Talk:Duke Ellington/Archive 1

Why no talk?
Why no talk? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.76.0.33 (talk) 14:34, 13 December 2004 (UTC)
 * I dunno. Mebbe bcz no one has wondered before: --Jerzy (t) 12:50, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC)

Roots
I've removed most of this: ''James Ellington, Duke's grandfather, was sent from the low country of South Carolina to Lincoln County ,North Carolina in 1863. He was a hired out slave and worked at the Stonewall Furnace under, James Madison Smith. After the Civil War, James returned to SC and moved his family to Lincoln County. He and his wife, Emma were farmers.John Ellington, Dukes uncle was a school teacher. He married Hannah McDaniel. Daniel Rudisell married James Ellington's oldest daughter. During the economic hard times of the 1880's, it wad Daniel Rudisill who moved the family to Washington, DC. James had received a back injury and was confined to a wheelchair. Daniel and his wife took care of him, after John Ellington died and Hannah needed help as James Ellington's caregiver. The information of the Ellington family in North Carolina was provided by Mary Dellinger .a genealogist at the Lincoln County library .''

While it's relevant, it's also confused. It's not clear what the relevance of John Ellington is, or why Daniel Rudisill/Rudisell would have moved his father-in-law to Washington. It would be good to have some information about Ellington's direct ancestry, but properly referenced and consistent information.

Wikipedia style for sub-headings is not to capitalise any word other than the first one, by the way. --  ajn  (talk) 09:15, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

It is a sad day in America when our greatest composer is not fully recognized and given crap articles like this on Wikipedia. TheKid 04:35, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Not an expert really, but tried to expaand the article and suggested headings for future additions. Philip Cross 23:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * he was a great composer IchBin 05:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC) just a few spelling corrections


 * I returned to "realise", as "realize" is such a horrible barbarism (a pointless mixture of Latin and Greek roots); the "-ise" spelling is used in the U.S. as well as the U.K., Australia, Canada, et al. (e.g., ), though some sources claim incorrectly that U.S. usage is only the "-ize" form. (Some people try to make the two spellings do different jobs, with "realise" used in the way it is in this article, while "realize" is used in sentences like "She realized her assets".) --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 11:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

copyedit tag
yeah i took off the copyedit tag because i couldnt find any illwording, but if there happens to be some, please inform me. cheers, --zachjones4 19:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

no swing?
the article doesn't even mention swing! what's up with that?!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.208.238 (talk) 06:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Primary sources and racial politics
So I have a two part question here. I have quite a bit of information on Ellington from a Primary Source. My mother, Jane Coyne toured with Duke during the end of his life, and later Mercer. I have quite a few candid pictures, as well as stories about his life, but have no way to cite. I don't consider this Original Research really, but I don't know where to place it. Suggestions?

In particular, one story related to me by my mother was regarding Ellington's Racial politics. While he had a lifetime of experience with discrimination and racial politics in the states, and used his heritage as a major source of inspiration, and as a method of celebrating black culture, he did not want to be known as a "colored/black musician". The specific anecdote was about a young black reporter, working for a black publication (like jet or ebony, but I don't know specifically which publication, or if it is still around) who wanted to interview him as "the worlds best black composer". Ellington refused, saying he had worked his whole life to be judged by his talent and music, and not the color of his skin. He would be happy to give an interview to the reporter, but only for a mainstream publication, and only as a composer, not as a black composer.

Any way to include that? I think it gives some good insight into Ellington's personality, and viewpoint on race, but it is not verifiable.

Gaijin42 16:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that there's no way to include any of it here, because of our policies on original research and citation. It sounds as though you have enough material for an article for one of the jazz magazines (which might also make you some money), if not something more substantial.  Of course, once it was published, it could then be added here... --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 09:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Added 'Cat' Anderson
I added 'Cat' Anderson as one of the other members of "biggest names in jazz". His ability to hit a triple C on the trumpet puts him in with the greats of jazz. lilbrocool — Preceding undated comment added 14:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Added Cootie Williams
And the masterpiece Duke composed with him in mind "Concerto for Cootie". Words were added later and the song became "Do nothing till you hear from me" and was recorded by Billie Holiday among others. SmokeyTheFatCat 11:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewording of introduction is needed
I've decided to append an NPOV note (and I expect to be flamed for that) because I consider the tone of the article in the introduction to be overly praising. Especially the sentence: "Musically, he wore many hats, and he could never settle on just one." made me feel I was reading an Ellington album's booklet, not an encyclopedia article. Please reword this section. Tero 00:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Reads like advert" ?
What does this message above the article mean please? I can see nothing wrong with this article. SmokeyTheFatCat 09:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

(presumably) vandalism
There is a good deal of (presumably) vandalism in this. I dont have time nor do I know how to clean it up, just letting people know. For example a bizarre comment on pants in the beginning, and citing Duke as having associated with many of the "worst" names in Jazz. Subtle vandalism. Just an FYI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.233.57.18 (talk • contribs).


