Talk:Dreidel

It is not exclusively Jewish, at least nowadays
In Portugal, in the first half of the 20th century (that I know) it was a popular children's game, called rapa (shave), tira (take), põe (put) e deixa (leave [alone]). the Portuguese Jews were driven out of the country in the 16th century. Even if the game was originally Jewish, it got adopted by other cultures which may keep no memory of the origins.188.37.65.167 (talk) 21:20, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

And I read somewhere that it was based on a German game called totem or something. I'd like to see more of the history of the game here. Enfascination (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is a particularly Jewish game either. It is played in France and is calles "toton". Look at this famous 1735 painting by Chardin, "l'enfant au toton" (the child with the dreidel:

http://www.marcelinpleynet.fr/files/cache/c028f006fae4a3fe067b6a366f2df9f4.jpg

Oh well, I had noticed already that popular traditional stuff in Northern and Central Europe, like "latkes" and chocolate coins covered in gold paper are believed to be somehow Jewish in the US. 82.121.30.236 (talk) 13:10, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Untitled
The "braille dreidel" should be deleted or made a seperate article. It is an interesting tangent but it does not deserve that much article space relative to the major content. Lophoole 23:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)lophoole

yes, merge with sevivon. it's the same thing :) and I almost added the song to "dreidel". Amoruso 04:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

obviously a merge if it's just two names for the same object. FiveRings 00:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

it should be merged, as all of the information on the Sevivon page applies to dreidel, too. Tamajared 20:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Image
Why is the main image for this article a Braille dreidel? I mean, it's an interesting picture, and could still be used on the page, lower down maybe. But I'd think for the main picture on the article, a standard traditional dreidel would be more appropriate. --Lurlock 21:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think so, too. Well Drawn   Charli  e  10:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

don't forget abraham

Also, The dreidel is different in Israel and outside israel. the Shin is replaced with a Pay because a great miracle happened HERE (Po) Can someone add this info?

Worth getting this page semi-protected?
I just put a comment on here about vandalism and as I was doing so Ukt-zero took it (the vandalism, not my comment) out :) - my original comment is now irrelevant so I've taken it out. I was wondering though if we should ask for this page to be semi-protected? Looking at the history there seems to be a lot of vandalism.  Any thoughts?  Groovycathers 22:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think definately. Well Drawn   Charli  e  10:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Game Rules
The rules of the dreidle game should be included in this article. ~Raz613

Seconded
Without the rules, this article is worthless. So there's the thing itself and a song -- but what on earth do you do with it, and what is it for? This "article" explains NOTHING! I'm left with more questions and NO answers. A pointless, pointless "article".

Poor Heading?
The heading : The More Well Known Lyrics should be changed as the lyrics that follow are from an entirelly a different song. Perhaps: Lyrics to Another Popular Hanukkah Song: Dreidel,Dreidel, Dreidel.

--Mrlizardy 15:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

in popular culture
I think removing this section was a mistake. I know there's an army of editors out there declaring war on trivia, but I believe showing that the dreidel exists in popular culture at all is significant. And I can't think of a better place for this kind of information. From the wikipedia style guide on trivia: "Such sections should not be categorically removed". But that's exactly what happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.55.174 (talk) 06:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

It's exactly like you said: people with some stupid agenda or with what appears to me to be a misunderstanding of wikipedia policy go around and remove "trivia" sections. Wikipedia doesn't like trivial items but that doesn't mean a trivia section, by whatever name, is inappropriate if the contents is otherwise appropriate (i.e. noteworthy and related to the article). While some of the pop. culture sections get filled with trivial items, that isn't an excuse to wholesale delete them on sight. In many articles there is no good way or need to add popular culture information within the rest of the article, and a seperate section is fine, imo. I'd readd it untill someone can justify the actions here or point to the poilcy that informed their decision.--Δζ (talk) 06:16, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Origins
Something must be said about the origins of the Dreidel, after all it did come from somehwere! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.4.119 (talk) 09:22, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Evan1975 (talk) 21:13, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Proved to be an unfair game
Source

Just found this article which shows that this game is unfair. According to Robert Feinerman, “An Ancient Unfair Game,” American Mathematical Monthly 83:623-625 the further you are from the first player the lower your chances of winning are.

If someone is able to access the American Mathmatical Monthly and edit this page accordingly I think this would be of benefit.95.145.16.69 (talk) 18:31, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Are dreidels themselves expected to be fair? Dice are expected to be fair, but dreidels are not dice and, to judge by the song, there is the expectation that they are hand made. That would lead to irregularities that affect fairness. I collect dice, but have only a single dreidel, a wood one similar to the top picture on the page currently. The one I have is clearly not precision made and not fair. It is not as irregular as the weighted dice I have, but still irregular. --Elijah (talk) 01:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Are these the "official" rules?
I live in Israel and we always had different rules, depending which magazine you read or what your parents feel like having you do. Another dreidel game involves spinning it and singing the dreidel song ("Sevivon, sov sov sov, Hannukah hu chag tov...") trying to finish the song before it falls on its side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.14.108 (talk) 00:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

