Talk:Edgar Allan Poe/Archive 3

UVA Alum
Is he really an alumni if he didn't graduate? The definition on Wikipedia would say yes, but generally I thought it only referred to graduates, not just attendees. Admittedly, I am biased however, so I'm not changing anything. Alex 17:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Online definitions generally seem to include all former students--see e.g. . Nareek 17:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Simpson Writer?
EAP 1809-1849

The simpsons came out 140yrs. after he died, unless I'm Mistaken.....

Vandalism Maybe? Ass_Kicker_The_Great —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ass Kicker The Great (talk • contribs) 23:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
 * he was creditted as a Simpsons writer for Treehouse of Horror. The third segment was basically James Earl Jones reading parts of the poem while the Simpson characters acted it out. So, he's credited as a Simpsons writer and I put the category on his page. -- Scorpion 04:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Assessment: Importance
I'm afraid I have trouble considering most authors to be of "Top" importance, at least for science fiction. Top-importance are whole sections in the main article. Probably Heinlein (mentioned six times in the article), but after that it's hazy. I don't consider Poe to be the most important SF writer of the 19th century (that would have to be Wells, IMO). I changed the assessment to "High"; he did help define the short story form. Avt tor 06:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I had assessed him as "Top" because he is considered by Wikipedia to be of Vital Importance to all languages that Wikipedia is provided in, and I left a note to that effect next to the template. -Malkinann 10:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I agree that a subject is of equal importance in all categories. But I won't argue the point. I apologize for not noticing your comment. Avt tor 22:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * In reference to science fiction in particular, I'd read the essay by John Tresch, Extra! Extra! Poe invents science fiction!. I think that may show some importance. Midnightdreary 15:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

New section for Death?
I'd like to suggest a separate page be made about Poe's death, including theories, research, the reburial, etc. The full article has gotten quite long and I think this is a very appropriate part to pull out. Thoughts? Midnightdreary 18:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've gone ahead and done it. Feel free to debate if it was a good idea; we can always move it back. Midnightdreary 16:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The article needed summarization, so removing sections to subordinate pages is a good idea. This section was particularly appropriate as most people would be interested in Poe's work and cultural impact; his death is merely a curious detail. And, really, high five for an excellent topic and title. Avt tor 17:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for the pat on the back; I'm going to get back to this in a few days and see what touch-up is needed. My next suggestion for a new page is for Poe in popular culture or something along those lines. Midnightdreary 18:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I made an article on Edgar Allan Poe and music a while back--I've been thinking that an article on Edgar Allan Poe and film would be useful. Nareek 22:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * How about Edgar Allan Poe in television and film? Does that work? =) Midnightdreary 18:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

GA Passed
I passed this as good article. It has a lot of good information and is quite readable. The sources are reliable and all the facts I spot checked seemed to check out. Even, to my surprise, the one about Poes essay on cryptography contributing to the start up of the USA's code breaking effort in WWI. I do think the article is a little long and I second the suggestion I see on this discussion page of breaking all the popular culture and film stuff out into a separate article. I think this article should focus on his life and work and his influence on other writers. Rusty Cashman 10:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Batman: Nevermore
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Batman: Nevermore series of comics. This 5-issue comic is told from the perspective of Edgar Allan Poe, and a Batman-like figure shows up as "The Raven." I have only read one issue, so I am not suited to add a full journal-style entry, but I felt it deserved a mention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.8.64.2 (talk) 17:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

A formal review of this one-off can be found at: http://www.popmatters.com/comics/batman-nevermore.shtml


 * Frankly, I'd be okay if we lay off all the Poe references in popular culture. It's really a never-ending list, and this article is cluttered enough as is! But, if someone wants to add it, I wouldn't stop them, but I'd recommend The Raven in popular culture instead. Midnightdreary 18:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The solution is for a Edgar Allan Poe in popular culture (as mentioned above). There is a good section on it here but, as you say, it is going to start unbalancing the entry if it gets much bigger, as I found when I helped create Nikola Tesla in popular culture and Nikola Tesla in popular culture (it reached a point when people were adding things in, other people were taking them out, not because they didn't belong but because the section was getting too big). I'd be happy to do the split if people gave it the thumbs up. To the mystery editor: I have linked it in here and if you are feeling enthusiastic then get stuck in and we can sort out adding it here at some later point (the important thing is to get the entry rolling). (Emperor 19:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC))


