Talk:Drum kit/Archive 1

Electric Drumkits
This article should atleast mention the evolution of drums into electric drum kits and also have a "See Also" link to the electric drum kit article. --78.86.117.164 15:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If such an article already exists, then it is not necessary to discuss these things in this article. If you want a link, put one in. TheScotch 09:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Article Overhaul
This article seems really inadequate, considering the importance of drum sets in popular music. For example, there is no discussion of drum set history, how the drum set varies from genre to genre, or even what purpose the drum set plays in music. I think this article needs a complete overhaul. What do you think? I’d be willing to take on the project.--Cspencer 02:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I definately agree. I have some knowledge but I don't think it would be enough to do this. If you have the knowledge, go for it! - Mark 17:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The following link has some excellent info on the history of the drum kit: --Lowman 02:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Volume of drums
Can someone explain why in Jazz music the drums are often recorded at a very low volume, much lower then what one would hear even in a simple acoustic setting where all the instruments were the same radius away from you.
 * Because people are not interested in hearing the drums. They want to hear the soloist! Also in a live situation, its very difficult to control the volume of the drums/drummer (ie drummers usually play too loud). In the recording studio, drummers are hidden away behind baffles to reduce the sound and the recording engineer can then put just the right amount of volume onto the record--Light current 19:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

That is by all means the hugest blasphemy I have ever heard! In so many cases (especially the be-bop era of jazz) the drummer is the lead for the group, doing most of the arranging and coordinating for the remainder of the instruments. The reason drums come in so low in jazz sometimes is most recordings are done live and the musicians are spaced according to power behind instrument and how they fit in the mix of the band. To say most don't want to hear the drums is just plain ignorant. That means Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Baby Dodds, Chic Webb, Jack DeJonnette, Dennis Chambers, Lenny White, Billy Cobham, and many more drummers really had no pull and were just filler in the music they played to. I don't know where you got your intel from, but I think you need to slap the person who fed you that misleading commentary. The rhythm behind jazz in the most would not be possible without percussion. Monkeyfist 20:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC) Monkeyfist

Names of various drums/cymbals
i love drums they rock Why is the snare in a snare drum called a "snare"?
 * Because it has wire 'snares' underneath that rattle against the lower head to give that rattly sound. THe snares can be moved away from the head to deactivate the feature - then you get a plain side drum sound--Light current 19:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the source of the name "hi-hat"?


 * I'm not a drummer, but I think that snares are so-called because it's a slightly onomatopeiac term. I think. The hi-hat looks a bit like two of those chinese field worker's hats put together as well, and it's high because it's off the ground? I don't really know, I'm just guessing... Dragonfly888 20:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I'm wrong, I asked my drummer and he said that snare drums actually have little things called snares in them that makes the sound. He didn't know why hi-hats were called hi-hats. Dragonfly888 17:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They are called this because of the way they look when opened. Originaly high hats were on the ground. The top cymbal was taped or attached the the drummers foot and he "clicked" them together by lowering his foot up and down. -Mikeh0303

'Sock' cymbal to describe hi-hat
Anyone know where the term 'sock' cymbal (another name for hi-hat) comes from, and is it anything to do with the low boy cymbal mentioned no the page. ie was it placed and operated near the feet(socks) of the player?--Light current 19:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Just found this on hi-hat page

''The hi-hat stand was developed from the low-sock by Gene Krupa in collaboration with Armand Zildjian. The low-sock was a pedal which simply clashed together a pair of similar crash cymbals. They were mounted next to the pedal, so playing them with a stick was not possible.''

--Light current 19:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The drum kit components image
The drum kit components image is pretty big, and it's kind of distracting from the text in the other drum component articles too ('cause its squeezing things, especially with the second images between). Is it possible to maybe cut the 6 major componenets in half or so, so that we have 1-3 (bass to snare) listed above 4-6 (toms and overheads)? I'd do it myself if I knew how to. Shadowolf 03:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

is there any way of changing the image title? while itis technically a drum kit, it needs to be specified as a 5-piece drum kit. Kiran90 13:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Links
This article is getting bogged down with external links. When I have time I will review them.  Q  Q 15:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. There are a lot of pointless links.  However, there are a lot of useful sites left off the list.  Is there precedent for linking to pages of links compiled on other websites?  For example, here is the most comprehensive list of drum manufacturers I know of.--Cspencer 17:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Notation
User:Timemachine has been adding sections on drum set notation to such articles as Music notation. I'm a bit skeptical, but maybe the editors of this article can help. Is there in fact any standardized notation for drum sets? I realize that most drummers don't use music at all, but for symphonic bands and the like they have it. I was always under the impression that it was pretty much ad hoc. Please advise. Also, is there such a thing as an anti-accent? &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 23:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I know there isn't a specifically defined system for drumset notation. However, there are certain conventions.  I reviewed over the notation list and everything seems right.  You'll come across scores with different notation, but the majority will be as the article describes.  As far as anti-accents... they exist but I've never heard them called by that name.  They're usually called ghostnotes.  The idea is that the note is played so softly it's barely audible.  I think there needs to be some sort diagram showing common notation.  Would this be appropriate?  I could put one together.--Cspencer 01:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've thrown together a graphical representation of the information that was in textual form, as I understand it, in the article using Sibelius. Most of the text has been left in the alt text of the images. There are a few remaining issues, however. First, I botched together the "cross-in-circle" notation using Fireworks, since my version of Sibelius (2) doesn't have that functionality. I believe this is possible in version 4, if not 3. I've uploaded the source to http://www.big-blue-fish.com/misc/drumkit_notation.sib if anyone would like to make this adjustment. I'm also unsure if I've represented brush sweep notation with the right noteheads, and was completely unable to find functionality for any of the anti-accents. When searching the rest of the internet, I also noted that almost every documentation was different, and have made this a little clearer in the article. I was wondering, though, if there is some particularly authoritative source that has a particularly popular scheme. I don't know if drummers really have manuscript books, but if they do, do these published works use similar/identical conventions? BigBlueFish 15:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Notation for drummers varies from composer to composer. And one of the main jobs of a drummer is decipher what the composer is telling you to play. Yes there are drummers who don’t use music at all, they are mostly from rock groups but most drummers who have any training at all know how to read drum charts. To correct Wahoofive’s impression that most drummers “ad hoc”: there are times when drummers have to play exactly what is written. This is mostly for rock operas suck as Footloose, Tommy, or Rent where every beat  is written out, or movie scores where a drummer is required. Big band  or stage band drummers also have music, but are often more liberal for sticking to what it says. Some composers realize this and  write a chart as slashes ( which means improvise to a drummer) with the shots written on top of the bar (shots being notes that other interments play that the composer want s to emphasize so tells the drummer to play with them). Jazz drummers also make use of the fake book which has no rhythm parts in the cart, just the chord changes and the melody, crating another instance where a drummer can improvise. Rock star drumming is the hardest to explain because the are such a variant of rock drummers; some can read and some can’t. but most rock drummers already know what there going to play when they perform; they have all there parts memorized. Drumming chart’s notation is pretty much standard these days, but there are still times when composers write drumming music in a new way because its faster, easier, or they just don’t know better.Thescot 21:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Tuning
Is there a certain tuning for a standard kit or at least something that they should be set around? Or is it all just personal preference? --XdiabolicalX 16:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Depending on the style of music, the tuning tends to be different. For example, for funk, you want a lower and deeper snare and toms, whereas for punk, you want a very crisp, high snare with higher toms. Also, the interval between adjacent toms is often a minor 3rd. -Evan S e eds (talk) 01:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Note that for funk a very high tuned snare is also adequate. For the toms, the most versatile tuning tends to be a perfect 5th between them.