 * If there isn't a clear source for that particular statement than it should be removed. Robotman1974 12:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Ellingtonians
I've tried to improve the passage in "Early career", though it is not satisfactory. It needs to be included early in the article, but as it stands it makes the article drag, and slows the narrative. Should we discuss the individual characteristics of players in the main body, or in a separate section, as is a common WP practice? The majority of readers may have only a vague idea of what made Ellington special, so a new section is not really a solution either perhaps. Philip Cross 17:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Website expired?
http://www.dukeellington.com/ seemingly has expired (or been hacked?) 80.109.76.27 11:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

What more
We need to have more information on Duke we need to know about his Volunteer and Work experiences we need to know more about him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.11.120.198 (talk) 13:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

Duke Ellington was a professional -- he did not do "Volunteer" work. And his "Work experience" is his life.Owen (talk) 01:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Ofindsen

Sample?
Could we get a sample of his music up somehow? Zerath13 All his music is under copyright 198.30.138.91 (talk) 02:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Ofindsen

latecomer
Am surprised to see so little on such a great inspiration to 20th Century music and musicians. The article seems to have been tidied up since some of the comments I've read here were made, and IMHO reads nicely, but I had expected some more info about his compositions and band line-ups. 83.180.179.143 22:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC) ps. I think the anecdote of his turning down an interview for a black magazine - which I had in fact heard before - fits in perfectly on this talk page for those of us who are interested in knowing more abt the subject at hand. Other articles on pop stars have far more trivial details (for want of a better expression) and even have a trivia sub-section, so please add more!

Ellington expressed his views on race in many interviews ,but seldom in print. If I can find a recorded interview that we can credit, I'll add the information. Owen (talk)Ofindsen — Preceding undated comment added 03:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

National Treasure
For those who didn't know, Ellington's music has all officially become a national treasure (as declared by the U. S. treasury in October of 2006. I think this should be added. Can you confirm this, with citation? Owen (talk) 03:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Ofindsen

Citations & References
See Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the  tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 10:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Many changes by CaptainSam
I have reverted changes made by CaptainSam because they deleted some of the previously vetted and mature article material and because they arrived with no references. This new take on the band needs to be reinforced by published opinion. Please cite the source. Binksternet (talk) 02:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Soda Fountain Rag
I'm desperately trying to find the full version of this song. Any help? I'm not looking for the short version on Amazon. I'll pay whatever. 24.98.199.162 (talk) 07:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Brooks Kerr recorded Soda Fountain Rag in 1975, accompanied by Sonny Greer and produced by Stanley Dance, with notes by Dan Morgenstern. It may be the most authentic version you can find. I have the LP and have converted it to MP3. Owen (talk) 15:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Please please, I'll take it. Write me on my user page. BowChickaNeowNeow (talk) 01:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism twice in the last two days
Should article be locked or something?LinoPop (talk) 03:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This article is some kind of crazy vandal magnet. Must be required reading for certain school systems. I got it protected for 24 hours last November but what it needs is permanent protection against new editors and anonymous IP addresses.


 * You can request another protection period here at WP:RFP. The more requests a page gets, the more likely it will eventually get longterm protection. Binksternet (talk) 04:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Protecting against "new editors" would not be courteous or wise. As it stands, the article, is wordy, rambling and not entirely accurate. Owen198.30.138.10 (talk) 00:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Picture
Why is this picture of Duke not in the article? http://www.8notes.com/wiki/images/260px-Duke_Ellington_hat.jpg I think it is his most famous and recognizable photo. --Jim Raynor (talk) 00:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

That is because content that violates copyright can not be used. --Owen (talk) 02:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The current photo is ridiculous and should be deleted if nothing else can be found. -JP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.170.139.11 (talk) 19:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Two really good articles on Anatomy of a Murder, 50th anniversary festivities and the musical score
The Detroit Free Press today published two really good articles on the movie, the 50th anniversary festivities, and the musical score.
 * Monaghan, John, The movie that put Ishpeming on the map: UP plans events this summer to mark 50th anniversary of 'Anatomy of a Murder', January 20, 2009 Detroit Free Press.
 * Stryker, Mark, Music Critic, Ellington's score still celebrated, January 20, 2009 Detroit Free Press.

hey my name is lea and i kida like husky dogs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.40.115.249 (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

No "Duke Ellington Orchestra" article (redirects here)?
There have been a very large number of musicians that have come and gone via this organization, not excluding the bandleaders (however related to Duke himself).