 * We keep going back to this idea, which I still support. Keep in mind that we already have two sections with their own articles (Edgar Allan Poe and music and Edgar Allan Poe in television and film) I say, Be bold and go for it, Emperor. Midnightdreary 20:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well it wasn't so much about boldness I have dropped similar suggestions into a number of entries with similar issues. However, Poe is the easiest to do as it is all there really (although I'd like to see more on Poe's appearances in films) so it is done. Its pretty much based on other I've done and I will give more thought to expanding it but the good work of previous editors have got it off to a good start. (Emperor 21:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC))


 * Nicely done. I think it's about time this article gets nominated for Featured Article again! Midnightdreary 21:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Suicide?
He attempted suicide in 1948? I don´t think so. Please, prove it. Sürrell 16.03.07. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.52.161.132 (talk) 11:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Source added, though I don't like where the sentence is lumped in between information about his actual death. But, anyway, there it is, as requested. Midnightdreary 16:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "He may have attempted"; thank you very much. Sürrell (Spanish Wik.) 19.03.07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.52.161.132 (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Swapping pictures?
In the Edgar_Allan_Poe section, I'd like to swap out the picture of Poe (Image:Edgar Allan Poe.jpg) to a picture of his wife Image:VirginiaPoe.jpg, as this is (somewhat oddly, I feel) the section in which her death is discussed. Thoughts? -Malkinann 09:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the current picture, and it would be a shame to lose it. Truth be told, it's a great representation of what Poe actually looked like throughout much of his career, despite the famous image of him and his moustache towards the end of his life. As for Virginia's death in this section, it seems appropriate because of the influence on his work. Anyway, if people are more interested in Virginia, they can visit her article. Good idea, but not sure it's needed. :) Midnightdreary 16:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I moved the pic down to another section so, assuming the subject is deemed appropriate, an image could be added. There is certainly room for another pic or two. --Evb-wiki 16:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Poe in Pawtucket?
I have never heard or read anything that ever mentions Pawtucket, RI as a place where Poe served an apprenticeship. He did spend time in his later years in nearby Providence, but an apprenticeship in Pawtucket? Where did this information come from? I strongly believe this is an eggregous factual error that needs immediate correction. 72.200.147.152 16:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)Richard Kucal
 * I found nothing on any time he spent in Pawtucket - or an internship before enrolling at UVA, for that matter. So, I've removed it. Good catch. -Midnightdreary 20:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Reference 7
The Note 7 down in the References links to a non-existent article in the wikisource. I believe the correct article is at http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Death_of_Edgar_Allan_Poe is it not? At least it would work Cerothought 14:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

fixed. :) -Malkinann 21:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Poe in London
Given that there seems to be minimal content about Poe's childhood years in London, I am proposing removing this article from the scope of WikiProject London. --Lang rabbie 20:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I don't think it belongs there at all. --Evb-wiki 22:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with that. There's not much extant information about his time in London anyway. So, what's here is about all you'll ever get. -Midnightdreary 01:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * For the record, Poe's William Wilson is a semi-autobiographical account of his chidhood residence in Stoke Newington, London. Also there is a recent novel called 'The American Boy', which takes Poe's schoolboy years in London as its theme. Colin4C 19:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Very true. Though the novel is irrelevant, the part about William Wilson is important. That info should probably be in the William Wilson article though, not this one. Speaking of which, that article could use some help, so feel free to give it a go! -Midnightdreary 22:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