Zendrum Link
It seems a bit weird to have the link to the Zendrum there in "See Also". I think that either that should be removed, or we should add more links. --Julian Bennett Holmes 03:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Base Drum Kit
I wanted to reword the Modern kits and components section. I just wanted to add what is considered a "base set." what do ya'll think? Jollygamer321 04:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What I consider a "base set" (or the minimum a set must have) is: a 4-piece set (bass drum, snare drum, high tom, low tom/floor tom); a hi hat and a ride cymbal. However a bass drum, snare drum and hi hat/ride cymbal can be sufficient

Merging breakables?
I'd be in favor of merging the other article into this one. Comments? -- Ci e lomobile minor7♭5 04:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

yea theres really no need for it to have its own seperate article.

Nonsense section
"Early drum kits were known as (from contraption). Though this term is now uncommon..." I don't understand what this means, surely an incomplete sentence? --born against 14:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Zildjian Cymbals
The final paragraph in the history section should be taken out or edited. It is not neccessary to include such an extensive history of the Zildjian cymbal company and a huge portion of the paragraph is devoted to exactly that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.239.238.229 (talk) 21:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Discussion: usefull?
it appearntly shows that you can probably get the information you need out of an article's discussion even if the article is not complete. I mean, hey, i got mounds of informatoin from this discussion that wasnt in the article posted. maybe some of you guys should re write a bunch of the stuff? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Notation again
The notation section does not belong here, the exact same images and article content are contained in Percussion notation, which in turn was previously a part of musical notation. It doesn't need to be reproduced here. Maybe a short mention of it, with a link to the main article is all that is needed.

The main thrust of this article should be the history and development of the modern drum kit, it's almost bizarre to have the main bulk of the article on musical notation when notation is comprehensively covered in another article and wider general articles on notation.

If there are no reasonable and viable objections discussed here, I will soon remove the relevant section and replace it with a shorter mention of notation and a link; and start working on including history and development sections. Liverpool Scouse 16:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Opinion
I removed "It is important however to remember that each kit is a matter of personal taste and opinion for the drummer concerned and that these are general trends." from the H&D section. I don't disagree, but this is more like advice or a "how to", which doesn't belong. If someone wants to add something about individual drummers not following the overall trends, fine, I guess. But I don't think the article should be telling people what's "important to remember". Actionsquid 18:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

hi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.122.63 (talk) 18:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Breakables
I condensed breakables down to a paragraph (relisting each type of drum in a kit isn't necessary) and placed it near the top of the article. Cites are still needed. -Bikinibomb 05:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Drum Portal?
I saw thier was a guitar portal, is their a drum portal. Prince Of All Saiyans 16:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Drums r typ of kool
ya —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.86.217.25 (talk) 15:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Place of invention?
Are drum sets an American creation or not? drums are cool 63.231.226.39 (talk) 08:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Most notably when Ludwig made the bass drum pedal system workable, Chicago 1909. Up until then drums were played in a marching fashion. -Bikinibomb (talk) 20:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC) drums are cool

drum kit
The drum kit is arranged so that only one person can play them all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.132.113 (talk) 02:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
Hi. I'd just like to report that this page was vandalised. I witnessed this as of 10:38am GMT +0 time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.123.187.242 (talk) 10:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Image Labels
In the image at the top of the page, a cymbal is labeled as the crash cymbal, but it looks to me like the ride. I'm not much of an expert on drums, however--can anyone confirm and correct this? Planninefromouterspace (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

You're exactly right, I saw this and thought the same thing. I don't know how to correct this, but I absolutely agree with you, what's depicted most resembles a ride cymbal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.237.117 (talk) 06:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The label has now been changed, to be consistent with descriptions on ride cymbal and crash cymbal, as well as another editor's comment at Template talk:Drum kit components. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

A little spammy?
Reading through the article (I'm buying a set and doing research), there are a couple of statements about Drum Workshop that seem to me like advertising. Just putting it out there... 76.112.200.171 (talk) 20:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Elvis?
"Elvis Presley invented 1 of the many of drums in the drum kit!" Umm.. Unless it sais which drum he might've invented it might need to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.106.102.212 (talk) 05:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

"First created in the 1700s" ??
by, unfortunately this stood unchallenged for more than 20 months. Now it's history. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of history, that's what I came to the article looking for, and didn't find any. Just thought I'd mention that to anyone who's actively working on this article. Relsqui (talk) 04:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

