Talk:Dialectic/Archive 4

Rhetoric and dialectic
The article claims that dialectic is a synthesis or combination of opposing assertions. I believe that this is incorrect. Dialectic is merely dialogue, argument, or conversation. There is no necessity for a synthesis. It is in contrast to rhetoric, which is monologue.Lestrade (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
 * Let's linguistically negate your negations: I believe that this is correct. There is necessity for a synthesis.


 * Is synthetic a removed extension of organic causality? Does this substantiate dialectical difference through space and time continuum? Is there a difference between weak and strong force, and is this model reproducible and scalable? What is the law of opposites? --Dialectic (talk) 14:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no necessity for a synthesis because dialectic is merely dialogue, argument, conversation, or discussion between two or more people. The conversants do not have to synthesize, unite, or combine their premises together in order to reach a final conclusion or synthesis. A dialectic can exist when it consists of a discussion of various unsynthesized assertions. No final synthesis or combination is necessary. Dialectic = dialogue; rhetoric = monologue. If the opinions of Dialectic and Lestrade conflict, there is no universal law that forces them to combine and result in a compromised settlement or synthesis. The dialectic between their opposite claims may never be resolved.Lestrade (talk) 17:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade


 * Dialectic has negated my negation and proved that there is a necessary synthesis in every argument by linguistically asking the following profound, pertinent, relevant, apposite, and deep questions:
 * (1) Is synthetic a removed extension of organic causality?
 * (2) Does this substantiate dialectical difference through space and time continuum?
 * (3) Is there a difference between weak and strong force, and is this model reproducible and scalable?
 * (4) What is the law of opposites?
 * Lestrade (talk) 23:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
 * You've stated and restated that through many of the topics on this talk page. You remain completely mistaken and misinformed. Dialectic has never meant "conversation" for the entirety of the existence of the English language and English Wiki uses names, not fringe ideas on replacing the meanings of English words with their Attic Greek equivalents. —  Llywelyn II   00:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Change moves in 3D spirals not 2D circles. (Sometimes referred to as "negation of the negation")
I defy anyone to explain what the hell this is supposed to mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decora (talk • contribs) 04:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what it means in hell - I imagine the same as here. An obvious interpretation is that sequences of events repeat themselves in many ways but not in all ways - hence they never return to exactly the same "place" in all dimensions but differ in at least one dimension (respect). --lifeform (talk) 05:22, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I assume the previous poster refers to the fact that, on top of the claim on being clear, it entails that spirals are three-dimensional, which they are not. The original author must mean either a helix or something more conical (e.g., the general image of a tornado). (March 30, 2009)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hlinz (talk • contribs) 01:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That wasn't what he was saying at all, but is a good point on its own. — Llywelyn II   01:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the work of User:Dialectic below, but the general idea is that her conception of the Hegelian dialectic moves forward, not backward; upward, not downward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom. — Llywelyn II   01:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

dielectric
on the top of the page it is written: "not to be confused with dielectric." i mean, who would confuse it? it's like confusing banana with panama. or bread with prayed. what do you think? Twipley (talk) 17:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (Not everyone has perfect spelling and spellcheck doesn't catch that kind of stuff. If some one is looking for a term they heard in a class, 'dialectic', which has a very similar sound to it, may be confused with 'dielectric'.)75.85.231.114 (talk) 20:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC) IABC
 * I don't see also why this note should appear, they have nothing in common (even if they are spelled similarly, everyone may deduce from the context that these are different). --Meldor (talk) 18:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I do. It's more like confusing 疬 and 疠 for readers who speak English as their second language. The sound is completely identical except for the r which the speakers of syllabary languages like those in East Asia will often drop. — Llywelyn II   00:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Confused
Well, as someone who came to the article with a desire to find out what Dialectics actually means (in the context of reading a history of Soviet Russia) I'm certainly confused. From the article, it seems that dialectic could be one (or more) of:
 * A form of conversation between two people with opposing views, resulting in the formation of a third view -- the synthesis -- the implication being that the synthesis is likely to be more valid than either original view.
 * A form of monologue (internal or otherwise) in which the protagonist "acts out" the roles of the two holders of opposing views described above, as a reasoning device (or persuasive device) to arrive at the synthesis.
 * An actual belief that there is a fundamental pattern in nature, that "things" emerge, then later their opposites emerge and finally a third alternative supercedes both
 * Something else altogether?