A question
Is the dreidel strictly an Ashkenazi cultural item? Is it present in other Jewish cultures? Komitsuki (talk) 15:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130523082110/http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/55918/brooklyn-man-wins-dreidel-spinning-contest to http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/55918/brooklyn-man-wins-dreidel-spinning-contest
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060905063807/http://www.myjewishlearning.com:80/holidays/Hanukkah/TO_Hanukkah_Home/Dreidel.htm to http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Hanukkah/TO_Hanukkah_Home/Dreidel.htm

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Dreidel
Regarding the second paragraph, are the order of the letters and the acronyms out of order? The letters Shin (there) and Po (here) appear at the front of the acronym but are listed last. Perhaps it is as a result of how the phrase is translated. SquashEngineer (talk) 14:01, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Incomplete rules
The article describes only what happens in each round. But when does the game end? When all players except one have no pieces left? --Austrian (talk) 12:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

shin in Israel?
The article says that "In Israel, the fourth side of most dreidels is inscribed with the letter פ‬ (Pei) instead [of shin] [...] Some stores in Haredi neighborhoods sell the ש (shin)‬ dreidels." I am not sure if there is something one should read something between these lines, such as "Haredi Jews do not believe that a miracle happened *here*, only *there*", or perhaps "Haredi Jews have a different interpretation of these letters"

In any case, I think the sentence about Haredi stores is misleading. The picture in the article, taken in Mahane Yehuda Market show dreidels with a "shin", and I don't think this is a haredi neighborhood.

--Austrian (talk) 12:23, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Ancient Levantine Jasper Dreidel Incised from one to four with cuneiform numerals on all of its four side quadrants respectively
The Dreidel is apparently not an Irish invention, here is a unique Dreidel specimen that has been dated by Professor Lambert to early – mid 2nd millennium BCE.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7n7k273kb9nfnuy/IMG_6048.jpg?dl=0

Mos225 (talk) 20:07, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Can you bring a source for this other than Dropbox? Ar2332 (talk) 10:22, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi there,

Dropbox is not a source, I tried uploading some photos but I was unable to, here is the link to professor Lambert’s write up regarding this piece.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fpie3mkedb5j79/IMG_2714.JPG?dl=0

Professor Lambert has dated this piece not later than the mid 2nd millennium before the common era, hope this helps.

About Professor Lambert: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_G._Lambert — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mos225 (talk • contribs) 09:01, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I can upload these images to Wikimedia Commons for you, assuming there are non copyright issues involved (i.e. you own copyright to the images). Is this the case? If so, I can upload and I would credit you as author. Ar2332 (talk) 11:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes please, thanks, I’d appreciate it, I’m the owner of the piece and these are my photos — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mos225 (talk • contribs) 11:51, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * OK. I uploaded the first image here. I gave it the "Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International" license which is the default for images uploaded to Wikimedia - please confirm that this license is OK. As for the second image, the Dropbox link no longer works. Ar2332 (talk) 18:12, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Ok.

Sorry about The second photo, here is the additional link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ht2l6lsnvofz6zu/IMG_2714.JPG?dl=0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mos225 (talk • contribs) 11:12, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * OK. Second file is uploaded too Ar2332 (talk) 13:01, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Now I added the first image to the Dreidel article page Ar2332 (talk) 13:07, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Mos225 (talk) 10:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Mos225 (talk) 10:26, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Here is a video I just made where you can see the actual size and how small it really is, it is identical in size to an ordinary modern Dreidel, it is far smaller than any ancient Mesopotamian or Egyptian spinning top. https://www.dropbox.com/s/o2kxsi4sehkumwy/IMG_6178.MOV?dl=0 Apparently, the hole on top was preserved for the insertion of a wooden or bone peg, It would’ve been very impractical to carve the peg out of the same piece as this one is made out of stone and would therefore easily break. Mos225 (talk) 14:46, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Should I try to upload the video? (No guarantees it will let me upload something that big, but I can try) Ar2332 (talk) 15:26, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, u you can try, thanks, but I’m not sure if Wikipedia supports videos, If there’s anything else that would be helpful for the page please let me know  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mos225 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Video uploaded here. Ar2332 (talk) 14:42, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Ar2332. Also, when clicking on the Dreidel image the Lambert file is not present on the same info page, would it be possible to add the Lambert write-up image to the same page? Thank you Ar2332. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mos225 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to put the two pictures on the same page, I don't think it's possible. However, in the "description" below the image, I added a link to the second image. Ar2332 (talk) 06:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh ok, no problem, thank you so much for everything Ar2332 Mos225 (talk) 09:24, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Ar2332, I put together this photo and thought of adding it, I appreciate it, thank you. https://www.dropbox.com/s/64vwmft66pr9tg2/Photo%20Jan%2001%2C%2019%2031%2003.jpg?dl=0 Mos225 (talk) 17:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Uploaded here. Ar2332 (talk) 13:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks again! Mos225 (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

3D model?
Does the (rather poor) 3D rendering really add anything to this article? I suggest it be removed. 24.165.142.140 (talk) 03:40, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Is a Dreidel a 4-sided die?
User:Alexcweiner keeps adding to the Four-sided die die page that "In Jewish culture, a dreidel represents a four-sided die." I look here on the dreidel page, and I see no mention of it being a die or dice. This user also supplies no source to back up this claim. Is he correct? 207.229.139.154 (talk) 06:24, 15 January 2023 (UTC)