There should be, for clarity sake, a separate page for the Orchestra. Tlshd (talk) 08:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

My Contributions to This Page
My handle is ellingtonrecords and I have made some major corrections on this page plus some additions. I consider myself a world class expert on Duke Ellington and the Ellington Orchestra. I wrote this paragraph:

"There are hundreds of albums dedicated to the music of Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn by artists famous and obscure. The more notable artists include Sonny Stitt, Thelonious Monk, Dizzy Gillespie, Tony Bennett, Claude Bolling, Oscar Peterson, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Dick Hyman, Joe Pass, Milt Jackson, Earl Hines, André Previn, World Saxophone Quartet, Ben Webster, Zoot Sims, Kenny Burrell, Lambert, Hendricks and Ross, Martial Solal, Clark Terry and Randy Weston."

I only included realtively famous people that have recorded Ellington and Ellington and Strayhorn tribue albums. What I live in dread of is someone starting and exacting list of these albums. There are well over 300 such albums, most by artists you have never heard of or will never hear from again. I believe that my broad stroke would be sufficient for Wikipedia.

--Ellingtonrecords (talk) 14:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that Duke Ellington smoking is a good portrayal of him...
I think that Duke Ellington smoking is a good portrayal of him... but can we get another picture or something? -- Rayqayza Dialga Weird 2210   18:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It's an accurate depiction. You don't like accuracy? Binksternet (talk) 21:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

It's a great picture. I've seen many, and this one is good. Remember the time in which he lived. Keep it. Tlshd (talk) 07:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

However bad you may think the photo is, it is within total character of the man. He was a life long smoker and died of lung cancer. --Ellingtonrecords (talk) 13:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

recent edit: the quarter
Hello all: I fixed the information on the quarter by adding a few refs. I have also fixed this line: The coin is part of the U.S. Mint's 50 State Quarters Program. This is incorrect. The quarter is part of a different program. The US Mint says on their page: The 2009 District of Columbia and U.S. Territories Quarters Program is a one-year initiative to honor the District of Columbia and the five U.S. Territories [..] This program immediately follows the 50 State Quarters® Program, which ended in 2008.. Also see the bill that authorized the quarter:. It does not mention the coin as a contuenation of the state quarters. In any case, this is an issue of semantics. It should not degrade the honor Ellington deserves. - Thanks, Hoshie 03:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I like the changes. Good work. However, the description of the quarter itself seems appropriate. What was your reason to take it out?--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 06:22, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't remove the description; it fixed it because it was wrong. If I did remove something, tell me and I'll restore it. - Thanks, Hoshie 20:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right. It looks intact.--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 21:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Reference Works
I just entered the reference works on the page. If you don't like the descriptions fine. Do not delete the DESOR entry. It is considered one of the ultimate reference works in the Ellington community.

--Ellingtonrecords (talk) 23:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Good addition. I am adding a bit more bibliographic info to the entries (like that 2007 is the 5th ed. of the Ellingtonia). Schubert1797 (talk) 02:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Criticism
There is very little here on critical and scholarly reception of his work, and some of what little there is lacks citation. For what it's worth, Gary Giddins, "How Come Jazz Isn't Dead", p. 39–55 in Eric Weisbard, ed., This is Pop, Harvard University Press, 2004. ISBN 0-674-01321-2 (cloth), ISBN 0-674-01344-1 (paper) cites an interesting negative remark by Rudi Blesh, a minority view but one that should probably be represented; the relevant passage is on p. 42 of the cited work, and an endnote cites "Rudi Blesh, Shining Trumpets: A History of Jazz (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1958 [1946])". Giddins cites Blesh as writing that "Printed scores are not part of jazz" (quotation from Blesh) and holding the view that "Ellington's 'tea dansant music' had no jazz content whatsoever" (quotation from Giddins on Blesh's view; the phrase "tea dansant music" is Blesh's). - Jmabel | Talk 18:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You make reasonable points Jmabel, although the Blesh quote also appears in the article on Moldy figs which you have begun. It is not a hard rule, but Wikipedians are advised to avoid repetition across articles on the policy pages. Philip Cross 18:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Rudi Blesh believed that the only jazz was totally improvised Dixieland jazz, which he did not know was written down. If you agree with him, 99% of all musicians that other more recent authorities note, are not jazz either. And Ellington never called it jazz, by the way -- he called it "American music." Owen (talk) 01:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Ofindsen

I would encourage Jmabel to choose a spot in the article that is "uncritical" and to insert a footnote there that cites Blesh and Weisbard and some of the discussion from his paragraph above. The listing of the Weisbard book in the Ellington bibliography seems inappropriate (because it is only tangentially connected with Ellington), but the footnote discussion and citation could inject Jmabel's concern into the article without cluttering the Bibliography. Then he could delete it from the Bibliography. -  Schubert1797 (talk) 04:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Separation from Edna Thompson
The passage on Ellington's marriage in 'Early career' contained a contradiction from the two sources as to when they were together in New York and split up. Other (weak) online sources suggest the Gibbs article is correct, so I retained that detail, but rewrote it because there was an unacknowledged direct quote from the article. Philip Cross (talk) 09:41, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Anachronism?
"In 1950 another emerging musical trend, the African-American popular music style known as Rhythm and Blues driven by a new generation of composers and musicians like Fats Domino and Jelly Roll Morton"

- I think that would be news to Morton (died 1941)!