== Clarification of drum components =

I noticed that someone added some examples as to how different components can add/establish different moods depending on the music genre. Perhaps this can be eventually expanded to clarify what is meant by "washy" vs "clean" sounds. It might also be advantageous to include some audio files and citations for more specific examples, as long as they adhere to the Wikipedia standards of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.177.223 (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, there is no mention of how the 'standard' layout of the drum kit evolved. Obviously I would imagine that Gene Krupa must figure heavily here, and he was of course the driving force behind many drum and cymbal advances, but some drummers rearrange the kit for different playing styles or preference.  For example; I play my basic electronic kit in a way that some think 'weird' (i.e. drums and pedals as normal but hi-hat trigger top right of snare with mechanical tambourine above hit with upstrokes off the hat; ride cymbal to left/crash to right). I've tried to spot other 'odd' arrangements on youtube, but does anybody know of notable drummers who set their kits out unusually? 81.132.91.79 (talk) 15:59, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

More audio file examples
I'd like to add more audio file examples, especially beats. I was thinking of uploading two jazz beats and a blues beat, and I'd love to upload more, but I also don't want to clutter the page with 200 examples of different beats. How many is okay? Also, there's nothing in this article about fills so I'll probably add a section on that sometime in the near future. Mr. Napalm (talk) 19:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

First drum kit
I would like to know the date -or an approximation- and place of the first evidence we have of the existence of a drum kit recognisable as the instrument we know today.Thank you.

yea its really hard to tell. i dont think there was any around before the 20th century but im not sure. my best guess would probably be early 1910s but it wouldn't be until the 20s or 30s that they started becoming heavily used due to jazz becoming popular.

according to "The Drum Book" efforts were made as early as the 1890's but william F. ludwig became the perfector of the drum kit, in 1909, because of his bass drum peadal. read the book its really good unfortunetly i dont remember the author.


 * The drum kit developed seamlessly from the traps kit in the early 20th century. Which was the first drum kit is a bit like trying to decide which was the first guitar. Andrewa (talk) 05:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Recording nonsense
While it is nice to see a section explaining the difficulties to record the sound of a full drumkit with the early 78rpm and cylinder recording techniques, the details given are patent nonsense. You do hear (crash) cymbals all the time on both brass-band and dance-band recordings from the earliest days on. What was difficult to capture were ride and hi-hat cymbals as they consist of very high frequencies for which the mechanical recording horn was rather insensitive and which easily got buried in the rather prominent surface noise of early media. Their avoidance has nothing to do with "affecting the spectrum of sound at playback" (how is this supposed to happen physically?), but simply with their being not clearly audible in the recording. Woodblocks on the other hand produce lots of sound energy in the upper midrange which recorded and reproduced loud and clear through a gramophone horn. Again the statement that they were preferred is correct, but the reason given is BS (why should a "short attack" be better? Gramophones were able to handle sustained notes very well!). 92.78.109.83 (talk) 20:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. I revised the section and added some details. Some rewording will be made soon, citations/references added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evinrude55 (talk • contribs) 21:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What about lefties?
do lefties set up their drum kits different? What about lefties who are right-footed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkkelf99 (talk • contribs) 07:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Most lefties do set up the drums in mirror-image of the traditional kit. It's a real hassle!


 * In the case of right-footed lefties or left-footed right handed drummers, it's possible to set up the pedals in the opposite handedness to the toms and cymbals, it just means that you don't cross over your hands when playing hi-hat, and do when playing ride, the opposite of the traditional approach. But few do in my experience, most just stick with the traditional right-handed setup and adopt the ambidextrous approach advocated by Simon Phillips, Philly Treloar and others, who don't cross over at any time. (We once thought this was taking over for all drummers and the traditional hand cross would die out, but like with stick grips, the traditional method has made a comeback.)


 * And some natural lefties, such as myself, elect to play a fully right-handed kit with traditional hand crossing. I made the same decision regarding guitar, on the (good) advice of a great teacher. He said when I was about to buy my first good guitar and appalled at paying extra for an instrument that none of my friends would be able to play, "try swapping over for a few weeks, and if it's going to work then within three weeks you'll be as good right-handed as you are now left handed. But be warned, once you swap you can never go back." He's right in all respects. As a leftie I could play a right-handed guitar, with some effort; Now if I try to play a leftie it makes me quite nausious, to the point it's impossible. But with drums, I just never considered setting them up left-handed, and can now with effort play any setup, although I strongly prefer to have the hihat pedal on the left (I now play double kick so the bass drum is not an issue). Andrewa (talk) 18:04, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Price
I know drum kits vary in prices drastically,but am not sure how much exactly.Perhaps adding a price range of drum kits in the article would improve it--Rabidolphinz 10:59, 22 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DXproton (talk • contribs)


 * Prices for drum kits do vary enormously. I recently bought a sound basic kit second-hand but hardly played for one hundred Australian dollars; The top extended kits are many thousands. Locality makes a difference too. Second-hand it's very hard to generalise, but almost always better value than buying new provided you can get some competent advice, perhaps from your drum teacher. If I were buying a new kit for a student then I'd hope to get it a little under a thousand Australian dollars, but I'd never advise a student to buy their first kit new (your second, Yes! But be warned you will mourn for your first). Beware of the cymbal packs they sell with new drum kits, some are OK, some are junk and some brands sell both junk and reasonable stuff. If they're unbranded or have the same brand as the kit, be particularly cynical! Playing junk cymbals will really retard your playing, they have no sensitivity and you'll develop the habit of hitting them very hard without getting very much volume. Practising on such cymbals risks RSI and similar injuries to yourself, but more important IMO, later when you do get to play decent ones you'll have no control over them and may damage both the cymbals and your hearing. Similarly heads; Playing junk heads will retard your playing. If the kit comes with unbranded heads you may need to replace them all, and the cost of this can be similar to the cost of the kit all over again so do your sums first. Hope that helps. Andrewa (talk) 06:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Sizing
Article currently reads Snare, tom and bass drum sizes are most correctly expressed as depth x diameter, both in inches.

This is POV and untrue. It's later pointed out (correctly) that some manufacturers reverse the order. Ever wonder why?

In fact for toms, where by far the most important parameter is the diameter rather than the depth, it's at least arguable that the correct order is diameter first. However, it's also true that depth first is both traditional and still the more common, so I suppose a case can be made for Wikipedia to adopt depth first as a convention.

The depth first tradition comes from the fact that the first precisely sized drums were snare drums, and the head size was fairly standard, so the most interesting parameter was the depth.

