Talk:Detention of Juan Requesens

Deputy arrested
I will note that I think this is the first time a main deputy of the National Assembly is arrested. I don't recall if Richard Blanco was a deputy when he was detained and back in 2015 three deputies were also arrested, but before they even assumed office. --Jamez42 (talk) 05:55, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Sign on chair
From August 9, AN members have put a sign on Requesens’ chair there saying “Kidnapped by SEBIN”, where would this information best go? Just in the main text? Kingsif (talk) 15:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

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 * Juan Requesens holding his hand out as camera is turned during arrest on August 7th 2018.png (discussion)
 * Juan Requesens video image 2.png (discussion)

Pacifist - worth inclusion?
In this interview, Requesens' wife calls him a pacifist, and it's a character trait observed in other sources. Is it worth including? Kingsif (talk) 03:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I think to include the information in its main article and that it's more noteworthy to mention how he was assaulted and injured during the 2017 protests, like many other deputies; if I'm not mistaken the Spanish Wikipedia already has some info about it. However, if more information could be added to his role in the protests, both as student leader and as deputy, or other statements, it can show implicitly how he was a pacifist. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:59, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Good idea Kingsif (talk) 12:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Title: "Arrest" or "Detention"
Question; which should it be? Detention has precedent with other political prisoners of Venezuela, and there's interest in more than just the arrest; though there's a lot about the arrest, too, so "Detention" as a catch-all would probably be good.Kingsif (talk) 21:00, 21 December 2018 (UTC) - also, why is the page title in italics and how do we get rid of it? Kingsif (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2018 (UTC)


 * - That's...a good question, actually. We could try by moving the page. I strongly support the move of the title to "Detention of Juan Requesens"; just this week Requesens' preliminary hearing was deferred, and as the date of this message he has more than four months in prison. There have been several abuses during his detention, many of which have been denounced in regional bodies such as the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. Not wanting to be a crystal ball, but it is also likely that Requesens spends more time detained. The deferral of preliminary audiences is a known dilatory tactic used by the government to prevent detainees from having a trial. For instance, Lorent Saleh had his preliminary audience deferred 52 times before being released after four years in prison. The average detention time of a political prisoner in Venezuela is around a year. --Jamez42 (talk) 03:25, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yay, italics title problem solved. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:53, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

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 * Reverol shares information of Requesens and Borges as suspects.png

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 * Packet on Juan Requesens arrest.png

Moving to talk for better sourcing
Tex that needs better sourcing. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:22, 7 March 2019 (UTC)


 * The hashtag also began to be used for things not directly related to Requesens, including announcing the national general strike that began on 21 August.
 * Article 49 of the Constitution says that 'no person can be forced to confess guilt or testify against himself". It describes the video of Requesens as being in violation of this, as well as in violation of the Venezuelan legal system for being obtained outside of court and without a lawyer present.
 * During a mass service in San Cristóbal (the capital of his home state Táchira) that was held for prayers of release for political prisoners, a group brought some of Requesens' T-shirts as an offering for his freedom.
 * BLP issue, I cannot put that name to those words from a high quality source.  Addressed best I could find from RS.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Caracas Chronicles reported that even when Requesens was briefly brought to court, he was denied the opportunity to see his lawyer outside of the hearing. Addressed from a RS.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Maduro later said that "as soon as he was arrested [...] ex-deputy Requesens voluntary gave information". This is in contradiction to the first video itself, in which the date is established as 9 August, two days after Requesens' arrest.


 * I don't think quoting Wikisource is the best option, but I wanted to leave the link of a copy of the constitution here just in case. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:55, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
 * So far, I don't think anything I have mentioned above is significant or necessary-- the issues are covered by other sources. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  23:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone have an opinion on the reliability of http://cronica.uno ? I can find nothing on their website to indicate reliability. Sandy Georgia (Talk)

