to have outside views on the delicate question whether this opera is nationalistic (as alluded to in the references).

In my understanding of English, nationalistic has a derogatory touch.

I confess to be preoccupied by Weber's marvelous music and Kind's clever libretto: Harry Potter 200 years earlier engaged in doping to succeed in a competition. Nothing of such a story would nowadays be classified as nationalistic.

So what in Der Freischütz is national or even nationalistic? Spooky fairy tales seem to be related to English castles no less than to Bohemian forests. Is love of nature and forests typical German and not shared by English? A Schützenfest, with which the opera starts, is, as I learned to my surprize.

The opera nowhere alludes to the policital or historical situation at that time in contrast e.g. to Wilhelm Tell by Schiller or La muette de Portici by Auber which deserve political characterization.

Nevertheless, immediately after the premiere German and international critics classified the opera as German. Why?

No doubt, the reception of the opera was nationalistic, e.g. Richard Wagner denied other nations the ability to love Weber's music. In his mind and statements, foreigners were at best capable to respect its greatness.

Judged from two centuries later the reaction in Germany seems to me to resemble the joy and pride over an unexpected win of a championship. Weber had composed the best opera and Weber was "one of us". This answer was unamimous throughout the 40 states of Germany. But even this ranking was not national but shared, rather, for a short time throughout Europe.

Does the German taste to love Der Freischütz as a work of "one of us" make it a national or even nationalistic opera? --Norbert Dragon (talk) 20:26, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you're reading something into this article that isn't there. The text merely states, with sources, it's "the first important German Romantic opera, especially in its national identity and stark emotionality" (this could be better phrased). The term "nationalistic" is not used. OTOH, the German article treats the opera's national importance quite extensively, and rightly so – de:Deutsche Nationaloper. Further, the term "nationalism", even "German nationalism", doesn't have quite the negative connotations outside Germany; it's often treated synonymous with "patriotism", so I think your concerns regarding this article are unfounded. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:35, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I refer to the third to last word in Boyden's quote These elements are rather naïve and nationalist in emphasis. What is nationalist in emphasis in the love of forest, peasants, rustic love, hunting, hunting horns and folk tale? The taste for the music was shared throughout Europe even to the docks of West India and also the tale did not need much of an explanation outside of Germany.
 * The question whether Der Freischütz is nationalistic is relevant because numerous German productions after 1945 have felt obligated to present the horrors of war and the original tale by August Apel with a tragic end rather than the entertaining, spooky fairy tale of Friedrich Kind with a happy end. Even the film Hunter's Bride (2010) cannot do without bloody allusions to the German Campaign of 1813.
 * If I argue that there is hardly any opera which is less political and less national, I am usually countered by citations which unanimously (whether German or foreign) state the opera to be national. But at first this seems to have meant nothing else than songs in German and a tale which one could understand without higher education.
 * Not the opera but the reception of the opera thoughout Germany and abroad was nationalistic. Amusingly it was mirrored by the Czech newpaper Národní listy (German translation in Die Presse, 1861, Nr. 299), which claimed that the whole junk, which is called „German Music“, is in fact „Czech Music“, because Weber had been influenced by Czech music during his Prague years 1813 - 1816. I do not deny these mutual influences. Quite the opposite: the first disc record of my parents was Mozart's Kleine Nachtmusik combined with Smetana's Moldau. What I find remarkable is that one boasts of the influence on others, stresses one's specific characteristics and claims as own property what one dismisses as junk in connection to others. These contradictions seem characteristic of National Movements everywhere.
 * In conclusion: I love the original Freischütz completely unashamed. --Norbert Dragon (talk) 13:11, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a venue for original thought; it draws on published material in reputable sources, and it's not only Boyden who expresses these views. As I mentioned, the German Wikipedia article treats the subject extensively. // There's no reason for feeling ashamed for loving Der Freischütz, but I think that a lot of Regietheater's Vergangenheitsbewältigung may be responsible for the poor production numbers outside Germany (last Met in 1972, ROH in 1977). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I think we agree all in principles, in particular, that original thought does not exclude thought.
 * As you refer also to the German article, it comes mainly from my pen (presently).
 * I try painstakingly to exclude subjective reasoning from my contributions though I am aware of the wide range which the sources leave for an article. I think I can condense this discussion to the conclusion that it is unclear which property in particular makes the Freischütz national German, in particular there is nothing nationalistic in it no matter how prominent or numerous such claims may be. I have adjusted the main article accordingly. --Norbert Dragon (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2020 (UTC)