And still today, a 5" snare drum is 5" in depth, and 14" in diameter unless otherwise stated. But a 12" tom is 12" in diameter, and depth unspecified (but probably 8" or 9").

Just another lot of stuff I must source so I can legitimately add it to the article. Andrewa (talk) 06:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Some examples:

depth x diameter
 * http://www.ludwig-drums.com/drumkits/legacyclassic.php Ludwig
 * http://www.gretschdrums.com/?fa=drums&sid=572#specs Gretsch
 * http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Slingerland/Drum%20Kits/Broadway/ Slingerland

diameter x depth
 * http://www.pearleurope.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=5&TopId=1&MainId=5&SubId=6&ProductName=Masterworks Pearl Europe
 * http://www.pearldrum.com/Products/Drumsets/Reference.aspx Pearl USA
 * http://www.sonor.com/pbas/Sonor_FE/sonor/english/kategorie.html?a-quicklink-n_katid=858 Sonor
 * http://drumset.premier-percussion.com/catalogue/drumset/drumsets/premier-series-elite-2 Premier

More to follow! Andrewa (talk) 10:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I have put what I consider the verifiable information into a new section Drum kit, which still needs sources. Andrewa (talk) 23:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Refactoring
The more I looked the more I saw good information and chaotic organisation, both within this article and within the cluster of articles that use Template:Drum kit components. There's a great amount of overlap and underlap between these articles.

Refactor in progress. The basic heading structure is there but little material has been removed yet. Some more will be added, but some of what is there should go to other articles. Andrewa (talk) 11:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Photos
Need some good ones. Lots of room for improvement. A work in progress!

For the lead: desperately need one!

For the history section:

1939 - to add

is excellent and already used but could perhaps be cropped, it's a shame we don't have the date

Plus one of each significant drummer mentioned, at least, which should be easily sourced from Commons.

For Configurations: At least one for each subsection. Easily taken by just setting one of my kits up appropriately, but far more interesting to have some more significant drummers on kits for which they are typical, Ringo Starr with a floor tom four-piece for example, maybe Virgil Donati with a five-piece, maybe Keith Moon or Simon Phillips with a very extended kit, many contenders there, just pick the best photo from Commons. The four-piece with two hanging toms a little more difficult, maybe a fusion kit? Andrewa (talk) 20:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

A contender for a professional kit photo, numbered

A good one of a drum rack, even floor toms and bass drums and microphones (hmmm... can argue the wisdom of that, as it looks like a recording session not live) on the rack. This should probably go to drum hardware, and at drum rack when the article is written, but maybe here too.

5 piece

Baby Dodds kit in museum

historic Keith Moon tom set

fusion kit with rim mounts

Van halen kit with unique bass drums and improvised concert toms

Headsets by PureCussion never took on

shows power tom depth well but no ride

for drum hardware article

The Beatles without Ringo, but shows their typical at the time 4-piece kit with ride and sizzle but no separate crash

More to follow. Andrewa (talk) 21:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Right or left foot
A recent edit (by an anon who has made other constructive edits to the article, but few other edits) removes the traditional assignment of bass drum and hi-hat pedals to right and left foot respectively, and instead talks of personal preference. While it's certainly true that it is a personal preference, the previous phrasing was also true and far more informative.

In fact I have met few drummers who did not prefer the traditional pedal setup when playing a traditional two-pedal kit, and fewer still who used double kick and departed from the same pattern extended to three pedals, that is right foot dedicated to kick drum, left going between hats and kick. Similarly, in commons I have yet to find a photograph that departs from this pattern.

Of those drummers I know who do depart from this pattern, every last one is a left-hander who mirror-image reverses the whole kit pattern, including pedals, toms and cymbals. And I also know several left-handed drummers who play right-handed kits, and I am in this category myself.

In fact, left-handedness is most often dealt with in this fashion in music. I also play guitar right-handed, and this was a personal and considered decision taken with a competent and sympathetic guitar teacher. I swapped when about to purchase my first expensive guitar, and have never regretted it. But my teacher did say "give it three weeks, and if it's going to work you'll be as good in that time right handed as you are now as a left hander. But be warned, if you do swap you can never go back". He was right on both counts.

I realise this is controversial, and a strong POV of some campaigners for left-handed rights. But it is a completely different situation to being forced to write with the right hand (which I also suffered, and developed the stutter, the whole bit). Very few musicians play any instrument left-handed. There are left-handed guitars and drum kits, but no left-handed marching snare drummers or orchestral violinists, for practical reasons. There are no left-handed keyboard instruments, and for the larger ones such as orchestral grand pianos and pipe organs this is again for practical reasons, but there are no left-handed small keyboards either. Nor are there left-handed tombones, euphoniums, bassoons, saxophones or flutes, although I have seen a simple system flute played very well left-handed, and rumour is that Jacques Cousteau played the cello left-handed, as did Harpo Marx the harp. But playing a right-handed wind instrument left-handed would in most cases be impossible.


 * I stand corrected on the piano, there is one . Andrewa (talk) 16:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * And I note that there are no right-handed French Horns! Andrewa (talk) 16:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, back to drum kits. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, the fact is that most drummers play right-handed kits set up in the traditional manner, and a few play left-handed kits mirror-image reversed from the traditional right-handed setup, and there are very, very few others at any level. Every drum teacher I know gives beginners the choice of right and left handed, with no pressure either way, and many give a choice of matched or trad grip particularly if they have some previous experience with one or the other, but those are the only choices we give them. (And personally I say to them that it doesn't matter whether it's trad or matched at this stage because on the kit you will soon learn the freedom to automatically swap grips as needed, which is what the best of my teachers taught me and I have never looked back.) I would have grave doubts concerning the competence of any teacher who did otherwise. It is not personal preference at this stage at all, that comes later. For a beginner it is a matter of deciding which of these few options works best for the individual, and developing the player's technique based on that. Every drum method I know of either gives the simple choice of right or left handed or no choice at all.

I have been looking hard for a photo of any left-handed kit in Commons, and have not yet even found one of this. They are all conventional and right-handed!