about one of his poems
he died in 1849, but one of his poems named "alone" was made in 1875. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.239.152.48 (talk • contribs)
 * Actually, if you read the article on "Alone" you'd see it was probably written in 1829 - it was published posthumously after it was "rediscovered." -Midnightdreary 14:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Review for A-Class
There is a discussion going on right now to rate this article as A-Class. Right now the concensus seems to be in the "Oppose" direction. So, let's take it as a kick in the pants to get this article up to par. Review the discussion here to see what can be done. - Midnightdreary 03:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * One of the things they emphasized is that the article focuses too much on legacy and influence on literature rather than biography. To help fix that, I've broken the biography section down into subsections in the hopes that they can be expanded upon. I'll also strongly suggest we have a separate article for Poe's influence on literature (no idea what to title it). Discussion? -Midnightdreary 15:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Homework question
For an english finial, I have to analysis a short story, I wanted to do one by Poe, but I don't know, and can't seem to find the title. It is about a party, everyone is in costume, and it talks about different rooms, which each have a color theme. Does anyone know the title? Thanks. 65.115.136.98 00:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)NG


 * These talk pages are for discussions about improving the article. Please ask questions at Reference desk. You are thinking of "The Masque of the Red Death". --Blainster 20:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Moldavia
I read that Poe's great house was called Moldavia. Does anyone know why it was called Moldavia and why the name was given to a house? Also, why isn't that mentioned in the article? --Thus Spake Anittas 23:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That wasn't Poe's house, it was his foster-father John Allan's. He purchased the house in 1828, by then Poe was already estranged from the Allans and living in Baltimore. I'd say, because he never lived there, it's not particularly relevant to this article that his foster father bought a house and named it. -Midnightdreary 14:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I take that back (I was trying to go from memory). Allan actually bought the house in 1825; it might be worth a brief mention - even so, I couldn't find any info about where the name came from. -Midnightdreary 14:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the name most come from Moldavia, but why was it given that name? That's what interests me, perhaps because I am from that region. A quick google resulted in a photo of the house, which was large. Are you sure he never lived there? That sounds a bit too strange. --Thus Spake Anittas 14:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * John Allan didn't name it - it already had the name. It seems to have been owned by a flour merchant named Joseph Gallego. Feel free to research him. (And sorry about my mistake that Poe never lived there - I already mentioned I was wrong ;) Anyway, I added a mention in the article. -Midnightdreary 15:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I did some research on the house and found some interesting info. I may even write an article on it. :p --Thus Spake Anittas 15:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Hubert Selby Jr.
Poe's influence on Hubert Selby Jr. is not mentioned anywhere, despite a prominent scene in The Queen Is Dead portion of Last Exit To Brooklyn involving the protagonist Georgette reading excerpts from The Raven to her company. 90.196.16.134 00:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Poe has influenced so many writers and been referenced in so many other works of literature, art, and film, it's impossible to be totally comprehensive. If Poe had such a major influence on Hubert Selby Jr, that info can be on his article, though. =) -Midnightdreary 00:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Poe Toaster
Shouldn't a mention of the Poe Toaster be made in this article? Does anyone want to BE BOLD Jacroe 18:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point, but I'm not sure it's particularly relevant to this article. It's actually highlighted in the Death of Edgar Allan Poe article, and he also his own article, Poe Toaster. This article is long enough as it is, I'd say, and there's a lot of non-biographical stuff bogging it down. -Midnightdreary 19:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The Grave Visitor
I'm sure I've heard (and read on a previous version of this very page), that Edgar Allan Poe's grave or memorial was/is visited once a year by a mysterious man/woman and that this person leaves a rose and konyac (or something/s to that effect). Is this true? If so why is there no mention of it in the article? (Answer directly to my talk page if possible, SKC not signed in.).
 * Yeah, that information was mostly moved to Death of Edgar Allan Poe. Since it's been mentioned on this talk page, I'll probably add a brief synopsis tomorrow. Someone actually tried adding it earlier, but it was copyrighted text. (As per your request, I'm responding on your talk page too, by the way) -Midnightdreary 04:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've put these two comments together and, based on these suggestions, I've added a brief mention of the Poe Toaster to the page. I think it's brief, but the main page has much more information. I think we lost the original mention when we created the Death of Edgar Allan Poe article but I'm not sure if it was on purpose or not. But, either way, I have acquiesced. =) -Midnightdreary 17:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

.. would smell as sweet
As a child EAP dreamed of becoming a poet. At birth he was already 3/4 of the way there..