Henrywgc (talk) 18:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Aura Rully
Over the last day, the following passage has been added to the article on several occasions:
 * "Supported artist: Duke also had a Rumanian-Canadian singer named Aura Rully who became the most important jazz voice in the world. He helped Aura in her career offering her after her Carnegie Hall debut one milion dollars assurance for her voice George Wein - Myself among others."

Aura Rully certainly exists (a grand total of 463 hits on Google), but I have deleted the passage on the grounds that everyone apparently associated with Ellington cannot be included, the obvious formatting problems and the use of Peacock words. Philip Cross (talk) 17:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I find she is somewhat better known as Aura Urziceanu (26,000 hits), but most of the above still stands. This is certainly peacock: "who became the most important jazz voice in the world." Using another of her professional names in a string ('"Aura Borealis" Ellington singer') results in 473 hits. Philip Cross (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

So, if you are concerned with Duke Ellington subject, i have to say you, that it`s not 100% complete...Why? Because after 1972 when you say D.E., you have to say Duke Ellington Orchestra and Aura Rully. Aura was her singer, and in every Ellington`s concert, Mood Indigo and a lot of well known songs where interpreted by Aura. Duke Ellington used to present Aura, as "Aura from Romania" and he launched her in 1972 in Newport Jazz Festival - Carnegie Hall, where she whon applause for 18 minutes and accolades as it follows : Aura's dazzling voice lends pops excitement John Kraglund - " There was nothing unexpected in the orchestral portion of last night's Toronto Symphony concert at Ontario Place. This was as it should be with Erich Kunzel on the podium and about 5,000 of his fans in attendance to hear his vigorous interpretations of pops concert standards (or standardized arrangements of non-standards). For those who are not symphony pop fans there was more excitement in much of the music by soprano soloist Aura, whose repertoire ranged from jazz to vocalized arrangements of instrumental classics, plus showtunes and disco numbers. Aura, a 33-year-old Romanian-born singer (daughter of the then concertmaster of the Bucharest Symphony) who now makes her home in Toronto as the wife of drummer Ron Rully, is better known in Europe and the United States than locally. According to report, her vocal range outstrips those of Sarah Vaughn and Cleo Laine -- extending to a B flat above Miss Laine's G above high C. After the sounds emanating from the Forum, last night, I am prepared to believe it. More important, there was admirable musicianship in her use of the voice, which has a clarity and richness that even the Forum loudspeakers could not distort.

The most agreeable evidence of her versatility was provided by a wordless arrangement of the Air from Bach's Suite No. 3, although its contrast between contralto and high soprano ranges was less dazzling than the bob version, also wordless, of Paganini's Caprice No. 24. The brooding intensity of B. Hughes' Special Way (title song of Aura's new record album) made it easy to understand why she had been favored by Duke Ellington as an interpreter of his songs.

Among the other assets of her performances were the full-throated shouting of Styne's People, from Funny Girl, and the Ighner/Wonder Everything Must Change."

Downbeat Magazine - "Aura floats the voice, almost ethereal on perfect pitch"

Coda Magazine - John Norris - "The stunning voice of Aura, whose incredible range is matched by her taste, imagination and tone control."

Toronto Star - "Aura, a voice with clarity, richness and admirable musicianship"

New York Times - Harry Stathos - "Aura, a beautiful, talented singer. Has a voice with incredible range that makes it sound more like a musical instrument, rather than notes coming out of the vocal chords." - John S. Wilson - "Aura made as dramatic and sensational a Carnegie Hall debut as even the fevered mind of an old time Hollywood script writer could imagine… Dancing across the notes way up on the threshold of the limits of hearing, ending with a high note flourish that brought the packed house to its feet and cheering!"

Canadian Composer - Richard Fohil - "Stunning singing!"

Star Week - "Aura, an original!"

The Great American Popular Singers - Henry Pleasants - "I have heard Aura sing up to the high B flat, above Cleo Laine's High G"

The Grove International Encyclopedia of Jazz - Nat Hentoff -"A phenomenal singer…"

The New Yorker - "Aura, a remarkable and beautiful soprano, Outstanding Singing."

Has been launched by George Wein also and she earned a contract with Duke Ellington since 1972 until now(with his agency).

For your interests, about Aura Rully, Aura has one of the most brilliant, expressive and improvisational voices of our time. Her interpretations of the masterful writings of the Jazz classics and original material reflect a new freshness in vocal artistry.

As a singing phenomenon, her career encompasses every possible direction, from Pop to Folklore and from Classical to Jazz, which includes concerts, television shows promotional jingles and recordings.