I am not going to revert at this stage, but I note that we have no reference either way, and expect that when we do find one it will be reverted to something similar to my previous version at that stage. Andrewa (talk) 16:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * On reflection, I'm not going to wait for a reference but instead try taking this to the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. The previous version was accurate, the current version is IMO misleading and POV. So I've reverted the edit in question . (I did then reinstate part of it but then realised that this attempted wikilink is invalid anyway, so it's now gone too.) Andrewa (talk) 11:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Double bass pedal
Uncertain about this edit.

1. The rest of this particular list are all instruments added, while a double pedal is just hardware to allow the same instrument to be played by either foot. So I'm not sure that logically it fits into this section. I play a sleishman, but my normal stage kit is still a five-piece kit, while if I added a second bass drum instead it would become a six-piece.

2. I don't think heavy metal drummers use double pedals, not at the top levels anyway. Double bass drums are expected.

I'm sleeping on it. Andrewa (talk) 06:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I've had a go at a compromise . Andrewa (talk) 07:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Drum set or drum kit
I have reverted what seems to be a global search and replace on drum kit, replacing it by the synonym drum set, by an IP with no other edits. There was also a subsequent edit to (rightly) remove the template link that the search and replace edit broke, now unneeded and also reverted.

Please discuss here, and consider:


 * The article name is drum kit.


 * There's a template template:drum kit components, and if you change this to set then it breaks the link for no obvious benefit.

If there's a case for using the alternative drum set then perhaps raise a requested move to rename the article? Then the arguments can be presented and discussed.

I have posted a heads-up on the relevant user talk page. Andrewa (talk) 10:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Another point to consider: drum set is ambiguous, as it can mean either the whole kit, or just the drums. Drum kit always means the whole kit including hardware, cymbals and other instruments. Andrewa (talk) 20:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 March 2012

 * A bass drum, played by a pedal operated by the right and or left foot depending on style as well as dominant hand, and foot striation.

74.47.84.66 (talk) 02:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: In the description above the bullet points, it says the list is for a right-handed player. — Bility (talk) 18:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note above. But this latest request is just plain inaccurate in several new ways. There is, for example, no style of music that uses a bass drum on the left foot rather than the right for a right handed drummer. Andrewa (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Additional citations
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 01:06, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Good question, Most often in my experience these tags are added in hit-and-run fashion with little if any thought and no benefit to Wikipedia, perhaps this is a case in point. Come the revolution, any user who adds three such tags to articles without first creating a talk page section to discuss each will be automatically blocked for 24 hours. (-> There seems to have been no attempt to discuss on this occasion, I can't be bothered to check the history to find out for sure.


 * This article is already way above average, so I'd be happy to have the tag removed immediately. But I haven't done so myself as I have high hopes to get the article to GA or even FA standard, and I don't think the inlines are up to even GA standard yet. Do you?


 * I think, for example, that a reference for the list in the lead of the standard instruments in a kit would be good. The Trinity site doesn't list them, or a least not on the page cited, I haven't fully explored the site yet. That's probably the first big gap. Jumping way ahead at random, there's an unreferenced claim that a five-piece kit is the standard entry-level kit and most common configuration, and I think that's both accurate and a very important fact but again a citation would be good.


 * And there are many, many similar. Andrewa (talk) 01:10, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Drum Muffles Section
I have been working on an expansion of the Muffles section under Accessories. I see that someone added some information on it very recently, so I hope to include that information as well. Any feedback will be great! Thanks Steveotenors (talk) 20:52, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Great work is my comment. I'll try to get around to adding some photos to commmons... clip-on muffles, internal muffles. Big clip-on muffles used to be standard on bass drums but fell from favour before my time, replaced by pillows and ported heads. My old Tama Swingstar kit (a really nice kit, unfortunately Tama have now reused the name Swingstar for a student level kit) was unusual for its day in that it had no internal muffles on the toms, and instead came with clip-ons. Dead-ringers and the like are relatively new, we used to make them from old drum heads. I've also make them from card and felt.


 * The section deserves to be expanded to its own article, one day. Andrewa (talk) 12:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Materials
Shocking article :P

I think you should add what type of material drum skins are made of, and what they have been made of in the past.


 * We can't put everything in this one article! The place to look for this information is the drum article, which links in turn to the drumhead article to which drum skin also links.


 * But no article is perfect. How about creating a userid, joining WikiProject Percussion and helping us to improve this one? (Or you can even do any one or two of these things without doing the third.) Andrewa (talk) 16:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Colleges which teach drums
Reverting this edit with an expansion which I hope answers the IP's concern. They have made an important point, it's just that I don't think that removing the reference was the way to deal with it.

Feel free to add more references, but the claim that there is any standard configuration at all has been contested in the past (no, I don't know which planet they came from either) so it's important to retain this one. Or if you have better references then all the better. Andrewa (talk) 19:50, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Questions answered...
Snare is purely short for snare drum, because most drummers are lazy and cant be bothered to say two words when one is only needed (hence hihat is often just called a hat). Snare drums are called so, as dragonfly pointed out, because of the metal snares attached to the rim on the resonant head to give the snare it's buzz. This is the same in orchestral snare drum playing except that often a combination of metal and plastic snares are used to give the drum more bite, and make it sound less like a drum kit snare.

The high hat started out life in dixieland drumming and was called a "snowshoe cymbal beater", and was operated in a similar way as it is today. At the same time another drum company was developing a similar product called a "low boy", obviously much lower than a modern hihat. This then morphed into the hihat as we know it today, with the introduction of many different branded products from companies (such as Gretsch and Ludwig). The specifics of this are unclear to to me - if anyone can find out more information and add it i would be pleased.

Other notes: the rim shot is different from what is posted on the article - a rim shot is when the stick hits the head and the rim at the same time. What is actually posted is a RIM CLICK, which is where the hand mutes the drum and knocks the stick on the rim using that hand. This is a common misunderstanding amung drummers, and could someone change this please. Lawrence Dunn - LozDunn@gmail.com

Early cymbals used on "snowshoe" devices had large deep bells (or cups) and very short bows (flat-tapered part of cymbal); they resembled derby hats. Elevate them and you have high hats. I learned this over 20 years ago from a gentleman who was drumming during the actual evolution of the high hat. Also probably in some half-remembered article in Modern Drummer Magazine. Mark Ryan - ludwigdrummertoo@netzero.net


 * Useful observations and generally correct... but the opinion that drummers are lazy isn't terribly encyclopedic unless you can cite some authority. I am frequently at gigs 30 minutes before the guitarist and still packing up and lugging 30 minutes after they've gone. One night the guitarist was tuning and said thoughtfully "It must be great being a drummer... you don't have to tune." I'd actually spent the whole day tuning the rack toms, before packing the whole kit up to unpack it again at the venue.