Looking elsewhere on the Web hasn't helped my confusion -- I fully admit I haven't looked at any dead tree sources.

Either the article isn't clear enough, or there is a genuine ambiguity about the whole thing -- in which case the article should state that an ambiguity exists. Ukslim 14:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a very precise summary of this article and of dialectics in all its forms. The article is therefore quite clear, but the subject is not perhaps easily accessible. If you are reading about soviet russia and wish to know the dialectics which Lenin supported (not Stalin), you might go to Andysoh 22:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: UKSlim I am not surprised you are a little confused -- this whole approach to theory is itself riddled with confusions and logical blunders.


 * So, your last option is correct, but just add to it: "Not so much ambiguity as wall-to-wall nonsense" Rosa Lichtenstein 04:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thesis: Ambiguity is a problem (Ukslim).


 * Antithesis: Ambiguity isn't a problem (anonymous, owing to repeated, largely US {but also some British} censorship)...
 * Synthesis: Ambiguity is a problem in some cases but not others... — Llywelyn II   23:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I feel like a data explosion lacking balancing emotional parsimony! --Dialectic (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I want to boost this. I have visited the dialectics wikipedia page like upwards of 10 times in the last year or so, each time because I want to know what is meant by 'dialectics of technology' or 'dialectics of seeing' or blah blah blah the actual only way that dialectics is used in contemporary theory. Yes, it is important that it WAS a greek method of dialogue (??) but every time that is what I have left the article with and that is completely useless to understanding. I appreciate how difficult this article must be to write and that I'm being ungrateful but please consider this a vote for a reworking of the intro and navigation box because this is currently unintelligible. 2602:30A:C078:B680:F194:FE86:B0C8:5BE0 (talk) 11:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

New Introduction
How about making the following the new introduction? I think it is clearer and far more accurate than what we currently have.


 * Over the centuries, a diverse group of philosophers has argued that discursive thought and deductive logic are incapable of grasping the dynamic nature of the universe. Consequently, they produce theories of objects that present them in too static of a state, or chop the world up into elements that contradict each other, when in reality they are one, and thereby set up false problems. Therefore, in order to grasp the world as it really is in itself, i.e., in a state of flux, these philosophers produced methods known as dialectics.


 * Dialectics, then, are methods for grasping the world as it really is, in all its dynamic intensities, but also the theories that ground these methods. A qualifying element of these theories is the idea that change is brought about through struggles between contradictory elements. For example, Marx theorizes that capitalism involves a struggle between two classes, but that this struggle will shift the economy from capitalism to socialism and then communism.


 * However, dialectics has not always meant what it has been identified as meaning above. In classical philosophy, it meant a form of argumentation similar to the Socratic Method, where an attempt is made to solve a disagreement through rational discussion. Then in the medieval period, dialectic meant logic and was considered part of the three original liberal arts: the trivium of logic, rhetoric and grammar.

--Le vin blanc (talk) 16:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fails several points at and has too much puffery to pass muster at . —  Llywelyn II   00:48, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

still more informative than what's currently there. 2602:30A:C078:B680:F194:FE86:B0C8:5BE0 (talk) 11:24, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Lead
Obviously there are lots of people with lots of opposing viewpoints on this topic (as the concept itself appreciates).

It's probably wrong to say that dialectic is only the movement from thesis to antithesis to synthesis. It's even more wrong to write the intro to the idea as though "dialectic" were synonymous with the Socratic method and focus nearly exclusively on the long off-topic Attic Greek uses of the term. That probably reflects User:Lestrade's numerous misunderstandings above and I've got no interest in an edit war on such any topic that might require me to actually read Hegel's prose again.

Could we agree to
 * A) use a base definition from some modern and reputable philosophical reference work?

and
 * B) use the introduction to cover all of the sections of the existing article? There should be particular focus on what the readers are actually trying to understand : some reference they've seen to Hegelian or Marxian dialectics and the T>A>S process.

