Talk:Dinkha IV

Should this page be renamed as "Dinkha Khananya"?
Is this page in violation of WP style? Since Mar is simply a title ("Bishop" or "Lord"), the naming of this page appears to be in violation of naming guidelines, specifically, of WP:Naming_conventions_(clergy), which states 'the title "Mar" is not used in the article name unless necessary for disambiguation.' However, given the numerals after his name, are there additional considerations? Or should this page simply be renamed? -- Presearch (talk) 17:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure It seems like it should be moved, but I'm no expert on Syriac naming conventions. You should probably post to the relevant WikiProjects. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:00, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

(copied from user page) Dear Werldwayd, do you have any insights about what should happen over at Mar Dinkha IV, where someone (me) has asked HERE whether the page should be renamed as simply "Dinkha Khananya" (i.e., the person's original full name), in order to conform with WP:Naming_conventions_(clergy)? I see you contributed to the page a while back. I'd encourage you to contribute your thoughts on the talk page. Many thanks -- Presearch (talk) 20:56, 3 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I actually agree with you about Mar (which is just a title. But family names are not actually good practice. I think just Dinkha IV (without Mar, but adding the Fourth as IV) would be the best. werldwayd (talk) 21:04, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, and thanks for your quick response, but I'm a bit confused. How are family names bad practice (is there a Wikipedia guideline???)? Also, are you saying that the "IV" is part of his family or birth name, rather than part of his ecclesiastical name? (I'm essentially ignorant about how the relevant ethnic naming conventions may operate...). Sorry I'm not quicker on the uptake, and thanks again for your help. - Presearch (talk) 21:22, 3 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually there is no concensus on names of Eastern Patriarchs. But I have double checked Syriac Patriarchs and they do carry family names. Syriac Catholic Patriarchs: Ignatius Joseph III Yonan and Ignatius Peter VIII Abdalahad. Maronite Patriarchs, also Syriac, use full family names Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir and Mar Bechara Boutros al-Rahi. Also Assyrian Patriarchs Shimun XXII Paulos and Shimun XXI Benyamin. I was depending on my knowledge of Armenian Patraiarchs without first name like Aram I and Karekin II, but I stand corrected. Use family names. Now I am momore convinced. As for IV it is related to Dinkha not family, so Dinkha IV or Dinkha IV Khananya is most acceptable. werldwayd (talk) 21:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Update: Following the above talk, werldwayd moved the page to rename it as "Dinkha IV Khananya" (change log: "as per the guidelines of Syriac names"), and then a few hours later, 虞海 (Yú Hǎi) moved it back to "Mar Dinkha IV" (change log: "there's some trouble here because it's a special case: will you also move Pope Benedict XVI to Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger per the guidelines of Latin or Italian names?").

Questions: Many thanks -- Presearch (talk) 15:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (or @anyone): Did you read the naming guidelines for Syriac bishops? If so, why is this a special case that should be exempted from those guidelines?
 * @werldwayd (or @anyone): Please explain to us your reasoning and your understanding of each part of the name, and whether each part is derived from the person's original (pre-ecclesiastical) name, or is part of their ecclesiastical title. That is, what does the "IV" stand for, and did it arise as part of the ecclesiastical name, or earlier? And what dothe "Dinkha" and "Khananya" stand for? And why was "Dinkha IV Khananya" your preferred naming for the page?


 * I'm sorry that I didn't realize there was already a discussion here, and moved it back. ––虞海 ( Yú Hǎi )  ✍  16:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * ->Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (clergy). ––虞海 ( Yú Hǎi )  ✍  15:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Patriarch Dinkha IV or Mar Patriarch Dinkha IV is correct. ––虞海 ( Yú Hǎi )  ✍  15:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Well I'm not an expert (nor familiar with the traditions) but since he is indeed a Patriarch then the guidelines for Patriarchs obviously apply. They read: "For patriarchs, whether the Ecumenical Patriarch, Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, or otherwise, use the format "Patriarch {episcopal name} {ordinal if more than one} of {episcopal see}". Do not use a patriarch's personal name; e.g., use Patriarch Nikon, not Nikita Minov" (they also say if there's a well established English usage, that should be used instead).


 * Based on that, it seems to me the page name perhaps should be "Patriarch Dinkha IV of the Assyrian Church of the East". This would seem to be the correct page name if "Dinkha" counts as "{episcopal name}". Oddly, however, I don't see any Dinkha I, II, or III at the list of Patriarchs HERE, though there is a "Shemʿon XIII Dinkha (1681-1700)," in the midst of a group all named "Shemʿon". Does anyone understand what's going on here? Who here has expertese in this tradition (Werldwayd, how would you interpret this based on the Armenian tradition?)? -- Presearch (talk) 20:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Since no-one has responded to the above suggestion in about 4 days (despite doing other edits), I propose to go ahead and move the page to "Patriarch Dinkha IV of the Assyrian Church of the East". It might not be perfect, but it seems that the current inclusion of "Mar" in the page name is obviously in conflict with style guidelines. If no one makes a better suggestion in about a day, I'll move the page. -- Presearch (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * How about "Patriarch Dinkha IV of Apostolic See"? ––虞海 ( Yú Hǎi )  ✍  05:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, "Apostolic See" seems inappropriate, as it does not refer to the region. According to what is linked from the guideline quoted above for "{episcopal see}", "{episcopal see}" would seem to involve a proper noun that identifies the region or community. Here is a quote from the page for Episcopal see: "the word 'see'.... usually corresponds to a diocese, as in the expression 'within the see of Ebbsfleet'[4] and 'built within the see of the bishop of Worcester'.[5] But it is sometimes given a wider significance, referring for instance to an area under patriarchal authority.[6]" Thus I believe that the phrase "Assyrian Church" should be included in the page name. To me it seems most straightforward to simply use the full phrase: "Patriarch Dinkha IV of the Assyrian Church of the East." -- Presearch (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Who consecrated him to the episcopate?
Who consecrated him to the episcopate? --Jaques O. Carvalho &#9756; 23:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Biography Shimun. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Please insert it at this article! --Jaques O. Carvalho &#9756; 04:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Done It already is in the article: "Responding to popular demand, Catholicos-Patriarch Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII consecrated Khananya as bishop on 11 February 1962, in the church of Martyr Mar Gewargis in Tehran." —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:48, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Please insert it at template, like Roman Catholic bishops! To be possible track the episcopal lineage! --Jaques O. Carvalho &#9756; 06:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Funny you mention that I've been meaning to make a navbox for the Assyrian Church of the East, but I haven't gotten around to it. I started a few hours ago, but gave up. I may still. In the meantime you can do it... Anyone can edit Wikipedia. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I inserted it! --Jaques O. Carvalho &#9756; 07:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: uncontested move. DrKiernan (talk) 21:14, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Patriarch Dinkha IV of the Assyrian Church of the East → Dinkha IV – No other Dinkha IV to be confused with.  K a t h o v o  talk 18:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - unnecessary disambiguation 212.113.145.253 (talk) 00:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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