 * Nothing could be dumber than the urge to become a drummer. (Alder)


 * And not all snares are metal, or even plastic, and they're never attached to the rim AFAIK, they pass over the rim, and some snare drums have them on the top head as well or only, generally below it. Suggest that you do some research and thinking before making such embarrassingly ignorant statements. Andrewa (talk) 14:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Off-the-shelf kits vs custom
Unsure of the merits of this edit.

On the plus side I can see what it's trying to say and the reference given http://kingofdrummers.com/drum-companies.html does support the claim. And it's the first and so far only contribution of a new editor.

On the minus side it's not very well expressed and is a marginal copyvio, there is some rephrasing of the source but maybe not quite enough. And the source is rather POV towards custom drum manufacturers.

Pondering... I will send the contributor a welcome, just unsure quite how to phrase it while deciding what to do with their first effort. Andrewa (talk) 07:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Welcome sent (finally) but contributor has no activity in the meantime so it may be too late... pity.

After long consideration, I'm removing the paragraph they added. Removed text was '' When someone buys a drum set from any drum company they will be getting a preset configuration of drums. The sizes, color and main characteristics of the drum set will be already established. What this means is that people will only get to choose some options for a new drum set. ''. Andrewa (talk) 23:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Cymbals
Unsure of the merits of this edit by a newbie. Remember we are describing in this paragraph a basic, standard student kit, and the hi-hat is already given a line of its own. So one or more suspended cymbals was 100% accurate, and is more specific than one or more cymbals. Not worth reverting without a little more thought, the new version is also accurate, just flagging here that IMO the edit makes the article a little worse rather than better. Andrewa (talk) 14:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Professional kits
There's been a minor edit war about the word professional  which I used to describe this kit.

I stick by the description! I'm particularly impressed by the positioning and the mix of cymbals... the kid with too much money to spend would never use an Alpha and a Wuhan, they'd buy all Signatures and/or K Zildjians, but the pro whose bottom line is sound will do exactly that. The positioning is suitable for playing a four set gig not just a few flashy songs.

But hey, no great loss either way. I do notice that the IP that temporarily restored the word is also used by a vandal. Andrewa (talk) 03:02, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Breakables
We used to have an article on this, but the content was merged here and somehow lost. New section added, it's still unsourced at present but is important information and easily verified. Andrewa (talk) 16:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Is there a standard kit
I confess to a certain level of frustration regarding the latest removal of the reference to the Trinity College drum site from the lead. I can't be bothered finding out who did it and why. Whoever it was, they chose not to discuss it.

Can I ask a few questions:
 * Does anyone not agree that there is a standard, common, international teaching technique for basic drum kit, leading towards the general configuration shown at right?
 * Does anyone not understand that this article will be read by people who know little if anything about kit drumming, and may not therefore know about this standard configuration? You may find this hard to believe, but when I built my first drum kit from tins and boxes I had no idea about this. Even when I brought my first store-bought kit home I got a few things wrong! I'm sure I'm not the only one.
 * Does anyone not think that this standard configuration is encyclopedic, and should therefore be described in the article (as it is currently)?
 * Does anyone think that this fact should be exempt from the normal Wikipedia policy on citations?
 * Does anyone have a better reference that the Trinity site? (Then add it! Please!)
 * Does anyone not regard the site as a reliable source?

If your personal answer to any of the negative questions above is that you affirm the negative (for example you do not agree there is a standard... etc) then please, please, let's discuss it.

I can't believe that anyone who has ever looked at the drumming configurations of a few of the big-name drummers would fail to see that there's something common to their setups. As described in the article lead and used by every drum teacher I've ever spoken to, every student I've ever had, every drum workshop I've attended, and almost every drum kit I've ever seen set up in a concert (including an awesome modern classical piece at an MA candidate's concert I attended years ago at the Sydney Conservatorium, which was for flute played by the candidate and three drum kits) or pub band or rock concert, or in a music shop or recording studio or church. I can think offhand of only two exceptions... Gye Bennetts has played in several of my bands over the years, and he sets his kit up left-handed, and Simon Phillips has his main ride on the left hand side sometimes ( see Tommy in Concert at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyAj1K9iKMU ). But even many left-handed drummers (such as myself) set up right-handed. It's too much hassle to be swapping the backline, so southpaws and their bands just don't get invited back. Sad maybe, but if you want work, you're best to play standard. (I give my students the choice. But I have always been grateful to my guitar teacher for allowing me the option of swapping to the right hand when I was about to buy my first decent guitar and before I owned a real drum kit, and the good advice he gave about how to tell whether it would work for me. And for me it does, obviously. But not for everyone.)

Anyway, point just being that there is a standard setup. Isn't there? And sure, it's a basis for a kit. I have very rarely seen a vanilla kit. I've never played one as far as I can remember. Maybe once or twice. Maybe.

I'll get around to putting the reference and any others I can find back sooner or later. Or would someone like to give me a hand and do it? It would improve the article!

And if you intend to remove it again, please discuss here. Do it if you must, just discuss it here as well.

That's all I'm asking. It is (obviously) controversial, and to continue to remove the ref without any discussion would IMO now cross the line into being vandalism. Sorry if that's blunt, but you've had plenty of chances to discuss this.

Or take it to WP:DR. We may end up there anyway. Seems pointless to me. I'll be arguing my case based on the bullet points above. Andrewa (talk) 17:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

On reflection I've had a look. The edit in question is from an IP with lots of other contributions, edit summary is spam message in text for musical college. I guess they either don't like Trinity or I'm more inclined to think that they're ignorant of its status in music tuition generally. Trinity has no need or reason to spam anyone.

In fairness, our own article on Trinity does not even mention their exams! These started in 1872, and last year Trinity tested about half a million students, worldwide. Yes, that's 500,000 examinations per year. I'll put it on my todo list to fix that article.