Any etymological information is completely out of place in the lead and should be dealt with in the Greek area or in a separate #Name section. — Llywelyn II   01:36, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose: I agree with Lestrade. As he said,

-- ''The article makes a major error by beginning with a definition of dialectic as consisting of a thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. This triad, borrowed from Kant, was described in the writings of Fichte and has often been mistakenly attributed to Hegel. The ancient Greeks, however, considered dialectic as being merely distinct from rhetoric. Rhetoric, to them, is a monologue or oration in which one person speaks without interruption. Dialectic is a dialogue in which two or more people speak alternately in a logical discussion.

Further, by rhetoric they (Skeptics) understand the science of speaking well on matters set forth by plain narrative, and by dialectic that of correctly discussing subjects by question and answer&hellip;.|Diogenes Laertius, Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers'', VII. 42 -- Lestrade 15:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC) --

Dialectic is opposed to rhetoric, as dialog to a treatise, in not only in its method of presentation but also in its purposes. These purposes are quite different for Zeno, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle in ancient philosophy. Hegel's dialectic is not as fundamental, and has a narrower, more pragmatic scope. Incidentally, Heraclitus was not a Hegelian either. BlueMist (talk) 04:09, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Kant?
My understanding (probably flawed) is that Hegelian dialectic arose primarily in response to Kant, and the thesis, antithesis, synthesis triad arises with Hegel (although it's not named by him). This makes the introduction a bit odd.

I write a college paper on Baruch Spinoza and it was he who coined the term you mention; I.e. thesis, antithesis, Synthesis. Hegel took the idea and started with the individual and through the use of the dialectic showed that the state was more important. The dialectic was taken by Engel and Marx to mean a literal clash, i.e. revolution, being called left wing Hegelianism.DennisDA2010 (talk) 07:18, 19 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear Anonymous Commenter:


 * In describing his table of categories, Kant wrote:
 * in every class there is the same number of categories, namely three, which again makes us ponder, because generally all division a priori by means of concepts must be a dichotomy. It should be remarked also, that the third category always arises from the combination of the second with the first &hellip; It must not be supposed, however, that therefore the third category is only a derivative, and not a primary concept of the pure understanding. For the joining of the first and second concepts, in order to produce the third, requires an independent act of the understanding, which is not identical with the act that produces the first and second concepts&hellip;. Critique of Pure Reason, B110
 * I emboldened the main point. From this Kantian triadic process of conceptual combination, Fichte, and subsequently Hegel, formed their so–called dialectical movement of concepts.Lestrade 19:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Lestrade


 * In his book, Kant's Theory of Knowledge, Justus Hartnack commented on the celebrated dialectical method. In a footnote to his Chapter 3, he wrote: "On Kant's observation: 'Further, it may be observed that the third category in each class always arises from the combination of the second category with the first' (B 110), Richard Falckenberg makes the following comment: 'It is this "neat" remark by Kant which occasioned Fichte's Triaden and Hegel's dialectical method (Hilfsbuch zur Geschichte der Philosophie seit Kant, p. 13)." Falckenberg categorically asserted that Kant's combination of categories, which was based on the way that premises combine in a syllogism in order to form a conclusion, occasioned or caused the dialectical method which is such a favorite in the academies and universities. Don't bother looking for Falckenberg's Hilfsbuch  (Aid). It does not exist on the Internet in an English translation. Such an important claim cannot even be located today, while so many trashy books are readily available.Lestrade (talk) 20:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Problems of definition
This article seems to me to have huge problems, largely because it isn't careful enough to define what it is about. AFAIK, dialectic is:

1. discussion and reasoning by dialogue as a method of intellectual investigation; specifically : the Socratic techniques of exposing false beliefs and eliciting truth. That fits our first para well enough.

2. the Hegelian process of change in which a concept or its realization passes over into and is preserved and fulfilled by its opposite; also : the critical investigation of this process (same ref). This is alluded to, but unclearly, by the Dialectical method has three main forms para.

The Dialectical method has three main forms para appears problematic, because they aren't really "3 main forms" they are different things with, confusingly, the same name; the third is Dialectical materialism. Perhaps https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dialectic is a clearer ref; it manages to distinguish the three things rather more clearly than this article does.

