Talk:Edgar Allan Poe in popular culture

Good start
This is a good start... But, should this be an overview of all Poe in pop culture info? That would include, I'm assuming, all the film/TV and music stuff (links to main pages under a section header). It seems right now it's only focused on literature, which is okay, but in that case the article should be "Edgar Allan Poe in literature." I think it would be convenient to use this as a starting point to, well, all the pop culture references, allusions, interpretations, etc. Thoughts? Midnightdreary 00:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes there is a bit of naming problem. "X in popular culture deal specifically with someone as a fictional character. To this end Edgar Allan Poe in television and film and Edgar Allan Poe and music are either confusing or misnamed. They are specifically for adaptations of Poe's work. I am now removing things from thre about Poe as a fictional character and it should become clearer. A renaming of those two secitons might be a good idea. Like Edgar Allan Poe's work adapted for television and film and Edgar Allan Poe's work adapted for music, etc. to fully clarify. However, that might cut out allusions to his work so they might be OK as long as everyone is clear about what goes where. (Emperor 02:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC))


 * OK I've doen the mvoe and checked through and the other entries look OK. I have added notes of clarification in the "see also" sections of each page. (Emperor 02:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC))

Edgar Allan Poe IV?
Edgar Allan Poe had no children. Hence, he cannot have any descendents. The claim added to the article that this supposed "Edgar Allan Poe IV" actor is a descendent of Poe is fraudulent. I'm removing it. Wje 06:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to put it back and reword it. I think "descendent" and "direct descendent" are a bit different. Let me know how it looks in its new version. Midnightdreary 15:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion of non-notable or unclear entries
This article contains a lot of redlinked four- or five-word entries, simply listing a book (which has no Wikipedia page) by an author (who is similarly unreferenced). At the very least these entries should include some clarification as to how Poe is used in the works, and if neither the work nor the author has been judged notable by the process of inclusion in Wikipedia, we might consider removing some of them altogether.

Unless someone else wants to do it between now and then, I think I'll go through and make some of these changes myself in the next few days. I wanted to open the subject to discussion here so that hopefully some of the entries can be salvaged by people who know what they're actually about, before they are deleted. PaladinWhite 16:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I wonder if we can set our own suggested guidelines for what makes additions worthwhile to this article (and similar ones like Edgar Allan Poe and music, Edgar Allan Poe in television and film and The Raven in popular culture), and stick that on the top of this talk page. Context is always important, as are full sentences (seriously, people). =) -Midnightdreary 16:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. With other similar entries what I've tended to do is remove troublesome entries and drop them into the talk page. If people object to their removal then they can always put it back and expand on it. Quite a few troublesome one are left over from the move from the main entry and those with redlinked books and authors should be taken out asap (possibly leaving in the Murder of Poe, perhaps). If no one has yet got around to writing about either book or author and hasn't bothered explaining why it should be here then we shouldn't have to live with it. If we are agreed on this (and it looks like we are) I'll go through it later and whip out the obvious examples and drop them in here.


 * Criteria for inclusion? Basically this entry is for the appearance of Poe as a fictional character. The TV & film and music entries are for adaptations of Poe's work into those media (I have suggested they have their names changed to make this clear) and The Raven is for mentions and allusions to The Raven in pop culture. There won't be much cross over (as Raven mentions get moved to that entry for example) although sometimes things get awafully "meta" as with the Masters of Horror in which the story weaves Poe into the Black Cat suggesting the "real" events influenced his writing of the book - so it is legitimate to have it on both.


 * Hope that helps explain my thinking behind this. (Emperor 16:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC))


 * I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one with this thought. Re:Midnightdreary, I don't believe it's appropriate for such a small group of editors to develop and enforce a new (specific) policy, and in reality, I don't think we need one. We just need to apply existing policies appropriately, for instance, Notability (books), films, and people.


 * We can have this page cleaned up in no time - clearly, there is no shortage of willingness to contribute. PaladinWhite 16:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Tidy up
Following on from the above discussion I have tagged up some of the entries requesting a sentence on how they fit in this entry (using: - copy and paste it in to other list items if you feel they need more explanation) and I have removed the following:


 * Child of Night (1975) by Anne Edwards
 * Evermore (1978), a novel by Barbara Steward
 * Poe Must Die (1978), a novel by Marc Olden
 * "In the Sunken Museum" (1981),a short story by Gregory Frost, appeared in The Twilight Zone Magazine

This doesn't imply that they aren't notable per se just that there is so little information given here (for both novel and author) that we have no way of assessing them. If you feel they have been unjustly removed then feel free to put them back in with a short sentence on how they fit with the remit of this entry and also provide a reference (to satisy WP:V) and/or start the relevant entry. (Emperor 16:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC))


 * Emperor, you're my hero. Nice work. Hopefully attempted new additions will also get the hint. -Midnightdreary 23:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Good call on Edgar and Ellen I'd completely overlooked what was staring in my face there ;) (Emperor 00:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC))
 * Heh heh... same here. It's only been sitting here for months... --Midnightdreary 01:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I had assumed Edgar was Poe, hence the inclusion. Obviously I overlooked the importance of the update explaining the name. (Emperor 01:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