She has won accolades and prizes such as the prestigious Europe Cup. The European Press Prize and superlative reviews in the New York Times, Downbeat Magazine, Toronto Life and The New Yorker for her concert, records, and television appearances.

Aura has toured with world giants such as Quincy Jones, Duke Ellinton, Thad Jones, and Mel Lewis. Her appearances include such prestigious venues as the Newport Jazz Festival, Village Vanguard, and Carnegie Hall. From Tokyo to Toronto, Sydney to Stockholm, New York to Nice. Aura thrills her audiences who enjoy her within the Jazz Trio setting to The Symphony Orchestra.

So Duke Ellington for 2 years was glued with Aura, than he passed away....so, I ask you: Can you avoid this subject, about Duke`s option?........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Honest2010 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Duke Ellington Orchestra in Bucharest feat Aura, April 23, 2010. HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APisU5QIwGo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Honest2010 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Personal life
Could someone who knows about Ellington's life add something about his long-term relationships (and a general note about his numerous short-term ones)? We wouldn't need much - this isn't a gossip paper - but I think it would be reasonable to add some material on his relationships with women, for completeness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notreallydavid (talk • contribs) 01:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Academy Award for Symphony in Black?
In the Work in films and the theater section it says that Symphony in Black won the Academy Award for best musical short. I cannot find any external reference to this. (Jphn37 (talk) 13:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC))

Official website
I changed the official website to www.dukeellington.com because, well because it's the official website. Asav (talk) 04:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Two years later the two listings were "Official website" and "Official family website". I rewrote the other listing in gory detail, so to speak:
 * * Duke Ellington Legacy Big Band & Duke Ellington Legacy Band – official website of the family organization Duke Ellington Legacy
 * --P64 (talk) 20:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Pseudonyms
—now one of the External links— gives several "Variant(s)" for Ellington's name including Joe Turner, Sonny Greer, and Obie Duke. It also notes "Joe Turner and his Memphis Men, Sonny Greer and his Memphis Men; both names are pseudonyms for Duke Ellington and his orchestra"—citing Sutton, Allan. Pseudonyms on American records (1892-1942), 2004: p 305.

Drummer Sonny Greer is prominent in the article but never in the pseudonym context. 'Joe Turner' and 'Obie' do not appear at all.

--P64 (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks like a mistake best ignored, perhaps a computer generated error, and of no use for improving this article. Philip Cross (talk) 20:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Allan Sutton, A Guide to pseudonyms on American records, 1892-1942 (Greenwood, 1993) is cited re pseudonyms of the orchestra only, not of Ellington. Those two entries are easy to find now via Google Books: Joe Turner; Sonny Greer. Unfortunately Sutton provides no more info except the context "(Columbia)".
 * From the book blurb at Google (provided by the publisher?): "Recordings by Duke Ellington and his Cotton Club orchestra are to be found under 22 different pseudonyms. These are among the more than 3,000 pseudonyms unearthed by Allan Sutton in his pioneering guide to pseudonyms used on American recordings between 1892 and 1942."


 * The article covers the orchestra, or more generally the act(s), as well as the man. But templates infobox musical artist (alias=) and Persondata (ALTERNATIVE NAMES=) pertain only to Ellington personally. Is that where you suspect computer-generated error?

--P64 (talk) 20:49, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Granted the subject is not without interest, but it isn't a significant issue. In the first paragraph of the 'Cotton Club engagement' section examples are already given of the pseudonyms used by Ellington. An extensive list would be just indigestible clutter. Including Joe Turner (either the Blues singer or the pianist) or even Sonny Greer as pseudonyms in the list you found are unlikely to be human cataloguing errors with a check easy to make, hence my suggestion of a computer glitch. Philip Cross (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Pulitzer Prize
Ellington won a special Pulitzer Prize in 1999, his centennial year. Our own article Pulitzer Prize for Music [1943 to present] includes a lot of information about the scope of the award in prose sections 1 and 2, History and Criticism, generally with references. That includes much more than we say here about Ellington's 1965 experience and his reaction to it (History lead paragraph). Also lengthy quotation from the 2004 announcement of reform, "{...} While Special Awards and Citations continue to be an important option, the Pulitzer Board believes that the Music Prize ..." (end of same section).

Among other things, it's clear that Giddins 2004 (now ref#53 in this article) is a poor source --WP:RELIABLE but not reliable-- as the author of that reference surmised. --P64 (talk) 01:50, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Duke Ellington. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090622191412/http://www.billystrayhorn.com:80/biography.htm to http://www.billystrayhorn.com/biography.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150626165648/http://www.grammy.com/PressReleases/443_466_Hall%20of%20Fame%20release%20FINAL.pdf to http://www.grammy.com/PressReleases/443_466_Hall%20of%20Fame%20release%20FINAL.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 03:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Last words
I have removed Ellington's 'last words' as I'm not confident the source is good enough. The article previously read:

"His last words were, 'Music is how I live, why I live and how I will be remembered.'"