 * And they've been international for a long time too, starting in Australia in the late 1800s. Andrewa (talk) 12:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

It's a different IP to last time, I wonder whether it's the same editor? Andrewa (talk) 06:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Looking for some better links... http://www.musicteachers.com.au/examinat.htm lists some of the examining bodies in Australia (including of course Trinity). Not all of these do kit drums but several do. Their various syllabuses and teaching materials will describe the basic drum kit configuration. But I'd like to avoid buying any of these just for the reference, and my local music shop won't likely have them, they'd be a special order. Hmmm... Andrewa (talk) 06:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Ongoing... but meantime I've again restored the link, this time in a slightly less spammy-looking way perhaps (can argue that both ways). And placed a comment there too. Hopefully next time it's removed we'll at least have some discussion here after the fact. Andrewa (talk) 17:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Caption for photo of a professional kit
I'm going to belatedly revert this edit. It's arguably the most subtle piece of vandalism that I've yet seen! The second-largest tom is on a stand, supported by a standard Pearl 20mm tom arm, and the largest has floor tom legs. And there's plenty of detail to see this clearly if you download the high-resolution version from Commons. You might arguably describe the second biggest as a hanging floor tom if it were an inch or two deeper, but it's not, and the floor tom is not hanging in any sense at all.

I'm not going to reinstate the word professional, just note again that that's what the contributor of the photo called it, and in my opinion anyone who disagrees with that description simply knows nothing about the Pearl Masters Studio BRX kit pictured. It's not just the quality of the drums and cymbals, it's also the choice of the cymbals (including Zildjians, Paistes and one Wuhan... this drummer has used both their ears and wallet well, and chosen without consideration of make, series or price which also means not simply buying the most expensive) and the setup (this is quite simply a beautiful office). They've also resisted the temptation to go for rim mounts (which many drum shops will just assume that you want on a kit of this quality, and most amateurs will just buy them but it means more weight and cases one size bigger and the pro knows that they'll have to carry them so they will consider the decision carefully) and identical bass drum pedals (the only advantage of this is most commonly psychological, as very few drummers exploit the balance of identical pedals or even have the balanced muscle development necessary to do so, even at the top pro level, and hence the standard setup of even the Sleishman symmetrical pedal is lighter for the left foot). I would love to play this kit sometime!

But no big deal, it doesn't take much from the article to remove the accurate term professional. Misinformation on the tom mounts is another thing entirely. Andrewa (talk) 15:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. I also note that the IP who made the change has no other contributions at all (thankfully perhaps). Andrewa (talk) 15:35, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

SVG version available
SVG version of file Drums.jpg available:
 * -- Victor  • talk   08:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC).


 * Unfortunately, this new version of the image does not work with the existing image map used in template:drum kit components. The image map can possibly be rewritten, but it's a lot of work and I'm not even sure that it will work at all. See also mw:Extension:ImageMap.


 * It's a shame, as the new svg version is better looking as well. Andrewa (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Copyedit
I note this edit by a keen copyeditor of long standing. It looks semi-automated and there were many different things done in a single save, which makes it difficult to comment on the individual edits.

Most of it was legitimate de-capitalisation, but there are also examples of refactoring and removal of text, at least, some possibly controversial.

Intending to have a better look at the details when I have time... it's a bit tedious to do so. Andrewa (talk) 15:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Seven piece with floor tom
For the second time (see above and ) I've reverted a rather strange edit.

The ip concerned is a different one this time and a slightly different mistake (but perhaps the same person, neither ip has any other contributions). They claim that File:OutsideBRX-15.JPG shows a kit with four hanging toms. The previous time it was claimed that two of these were hanging floor toms, which I guess means floor tom dimensions 14x14 and 16x16 both on hanging tom mounts, but it's still wrong, the 14" and 16" are on completely different mounts (and I'm guessing the 14" is only 12" depth anyway, as this and all the other drums are standard for the series but a 14x14 rack mount would be a special, and most probably made by converting a 14x14 floor tom which would leave mounting holes from the foot casings visible even if filled and there are none, this is clearly visible through the clear Remo Weather King batter head).

(And incidentally the choice of these premium but economical medium heads again verifies that this is a genuine professional kit, any kid with too much money to spend and a drum shop abusing his naivity (oh they wouldn't do that... flap flap oink) would be easily persuaded to go for something heavier and more expensive, maybe Remo Pinstripes or Evans, see above.)

A quick look at the photo shows that the 16" has no tom mount, just two of the feet clearly visible and you can also see the mounting screws of the one behind the drum if you look carefully. It's a classic floor tom plain and simple.

Have a look at http://alderspace.pbworks.com/w/page/86249668/seven%20piece%20with%20floor%20tom for some closeups and an analysis of what they show. But it's really not rocket science... Andrewa (talk) 22:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Drum sizes
I'm concerned at this edit. From the edit summary ''Drum sizes: according to the preceding explanation and the succeeding example, these two values were expressed incorrectly. I flipped them around'' it would appear that the contributor doesn't themselves know which way around it should be.

Looking at the article, the section is now and already was a mess... misplaced capital and spelling error on The United Kingdomn, confusing phrasing, a redlink to a brand DrumShop Usa which doesn't seem to be mentioned on the web anywhere  so they can't be a terribly major manufacturer assuming that the formatting is right... it looks exactly like something that the very worst drum-shop salesperson (there are some very good ones, but there are some awful duds too) or their unfortunate, misinformed clients would write. ''How many drummers does it take to change a light globe? D'oh, but I'm the drummer and there's only one of me, what's a light globe anyway? Can't I have a heavy one? I think I'd be better with a heavy one...''

Probably the cause of the current confusion is that all the refs that were once there documenting the usage of specific manufacturers seem to have been removed... such is Wikipedia! Andrewa (talk) 01:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

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Extremely long!
To begin with, this article is extremely long! Most of the topics discussed can simply be moved to "See Also", as they are already covered on their respective pages. This article is in danger if it does not get shorter.

To continue, a brief history in the history section is all that is required as there are many pages that can be referenced from to aid the reader in further research. The reader does not need to be bombarded with all of this extra information as they can research further using wikilinks and the "See also" section.