--Philopedia 11:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Preserved Homes
The article states that the only two homes still around are in PA and MD. This is ridiculous to anyone from the Bronx in NY since he has a cottage still preserved as a landmark/museum. http://www.museumregister.com/US/NewYork/Bronx/Fordham/PoeCottage.html
 * Sorry to be so ridiculous to people from the Bronx... but the article doesn't actually say that those are the only two. In fact, there's even a picture of the Bronx cottage. I agree, though, that some mention of it should also exist in the Preserved homes subsection... Maybe you'd like to update it yourself? -Midnightdreary 18:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

New navigation box
I'm looking for advice on a new template for a Poe navigation box of all of his works. I'm not sure it's necessarily needed, so I'm looking for opinions. The original is clean and simple, the new version is a bit clunky and possibly larger than it needs to be. Feel free to respond on my talk page or right here. Template:Edgar Allan Poe (original) vs. (new) User:Midnightdreary/test -Midnightdreary 00:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've already gotten a response for this and I'll answer a couple of her questions here. Really, I don't think it's a needed change, but I think these navboxes have been getting a little flashier (this one is based on Template:Herman Melville and Template:Charles Dickens). And, really, fellow Poe-fans, we can't let them be better than Poe's! Seriously, if anyone can find a way to make the text smaller in the proposed new version, I think it's worth it; otherwise, the current one is just fine. -Midnightdreary 00:46, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm still not fussed, but it does look a little cleaner. -Malkinann 01:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You are correct--the nav box has gotten cluttered. I would suggest making it a pure navigation box and inserting a separate bibliography into this article (or as its own article) per Manual of Style (lists of works). The use of nav boxes at bibliographies is fraught with trouble, not the least that they can provide far less info than a fleshed out bibliography. I have just reinserted a full bibliography in the Charles Dickens article b/c myself and other editors were troubled by all the missing info. Again, please see Manual of Style (lists of works) for info on listing the works of authors. Best,--Alabamaboy 00:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am certainly not a fan of bibliographies. Keep in mind that every time that this article is under peer review or up for featured article review it is consistently shot down due to its length. Adding a bibliography would make it considerably longer, making it even harder to reach the quality we are hoping for. And that Wikipedia policy says nothing about requiring bibliographies; just how to set them up if you put one in. --Midnightdreary 01:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The box is in such tiny print that I had to increase the size on my monitor to read it - clutter is definitely a problem. I do not think that having a bibliography will cause you trouble at FA, if it is done well and if the rest of the article is done well. I have found that FAC reviewers start picking all over articles when only some parts of it are poorly done; I have successfully shepherded Mary Wollstonecraft, Anna Laetitia Barbauld and Sarah Trimmer (all articles verging on the size limit, if not tipping over) through the FA process, all painlessly, and they all have bibliographies, so I am unconvinced of some anti-bibliography cabal there. Since Poe's bibliography may end up being long, you might have to fork it off (as I did for Mary Martha Sherwood and Joseph Priestley). I would suggest that this box be changed into the single line box with categories available for clicking like the eighteenth-century British children's literature template (see the bottom of the Sarah Trimmer for an example). Awadewit | talk  06:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In the FA process, people shoot down endless lists of books, albums, ect., which provide no context or added info. A good bibliography provides much more info than any simple list. In Poe's case, I'd suggest a short bibliography in the main article with a main article link to a complete bibliography. Personally, I'd oppose any author's article from reaching either FA or GA status if it lacks a bibliography. That said, this article is a really good one and I believe with more references and a bibliography you'd have a good chance at making FA status. I'd be happy to help the article reach FA status and work on making a short bibliography which would satisfy people here while forking the majority of the bibliography into its own article. Best, --Alabamaboy 13:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Alabamaboy and, like (I assume) him, I would also oppose an article on an author that lacked a list of works. Do we know what the standard scholarly bibliography of Poe's works is? Awadewit | talk  16:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Updates to come