I don't think this source is particularly trustworthy. I've found various other sources on the Internet that have the same quote, but none attribute any source to the quote.

It seems like this is the kind of 'last words' that can't really be independently be verified. Unless we're able to find strong sources, we should, in my opinion, treat this quote as if it's a myth. (I'd be delighted to be notified it's not.) Uncle Alf (talk) 20:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Removal of RS content in Tribute section: China Valles' Duke Ellington quote
The following edit, which I posted in the Tribute section of this article, appears to be a cause for concern:

"Noted jazz authority and Miami jazz radio broadcaster, China Valles attributed his nickname, 'The Maharajah' to Ellington. He said: 'He had a way of describing things like no other. Once, I went back stage to see him after he performed. He opened his dressing room door and said, `Ahhh, it's the Maharajah, Purveyor of Swirls.' 'What a fascinating mind. I played records, so I was a purveyor of swirls. Over time, it stuck.'"

The quote was reliably sourced and the story of that nickname has been widely reported. Additionally, the quote comes from someone who was, not only a longtime personal friend of Ellington's, but as a jazz authority and eminently respected jazz radio broadcaster for decades in his own right, certainly a noteworthy individual. So it would seem that placing the quote in the tribute section of this article - alongside other quotes from other jazz individuals - is entirely appropriate. So I would appreciate an explanation by, and would welcome a discussion with, any editor objecting to its inclusion. X4n6 (talk) 18:48, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I objected on the basis that China Valles is an obscure individual for most users. So far, the article about him only has citations sourced to publications based in Florida. For Californians, New Yorkers or those in the mid-West, let alone those of us who are not American, the passage is likely to seem undue. Philip Cross (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * While I appreciate your response, I disagree with your conclusion, because I believe your argument is flawed. Valles is certainly no less "obscure" than Molefi Kete Asante or Martin Williams who are already quoted in this section. Valles is also certainly not "obscure" to the millions of listeners who followed him during a career that spanned over five decades. Nor was he considered "obscure" to the newspapers which marked his passing in headlines using terms like "pioneering" and "legendary" and when the area's multiple Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper of record's headline uses the term "icon." Also, please understand that simply because an editor from another region (or country) may be unfamiliar with major radio broadcasters in other parts of the world, that does not make them "obscure." No more so than I would call Jimmy Savile obscure, even though, to many readers/editors on this side of the pond, he is. Your argument violates the very point of WP:UNKNOWNHERE, while your sole reliance on the article, as currently listed in the stub I created just days ago, violates WP:NEXIST. A simple Google search of Valles and Ellington turns up much more. As does this sampling of photos of Valles with Ellington, Nancy Wilson here, and here, Lionel Hampton, Carmen McRae and Stanley Turrentine. But perhaps, equally importantly, your argument fails to appreciate that regional radio was the single most important method of disseminating jazz music for decades. So it is ill-advised to be dismissive about the historical significance or importance of these broadcasters, just as it violates our practices here. In any event, I believe the quote has value because, within the Tribute section of the article, it lends an important personal observation about Ellington the man, which is not otherwise provided. Nor do I believe the 3 lines of type to do this constitutes undue - certainly not when Schuller's quote in this section, currently appears with 3 lines of type in blockquote and a newspaper writer's opinion received 2 lines of type, as does the Williams quote. Especially not in an article which contains over 500 lines of type. However, if you still feel the quote doesn't belong in this section of the article, could you please suggest a different section? If not, how can we resolve this? X4n6 (talk) 21:30, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I also removed it, because the content is about Valles, not about Ellington, and is out of place in this article. The nickname is a lot more important to Valles than to Ellington. It belongs in the Valles article, but not here. — Diannaa (talk) 13:26, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I saw your removal and reason. The content is really about Valles, as a longtime friend of Ellington, saying: "He had a way of describing things like no other... What a fascinating mind." Contextually, the nickname story simply illustrates the content. And it was placed in the section called "Tributes." So it was hardly "off topic." To the contrary, while you may believe it is not a tribute, I'll simply note that Merriam-Webster's dictionary definition of "tribute" disagrees. Finally, regarding what level of importance Ellington attributed to the nickname for his friend, I certainly wouldn't presume to speak for Ellington. Nor should you. X4n6 (talk) 20:23, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a tribute to Valles, not to Ellington, who is the subject of this article. — Diannaa (talk) 14:14, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It is very useful that you've acknowledged that the quote is a "tribute" since, by definition, it could not be about oneself. So it is not "out of place" in the "Tribute" section. The subject of Valles' tribute is clearly Ellington, as he's about whom Valles is speaking. So this quote is a tribute about Ellington; in an article with Ellington as the subject; and within which, there is a section entitled: "Tributes." It doesn't get more plain than that. The other editor also appears to have dropped his objection. X4n6 (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see any indication that User:Philip Cross has dropped his objection. — Diannaa (talk) 13:43, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Diannaa is quite right. In my opinion, Tribute sections should be short and highly selective, otherwise they are liable to develop into sections of near infinite length. So comments from people of the stature of Gunther Schuller and Martin Williams are entirely legitimate, but whatever lesser known figures have said or written does not carry as much weight. I have searched for articles about China Valles from the Chicago Sun-Times, Los Angeles Times, New York Times, Washington Post and Washington Times. According to Google, none of theses papers have mentioned him, leading me to assume that his notability is restricted to Florida (admittedly a state with a population of 20 million) rather than further afield in the United States. Sorry, but I do not see any reason to concede to you. Philip Cross (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Philip Cross, since you had gone several days without responding here, while continuing to post elsewhere, I said it "appeared" you had dropped your objection. In fact you had, until User:Diannaa pinged you. However, like Diannaa, you've still left unanswered my last responses to you. Your concerns about a tribute section are not unique as they could easily apply to anything. It's the slippery slope argument; which is a logical fallacy. There is nothing to conclude that Valles' quote about Ellington would lead to anything more than Valles' quote about Ellington. I'm also not following what you hoped to prove by searching for Valles in the newspapers you selected. I was especially amused by your inclusion of the "Washington Times", which, as most people know, is anything but a newspaper of record. While the reasonable conclusion is that had Valles had the major career in those areas, that he had in the major area he did broadcast from, he would have enjoyed the same level of significant coverage he received from the Miami Herald, the Miami News and others. But using your argument, I found the article on Ant & Dec contained nothing sourced to any of those publications either. So? And had you searched for Valles in Billboard, a far more relevant - and national publication - you would have found at least 3 articles on Valles. If you had searched books, you would have also found him referenced in at least three books. I even found him mentioned in newspapers as far away as the Detroit Free Press, the Arizona Republic and the Arizona Daily Sun. And if you had searched for it, you might have even found the complete transcript of an interview Valles did with Ellington, dating back to 1966! The real point, though, is: a tribute section should include tributes about a subject; which are reliably sourced; which come from sources with knowledge of the subject; which contribute something of unique value; and which come from noteworthy individuals. The Valles quote accomplishes all five. Neither will the sky fall nor the article be permanently damaged by including Valles' mere 3 lines of type. Any reader wondering who Valles is, can simply click the link to his article, just as they can with everyone else in that section. I can also say that more people have most likely heard his 50 years of radio broadcasts than have read, or even heard of, Martin Williams, Molefi Kete Asante, or possibly even Schuller. Because most people don't read about music - they listen to it. But several days ago, I asked you how we could resolve this. Rather than worrying about "conceding" to me (who really cares?), can you offer a compromise? X4n6 (talk) 00:28, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * X4n6, I think it's time for you to drop it now, as consensus appears to be against you this time. — Diannaa (talk) 01:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Diannaa, when you make a well-reasoned and winning argument, which hasn't happened; or at least respond to mine (also hasn't happened); then will be the time to consider dropping it. But at the moment, there is no basis for what you're asking, beyond a "consensus" of two. Or not, as a compromise request is still pending. X4n6 (talk) 03:14, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Request for comment