That Lead is too large!
The Lead is extremely large. It really can be explained in a much simpler fashion. It took me many years to fully comprehend all of these subjects of a drum kit and this Lead makes it confusing again. It is actually scary for a reader who does not know anything about drum kits and discourages anyone from reading it except those who are experienced in the matter. --Xavier (talk) 00:38, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Last revision undone
The last revision undone due to no citations and original research. We need to reference.

Also, there are some questionable citations, references "4" and "14" to start with. Companies who sell products such as drum kits are highly questionable sources of information. --Xavier (talk) 13:46, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Diagram
The diagram showing the components of a drum kit is a bit confusing (and the same diagram appears in all wiki articles on them). The crash cymbal is not clearly labelled, for example. Could someone make the diagram larger, perhaps? ~ P-123 (talk) 16:35, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't realise clicking on the diagram would enlarge it. Where is the usual icon for enlarging? Could someone add it, please? ~ P-123 (talk) 16:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Scrub it, the "i" icon is probably sufficient. :( ~ P-123 (talk) 16:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Although, after clicking the "i" icon, only the parts are indicated, not the legend, and switching back and forth is not really practicable, is it? ~ P-123 (talk) 16:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Five piece in cases
I've just fixed the caption that somebody "corrected", I've been happily lumping this kit around the country in those cases for almost thirty years now, I think I'd have noticed if one of the toms was missing. What has probably fooled the bod who fixed it is that the 12" and 13" rack toms are in one case. Highly recommended and quite common in Aus. Andrewa (talk) 05:28, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Some cleanup
Removed ''Sometimes there are two pedals controlling two bass drums, which are operated by both feet. depending on the drum set'' from the lead. Yes, that's true, and more commonly in my experience there are two pedals on the one bass drum (try the Sleishman, I have never looked back), but that level of detail is not appropriate for the lead.

And reverted the first bit of this edit but not the second. it's a bit puzzling, the ddrum->drum edit seems almost vandalism, the adding info to the lead just unhelpful good-faith editing, and the blank added in the ddrum->drum edit seems constructive. And that's all the IP concerned has done to date. Andrewa (talk) 07:12, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup of wording
Article suggested only jazz players set up their own kits, and popular rock/pop bands have hired help. This is false. Setup has zero to do with musical genre, but how financially successful they are and if worthwhile to pay for hired help. --Cheap-stock-photos (talk) 01:22, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree that's complete rubbish. I know what they're getting at, but this unsourced claim is better just removed. Setup depends on lots of things, particular in jazz, where there's a lot more mutual support between drummers (and dare I say professionalism), and roadies are generally a lot less numerous at all levels (at least they are in Aus), and cymbals particularly tend to be a lot more fragile and precious. I would be most reluctant to let any roadie or most rock drummers anywhere near my paperthin crashes, at a rock gig they are the last thing mounted and they leave the stage when I do, but at any jazz venue they are quite safe and quite often played and enjoyed by the next drummer up.
 * Agree your edit is an improvement. Andrewa (talk) 07:28, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

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Stax
I think this edit should be reinstated, it's true and informative but (like much of the article) agree it's inadequately sourced.

and, how about helping me source it? Andrewa (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not that familiar with drum terminology, but a Google book search for "cymbals" + "stacks" didn't turn up anything useful. Listing some players without any discussion does not help to explain the setup.  A problem with a lot of these unreferenced instrument articles is that is difficult to know what is fact and what is personal opinion/BS.  Do you have any sources? —Ojorojo (talk) 17:20, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
 * It's certainly not BS, Portnoy and Bozio (and probably Greb but I'm not personally familiar with his gear) use stacks and I think we may even have photos of them doing so in our cymbal article, and Portnoy at one stage had a signature line of specialist stacking cymbals from a major manufacturer, Sabian I think from memory. Listing them is encyclopedic. Agree sources are needed. See https://www.amazon.com/Sabian-8-inch-China-Splash-Cymbal/dp/B0002F568O/ref=sr_1_4/130-2523004-4740445?ie=UTF8&qid=1512760125&sr=8-4&keywords=SABIAN+STACK for a start... More to follow. Andrewa (talk) 19:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Sticks
Article currently reads in part

''7N is a common jazz stick with a wooden tip, the nylon one will be 7A, and a 7C is a wooden tip but with a different tip profile (shorter than a 7N). A 5B is a common wood tipped stick, heavier than a 7N but with a similar profile, most of the beginners will choose to use it. The numbers will be in the range 1 (heaviest) to 10 (lightest). Drummer girls are recommended to first try the 2B one.''

''But drumsticks are not commonly found in Musical instrument shops, and online shopping is the most comfortable way to buy drumsticks. However, stick bags are the standard way for drummers to bring their drumsticks to a live performance. While nearly every drummer usually uses only two sticks at one time, it is very common for them to keep several pairs in their stick bag, especially when performing. The purpose of this is to always have an extra pair immediately available in the event that a stick is dropped or broken mid-song. ''

At least it keeps the dickheads busy, I suppose. Some of that is so ridiculous that even without sources I'm going to make it accurate! Andrewa (talk) 21:04, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Done. Andrewa (talk) 21:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Endorsements
Mention is made that big-name drummers endorse sticks of their own preferred design; This is true but unsourced (like much of the article).

I think the first example of this was the Rogers Roy Burns model (very close to a 7B but set a new standard of design, I still have a couple of pairs) but I'm not going to add that sort of detail without a source and I may be wrong. But the image may be of use! Andrewa (talk) 20:04, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Seb Custom Drums
The mention of Seb Custom Drums may be undue weight and perhaps even spam or even vandalism.

I can find no online evidence that this manufacturer even exists. They may, but if so it appears to be a a very small scale, non-notable brand. A Google web search turned up only their facebook pages... no reviews at all.

Any evidence that Seb Custom Drums is worthy of a mention? They may be. It's virtually impossible to prove that sources do not exist, but that's part of the reason that the onus of proof is on those who want to add the material. And we don't need to establish notability. Just mention in sources.

But can we even do that? Comments welcome. Andrewa (talk) 01:38, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

,.

Drum parts
Not every drum kit has a china splash, it’s not a main component of the kit like the hi hat or snare. 06etc (talk) 17:57, 13 May 2019 (UTC)