The first, "Naive dialectic", appears to be an invented term - Naive dialecticism refers to something quite different.

In philosophy, dialectic or dialectical method implied a methodology used for examining and cognition of philosophical objects appears dubious to me and is unsourced.

William M. Connolley (talk) 20:00, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

NPOV my arse.
It purports to be a reflection of the real world created by man.

"Purports" is derogatory, and obviously so. This could be written a thousand other ways to not be an obvious bag of shit about it. 76.69.155.96 (talk) 22:12, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

A grave punctuation error in the source
"The mystification which dialectic suffers in Hegel's hands, by no means prevents him" This is the punctuation in the source. May it be corrected?--Adûnâi (talk) 00:55, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Hegel on lead
Hegelianism mentioned on lead without any introduction to Hegel. IW. (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

2020 merge proposal
There have been several former proposals to merge Thesis, antithesis, synthesis to here, including Talk:Dialectic/Archive 3, Talk:Thesis, antithesis, synthesis and Talk:Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. All seem to have failed through inaction rather than disagreement any current objections, as the proposals (dating back to 2006) seem reasonable. Klbrain (talk) 09:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)


 * the trouble is there is so much bollox on the TAS page, as people attempt to make sense of F and H's "thought", which isn't possible as it is incoherent. But, fundamentally, I agree with the idea of merge William M. Connolley (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't review the relevant talk page discussions, but if there have been no objections to the idea that Thesis, antithesis, synthesis is "redundant", then why not just redirect the page to Dialectic and remove the circular links from here back to it? To me, saying the page is "redundant" suggests a simple redirect, with no need to merge anything. Biogeographist (talk) 22:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree, seems like that's the best course of action. I've set up the redirect. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 08:07, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Categories
I have reverted (twice: most recently here) what I consider to be overcategorization. If someone wishes to restore the added categories, please give a justification for each added category here on the talk page, to establish consensus. Thanks, Biogeographist (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I undid your reversion and added justification for why I believe it should be on this page. Duality in categorical logic is widely accepted to be closely related to dialectics.  This is a way of interpreting the duality between syntax and semantics in theoretical computer science, for example.  I am not claiming, nor are any categorical logicians, that dialectics are merely adjunctions, but rather, that this is the right notion of a dialectic in this formal setting.  Unlike the other interpretations of dialectics in more old school logics, that of adjunctions is completely formal and makes quite a lot of sense if you become aquainted with it.  This is not really worked out fully on wikipedia, but it is out in the literature.  For more references, if you question the rigour or justification of these claims please visit the following two nlab pages which give a nice little summary https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/adjoint+modality https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Aufhebung 192.76.8.78 (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That's a separate issue. I have no opposition to what you added, which I moved to, though I wasn't previously familiar with it. The issue here is the long list of categories that another editor added. Those would require further justification. Biogeographist (talk) 19:53, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Cool! Unrelated, but I noticed you edited Bunge's page, who criticises the notion of dialectic.  But his wife is a category theorist, so I wonder how she gets along with Lawvere 192.76.8.78 (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * In Marta's (his wife's) appendix to Mario Bunge's memoir, Between Two Worlds (Springer, 2016), she said that Mario was disappointed for a long time that she went into mathematics instead of philosophy. LOL! Mario's criticism of dialectics is about its inapplicability to natural science of the real world, contra the claims of some Marxists. He appreciated the formal sciences and used some of their tools, but he argued that not everything in them is applicable to the real world. Biogeographist (talk) 20:05, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Whole Article
A lot of this article is not NPOV and is awkward to read and pretentious. Different sections claim to have proven each other wrong.
 * Still true. --Cornellier (talk) 03:37, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Chinese dialectics
I think there should also be a section on Chinese dialectical philosophy, both from classical Chinese philosophy (hundred schools of thought) and also within certain schools of Chinese Buddhism. The dialectical concept of the "unification of opposites" is quite important in virtually every school in Chinese philosophy, and can be symbolised by the Yin-Yang symbol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.250.170 (talk) 18:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. Western dialectics was the only philosophical attempt to grasp the huge explanatory power of yin yang. Roberto Lopez (talk) 20:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)


 * William M. Connolley (talk) 20:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)