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should this article include information about radio broadcaster China Valles being given a nickname by Duke Ellingtion? The content is that contained in. — Diannaa (talk) 12:53, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Comment: Unfortunately, this question misstates the issue. The real question is: Should this article contain content about Duke Ellington, from a radio broadcaster, China Valles, who knew him? The discussion can be reviewed here. X4n6 (talk) 19:24, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Opinions

 * No; the content is about Valles, not about Ellington, and is out of place in this article. The nickname is a lot more important to Valles than to Ellington. It belongs in the Valles article, but not here. — Diannaa (talk) 12:54, 1 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Strong Yes; The above claim is incorrect. The content is a short, 3-line quote about Ellington from a prominent jazz DJ who had been a personal friend of his for decades. The nickname is just context for a story that provides insight into how Ellington's mind worked. Many have called him a musical genius, but nothing in this article addresses Ellington's mind from a personal perspective. This quote does. X4n6 (talk) 19:24, 1 June 2016 (UTC)


 * No; an obscure figure for most readers (3 mentions in Billboard, wow), one out of many hundreds of people, perhaps more, who have recounted personal anecdotes about Duke Ellington from direct contact with him. No great reason for inclusion. Philip Cross (talk) 19:41, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. I won't respond to other opinions unless addressed, but the prior comment merits one only because it came from a user who twice ignored offers of compromise that would have made this RfC unnecessary. But I'll add that for most readers today, sadly, even Ellington could be called an "obscure figure." To some even jazz itself is "obscure." So that's hardly a cogent threshold. Nor should users be dismissive of an individual who had a 50-year, major market, broadcasting career. Valles was inducted into jazz halls of fame, received significant national and regional coverage and was referenced in at least 3 published volumes. He had millions of listeners and jazz legends like Ellington himself called him a friend. So whether individual users (or readers) have heard of him or not - or Ellington or jazz itself for that matter - is really the exact opposite question an encyclopedia has to ask. Besides, this RfC isn't even about Valles' notability, which is clear. It's about whether his anecdote reveals a little something about the way Ellington's mind worked that would be useful or of interest to the readers. I believe it does. X4n6 (talk) 20:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No; the content is about Valles and belongs there if anywhere. What is special to Duke E. about this incident? He has a sense of humour? Pincrete (talk) 21:02, 1 June 2016 (UTC)