Based on discussions here and elsewhere (notably the WikiProject Biography discussion that denied A-Class status to this article), I'll be making some updates here. A) I think I'll be separating most of the "Legacy" related information into its own article, perhaps Edgar Allan Poe's influence or something along those lines. B) Additionally, I'll be creating a bibliography article with a selected bibliography to be put on the main page. Any suggestions how I choose what's selected to be represented on the main article? Any disagreements with these two updates? Feel free to discuss. --Midnightdreary 22:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Selected bibliography has been added, right before the Poe in popular culture section. I started with 5 poems and 10 tales. There's also a link to a full Bibliography of Edgar Allan Poe (it took some time, so I'm glad it's done). This is an ongoing project and I'd love some help! :) --Midnightdreary 22:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Is anybody reading this? Any advice on whether or not the "Legacy" section should be broken off? Also, if anyone usually watches this page, keep an extra close eye because semi-protection has ended. --Midnightdreary 02:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that the "Legacy" section is quite meaty, and would make a good article in itself. I suggest you go for it! I haven't checked the page in a long time, but I'll keep an eye out now that the semi-protection has ended.Archiesteel 15:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Split
Please split off the legacy section - in this article, the portion on his legacy overshadows the portion dedicated to his life!!! After that, for further development, we could put it up for peer review, or renominate it for the biography wikiproject's A-class assessment.-Malkinann 23:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you agree! I really think taking it out would make the possibility of reaching A-class or a successful, positive Peer Review would be much more likely once that's done. Any other comments? --Midnightdreary 00:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree it needs doing. I would slightly quibble about the name "literary influences" as there are sections on "cryptography" and "Preserved homes". So perhaps just "influences" or "legacy" - either is fine as long as it is general enough for the content (or you could end up with a situation in which material doesn't fit and can't comfortably be moved back, so it is lost). Nothing major - the important thing is the split but it'd be handy getting the name right to avoid too much moving. (Emperor 01:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC))
 * I'm not keen on the name either... anyone have better suggestions? Something simple and elegant? --Midnightdreary 04:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Edgar Allan Poe's legacy ? -Malkinann 00:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems good. As I said either "Edgar Allan Poe's legacy" or "Edgar Allan Poe's influence" is fine by me. One thing though - what are the precedents in other entries? (Emperor 00:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC))
 * Some examples: William Shakespeare and Ernest Hemmingway. Not sure if they quite cover the same territory. How about leave the preserved homes behind and move the rest to "Edgar Allan Poe's influence"? (Emperor 00:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

Another point - I've found Articles for deletion/References to Oscar Wilde in popular culture, which doesn't augre well for the Edgar Allan Poe in popular culture page. -Malkinann 00:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Never fear there is a critical difference - the Oscar Wilde entry was a collection of mentions of Wilde or his work or allusions to Wilde and his life. All of which is trivia and almost impossible to source. The Poe one is about Poe as a character in media and is tightly focused with a clear remit and is also easy enough to source (unless it is a very minor walk on - in which case it is trivia and gets removed). (Emperor 01:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC))


 * Split is done. Just copied the legacy section (that I hope was right) to another page. Basically, the entire "legacy and lore" portion. That was moved and the page roughly formatted the best I could. It should do for now.  Zchris87v  08:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I wish we'd agreed upon a name first. But, at least it's done and the article here looks much cleaner, crisper, and with less bitter aftertaste. Soon, though, we'll need to add some kind of summary about the literary influence to this page. Some of those other sections however (such as Preserved homes) may need to come back to this one, or the new article might need a new name. --Midnightdreary 14:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)