Done and to do
From this version 286 edits later (I am such an inefficient editor) to this version, I've done about all I can for now. Tomorrow, Requesens allegedly has another hearing, and theoretically readers will hit on Juan Requesens, seeking information about his detention. And there, they will find nothing. I don't see why. I hope that everyone familiar with the case can read through this today (I surely left tons of typos, 'cuz I do that); after tomorrow, I hope we will start a merge discussion to get this text back over to Requesens article (which I will next attempt to improve). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  22:31, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
 * What is done:
 * 1) The worst problem that needed addressing was WP:CITEKILL.  Multiple paragraphs had citation bombs at the end of general statements, and it wasn't possible for the reader to sort our which citation verified which text.  This is an awful thing to do on Wikipedia, because sorting it out is so time-consuming, and citation bombing does not serve our readers (even less with some of them may not read Spanish). (I just wanted to summarize text from here to Juan Requesens, and was not able to do so. The sourcing here was so muddy that there was no way through it but through it, and I had to dig in.)
 * 2) The second biggest problem was a rambling TOC with incoherent text placement within short, stubby sections – typical of Wikipedia because of the way text grows haphazardly via the input of multiple editors.  A rambling TOC is always an indication of underlying prose problems, which is why criterion 2 is part of the Featured Article requirements.  Background-->Events-->Controversy is a strange way to structure articles (particularly when the entire topic is a controversy).  "Background" is not a particularly encyclopedic section heading, and "Events" forces an awkward, WP:PROSELINE structure upon the article, rather than having like content grouped together.  I hope I have worked all of the content into a more readable narrative by restructuring the entire TOC.
 * 3) Most of the citations did not include a date, many of them did not include the author, and there were (still are) unreliable sources.  And, many of the citations had dead links.  When date and author are not given in a citation, finding the original (or a copy of) the source is made more difficult. Almost every El Pitazo and Time magazine link was dead, so it might be good to avoid those.
 * 4) There was – and probably still is – copyvio.  It is NOT OK to directly translate Spanish text to English without putting the translation in quotes.  That is copyvio, just as directly cutting and pasting English text is.  I found enough of it that the entire article should be checked.
 * 5) This is an article that is about an alleged crime, with serious implications, and a BLP, and yet, it used marginal sources.  It is exactly the kind of topic that should use the highest quality sources available, which Caracas Chronicles is not.  There are still some non-reliable sources in the article that should be replaced.
 * 6) Images: holy Mother of All text sandwiching.  Placing too many images, so that they overwhelm the text and cause text to be sandwiched between images and quote boxes, is one sure way to encourage Wikipedia's readers to move on quickly.
 * What remains to be done:
 * 1) Replace non-reliable sources, which are flagged.
 * 2) Watch for Spanish to English translation copyvio.
 * 3) ALSO: why does this article exist?  At 4,500 words, it is not overwhelming, and over at Juan Requesens, there is no reason these 4,500 words won't fit.  Why was the content created here instead of at Juan Requesens?  If/when he is ever released and can continue his political career, and if/when his main article grows too large, then I could understand having this spinoff. This article should be merged back into his article, and redirected for now.
 * Wow this is surely an article I that I did not want to know it existed. El Pitazo has this bad habit of moving their links from one URL to another when the news is archived, to fix them just add "archivo." at the beginning of the URL. --MaoGo (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems like it does not work. --MaoGo (talk) 18:51, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It's a good idea, though! I added the lead from here to Requesens, but before any Detention content, his main article has less than 350 words; it can easily accommodate all of this content, plus an expansion of his time as deputy.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  18:55, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * What about copying Requesens content here and then moving the whole page to Juan Requesens?--MaoGo (talk) 18:59, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Since he may get a hearing tomorrow, it is preferable that we leave well enough along for now, but your proposal for a move over redirect is probably a good way to go if we decide on that. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

By the way, isn't calling it a "drone attack" accepting a POV that it was an attack? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Amazing, thank you! And re this direct point, these are really topics that do need a retrospective view we obviously do not have at the moment. Will look at more on the pages soon :) Kingsif (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, it's now that I've been able to read this calmly. Thank you very much for your huge effort; for the time being I'd comment that knowing the Venezuelan justice system, it's likely that the hearing will be postponed again, but it's a good call to have the article ready by that time. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

MERGE proposal
OK, Apagón means likely no hearing today, and few views on this article. I don't want to tag the article with one of those unsightly merge proposals. If no one disagrees, I will proceed. If someone disagrees, I will start a formal merge proposal. This content belongs at Juan Requesens. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:21, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's what it looks like; still a small article, at 4,800 words. His article is missing information about his election as deputy. Please weigh in; can revert at Requesens article if y'all hate it, otherwise, only need to redirect this article there, work is done.    Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:12, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Nicely done. --MaoGo (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Very weak oppose: I'm an inclusionist and I'm glad this article was created, but at the same time I'm afraid it might be too long for a user to read comfortably. I really like how the merge looks, so if nobody else opposes I don't think opening a formal proposal is needed. I'm expecting to know others' opinions --Jamez42 (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Retract, I have completely changed my mind on this after working further through the changes that would need to be made. I have found one good reason for this article to exist, as a stand alone:  .  It would not make sense to have Juan Requesens the bio/person listed as part of the Crisis template, but it does make sense to have his detention listed there.  If/when the Crisis ever ends, his detention stands as part of the crisis, separate from the person/bio.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:47, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't have a massive preference either way, as long as Juan Requesens is expanded suitably to include more other stuff should this be merged at some point. Kingsif (talk) 20:28, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Question We could include the redirect in the template, just like it currently is with Alí Domínguez. Unless, of course, we want to see the detention as an individual event during the crisis. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:42, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Will wait to see what others think, I guess ... Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:49, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

This was one of the peaks (in terms of repression) of last year, and given the overall quality of this article (thanks in part to SandyGeorgia) I tend to oppose the merge. --Oscar_. (talk) 21:06, 24 March 2019 (UTC)