Images
As there are so many appearance sin visual media it'd be interesting to have a few images of different actors playing him/different interpretations. I did a little digging and found a couple of Combs from the Masters of Horror  and the cover of Batman: Nevermore #1. Anyone got any favourites? If so we could draw up a wishlist and try and get the requested scans/screengrabs. (Emperor 12:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC))

On the lookout
Be on the lookout for a possible nomination to delete this article. Several similar articles are going through the meatgrinder as we speak: Bigfoot in popular culture, Loch Ness Monster and popular culture, Pac-Man in popular culture, and a few others. It's quite rampant: take a look at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Popular culture. Do we think this article is worthwhile? My personal argument has always been better here than there, but that's not a valid argument. I think the only way we can keep this article worthwhile is by having significant context and not just being an indiscriminate collection of information. I know we have talked about this quite a few times... --Midnightdreary 14:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's a suggestion for a new introduction that has a bit more of a critical analysis of this article (though it borders on WP:OR.

'''Edgar Allan Poe's appearances in fiction, film, and television often emphasize different aspects of his presumed personality. Very often, for example, he is used in mystery novels as a detective as an homage to his status as inventor of the detective story. Recent examples include works by Harold Schechter, Matthew Pearl, and Louis Bayard. Many novels often blur the line between Poe's characters and Poe the man. For example, Frank Lovelock creates Poe's famous Lenore as a real person in Poe's life in "Lenore: The Last Narrative of Edgar Allan Poe."'' Just a start, anyway. --Midnightdreary 14:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes a good idea. I've seen a few of these and I think this entry is solid. The reason the others have been deleted is because they are loose collections of trivia. This isn't, as it specifically covers Poe as a character not just allusions to Poe, random mentions of him and his work, etc. - it could even be renamed to lessen the impression it is similar to other articles. It has a solid and clear remit, good focus and it is well policed. Improving the opening helps with this emphasis. It probably needs expanding so it is less listy, if we can find good sources discussing his appearances in fiction. (Emperor 14:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC))

Recent additions
I removed most of the recent additions - the lead is clear about the remit of this article as is the above discussion. Poe on a beer bottle, etc. is not within our purview and shouldn't be put here. (Emperor 21:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC))
 * My assumption is that it was meant as a compromise after removing all that material from the original Poe page. --Midnightdreary 23:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed - although it turned into jamming in things that were removed but were worth keeping. I'm afraid (as discussed above) that it just leads to trivia bloat and is the death of "in popular culture" articles (I'm not sure what the solution is but using this as a catch-all entry isn't it). Obviously feel free to add back in anything you think I've been overly strict on ;) (Emperor 23:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC))


 * It appears I didn't cut deep enough as this edit jammed a variety of material in quite a bit of it apparently not relevant to the entry (like Vincent Price acting in films based on Poe's work). I've removed it and simplified th section title  which I think has done the job. (Emperor (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC))

Zelda
I'm pretty sure that the Poe is actually a reference to a type a malovent spirit in Chinese folk lore, not my speciality something like Gaellic faeries, except the Chinese and the Chinese didn't kiss up to them calling them the goodly folk or any of that. Whatever, I don't need to prove I'm right, cause you got no proof that Edgar Allan has anything to do with Zelda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 07:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point. You'll get no argument from me! --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you provide any links to any books or websites about these Chinese Spirits? I did a bit of looking around, but I couldn't find anything on any Chinese Spirit named "poe". Here is some "proof" that Poe exists in Zelda . To Midnight Dreary: What exactly is a "historical EAP"? There are references to Poe listed in this article from all sorts of fictional works, including Batman. I'm going to revert the article back to my edit. --Parthian Scribe (talk) 05:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the problem with all of these cruft lists; we are all making a huge leap by making any assumptions at all. I am 100% aware that there are characters in Zelda referred to as "Poe" - the question is, are they a reference to Edgar Allan Poe ("the historical Poe") or is it just a name? Not only should it reference Poe, but to be included in this list based on its predetermined criteria, these characters must be meant to represent POE HIMSELF and not just refer to him. If there is contention over something like this, and no cited reliable sources exist to prove it, we are safer not including. The trick here is that we do not need to prove that there is a Chinese spirit named Poe, but that the characters in this video game are meant to be a version of a man named Edgar Allan Poe (the burden of proof, if you will). If you asked me for my opinion, this whole list is crufty and needs sources or deletions. The fact that one of them was questioned was enough to merit its removal, in lieu of anyone finding proof that it merits inclusion. --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As previously discussed, this article has a well-defined remit and something called Poe that may or may not be a reference to Edgar Allan Poe seems to fail the criteria for inclusion on both counts. There are others here that also fail - it seems people are just jamming any old mention of Poe in. I'll remove a few now. (Emperor (talk) 19:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC))

Comics

 * Necronauts was a comic from AD2000, which featured HP Lovecraft, Arthur Conan Doyle, and I *thought* Edgar Allan Poe, though now I actually can't find Poe referenced. So maybe Poe was left out? Pity.
 * Poe & Phillips is a new comic from Arcana Studio that teams of Edgar Allan Poe & H.P. Lovecraft. Poe & Phillips

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