 * No - I don't think the information being discussed is relevant or notable enough to be discussed in a person's biography. If anything, the information should be mentioned in the page of Valles, and not in Ellington's.  What makes this statement so valuable and important that it needs to be included?   Comatmebro  User talk:Comatmebro 21:32, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Response Pincrete and Comatmebro, I wasn't sure if your questions wanted answers. But the quote gives some insight into Ellington's personality and unique way of thinking. That's it. Short, non-controversial content for the "Tribute" section. I think we've lost proportion. I don't get how it causes irreparable damage. That harm has never been explained. It should be a minor copyedit. X4n6 (talk) 05:14, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Who mentioned irreperable damage? It simply adds nothing relevant IMO. Pincrete (talk) 06:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. We don't agree, but pretty sure we both know of many cases where ppl don't agree on relevance. But it doesn't justify RfCs. They just get over it. As this doesn't do damage and isn't controversial, IMO neither does this. X4n6 (talk) 07:51, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * No: I agree with others above that this anecdote is not appropriate content for the Ellington article. It involves the wrong end of the telescope: a remark looming larger for Valles than Ellington. While I can see the counter-argument proposed above, I would be wary of regarding any compliment paid by a musician to a promoter, DJ or record label owner as providing disinterested personal insight. In this instance, the coverage of the anecdote in the linked China Valles article seems to suffice. AllyD (talk) 08:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * No: Gives no insight into Ellington, adds nothing to the article. Should be in Valles' page, not here.  pgbrown (talk)  18:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No - Though uncontroversial, the quotation is not necessarily relevant and does a poor job of explaining "personality". Meatsgains (talk) 23:36, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No This article does not need tangential factoids. Mootros (talk) 06:22, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. The !vote seems to be leaning strongly in the other direction, and it's ultimately a minor difference in content, but I'll comment briefly all the same. I'm not at all compelled by arguments made above which seem to take the quote to be more representative of Valles being flattered than of any significant insight into Ellington.  The fact that the circumstances of the observation happen to touch upon a nickname that Ellington gave Valle is an entirely incidental matter; looking at the balance of that quote, it's clearly focused on Ellington.  I think if we careful consider the wording, it becomes obvious that this quote, with its focus, would be drastically more out of place in Valles' article than it would be here.  In any event, personally I don't find this little allegory to be substantially different from the many similar little accounts that typically form a significant portion of a biographical article, especially when talking about artists and entertainers--and which together often go a long way to fleshing out the idiosyncratic nature of a given figure.  This is a small comment, sourced, and non-controversial.  I don't think it would be at all out-of-place.  S n o w  let's rap 05:38, 25 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

puff piece
This article is FAR too laudatory. Fact is Ellington was hardly central to jazz development. Nearly no band played his stuff, unlike that of Henderson, Lunceford, Hines, and Basie. He seems to have hated playing for dancers and it's telling that he was most popular in the early '40s, when dancing was on the way out. In the '50s he was as dead as Frank Sinatra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.28.102.27 (talk) 02:26, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

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Personal Life section is horrible
The Personal Life section of this individual's article makes him out to be an anti-family sex fiend. And no, I'm not black. I'm not sure why we need to know more than who his children/spouses were i.e. dates of marriage, birth, etc. It should be a quick read. As it is now, he's "[leaving] his family" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BC3A:1E30:14E8:5EE1:FC6E:C377 (talk) 05:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

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Removing COI tag
I am removing the tag added by in February 2018. In the absence of explanation here or in the original edit, I am not clear what was the concern in this case of an article developed by many editors about a subject deceased over 40 years ago and without substantial recent edits by any particular editor. However, if there is a specific concern, it can be discussed here? AllyD (talk) 08:24, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Issues
Am i mistaken in recalling Will Marion Cook as a mentor of Duke Ellington? No mention i can find in either article. --Jerzy (t) 12:50, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC) This article needs some grammar work. Commas and pauses in spoken English do not correspond, and many of the sentences are run on. Perhaps some kind soul will add their efforts in cleaning this article down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.114.169 (talk) 05:43, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ellington knew Cook and took his advice but mentor is too strong a word. 198.30.138.91 (talk) 02:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Ofindsen

Duke Farmhand23 (talk) 02:17, 26 December 2019 (UTC)