Talk:Eileen Gu

Nationality

It's been confirmed by AP that Jeremy Smith on the China men's national ice hockey team "said he was never asked to renounce his U.S. citizenship" as a naturalized Chinese athlete. This makes me wonder if the nationality controversy is even worth addressing in the main article about Gu or if she should just be listed with both nationalities. It is not addressed on the pages for any of the naturalized ice hockey players from the U.S. For Gu, it really only became an issue because from 2019 on a lot of the media in China heavily pushed the narrative that she had renounced U.S. citizenship, and people started looking into it. YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 05:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that she gained Chinese citizenship and began to compete for China, and maybe a sentence or two on how she views her identity, but not much beyond that is needed. Ganesha811 (talk) 14:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree, with a caveat. There are actually questions if the naturalized athletes even really have Chinese nationality. One report from a family of an athlete that was approached to compete for China said that they are not actually given nationality (as the sports governing bodies require) but are given a passport for use during competition and when registering with sports governing bodies, etc. The passport is then taken back when competition is over. That way the requirements of both China's nationality law and the sports governing bodies are satisfied in a way. Then from the IOC's perspective they have nationality, even if not from China's. YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 17:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I think it's relevant seeing as how she's an olympic athlete who has repeatedly been in the news due to her nationality, and her decision to compete for China. What's more is that there's also a decent amount of controversy on the subject, and speculation since by Chinese law she's not allowed dual citizenship. Furthermore her relevance in many ways is rooted in the fact that she chose to take on Chinese citizenship: as the Economist points out Freestyle Skiing is a relatively obscure sport, and had she not decided to compete for China and all that followed it's most likely she'd never have gained widespread recognition nor the sponsorship deals and all the rest, in essence according to the Economist most of this is due to her decision to compete for China such being the case nationality in many ways is as central to the article as the Freestyle Skiing since they both go hand in hand. She reportedly last year earned $15Million USD in sponsorship deals which makes her the 3rd highest paid female athlete in the world, and RSs say that this is due to her nationality. 2804:14C:8781:8774:A131:310:1E59:3742 (talk) 15:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I read the Economist article too and I'm not sure I agree with your take on it. In any case we have to maintain some balance - she's a notable athlete, not politician, and while her nationality is relevant, it shouldn't be the most important thing on the page. Ganesha811 (talk) 15:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

In her “Born” section, the article notes San Francisco, California, rather than San Francisco, California, U.S.. Standard formatting for most athletes and public personalities includes the country, but for Gu it does not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcreviewer (talk • contribs) 08:05, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Not to beat a dead horse, but are we sure she's a Chinese Citizen? I guess the line of thought was that competing for China thus Chinese but the BBC points out: "The Chinese Consulate General in New York told the BBC that Ms Gu would have to have been naturalised or gained permanent residency status in China to compete for its team. In 2020, the Chinese Ministry of Justice broadened rules for foreigners to obtain permanent residency such that those who has achieved international recognition in sport, science, culture and other fields would be eligible. The expansion would seem to apply to Ms Gu." I'm pay walled out of the WSJ which is the only other source, but unless that explicitly says that she is a citizen of China it seems like this could be WP:OR. Permanent Residency != Citizenship. The only source there seems to be for this is her Red Bull Profile which was heavily edited when it came under scrutiny from the WSJ, which is why the archive of the Red Bull Profile is linked to in the article, not the current profile because the current one says nothing about her having Chinese Citizenship. 2804:14C:8781:8774:E6F6:E9B2:C2F5:76E (talk) 18:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree that that BBC article and the word from the Chinese Consulate General in New York sounds as though she is a U.S. citizen who received Chinese permanent residency and she is not a citizen of China. It's possible that FIS and the IOC made an exception given China's tight law requirements? In terms of what the article should show, maybe nationality should just be removed from the info box with some brief discussion in the article section. YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I think for articles like this it's really important to stick to the sources, and essentially what all the sources are saying is that it's unclear, which should in my opinion what is conveyed in the article. She may be Chinese, she may be American, she may be both; we don't know. There's a tendency to say however that she must be a Chinese citizen because she's competing for China, I think this should however be avoided in light of the BBC article. This is an article of a living person so it has to be very careful of course. Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

"2019年6月6日，15岁的谷爱凌通过个人媒体宣布从美籍正式转为中国国籍" translation "On June 6 2019 at 15 years old, Ailing/Eileen Gu converted/renonuced her us citizenship for chinese citizenship. Mechanical Keyboarder (talk) 23:46, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

The "个人媒体" is referring to her Weibo and Instagram posts which only talk about changing the nation she is representing with the ski federation from the U.S. to China. That change is already mentioned in the article and the header also mentions that she competes for China. It does not say anything about naturalization or renouncing citizenship. I think all that can be said for certain is that she is American-born and that she represents and competes for China. YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 00:29, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

If you read further it says "成为中国首位以华裔身份入籍的滑雪运动员" which translates to she naturalized from U.S. to China which also implies she renounced her U.S. citizenship as the PRC does not allow dual citizenship. Mechanical Keyboarder (talk) 01:08, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a biography of a living person so implies seems like it doesn't meet the standard, furthermore not one of the typical reliable sources that would be used on an article like this is claiming a nationality for her. I am sure that the NYT is aware of XYZ but it's critical to remember not one are risking their journalistic integrity on it, so if they aren't willing to risk their integrity on it then why should wikipedia? By contrast there are multiple articles which state that Zhu Yi (figure skater) renounced her citizenship, which is why her article plainly and clearly states that she renounced her US Citizenship. By contrast:

*BBC: "Speculation about her citizenship status has been rife since Red Bull, a corporate sponsor, claimed she gave up her US passport in order to compete for China, but later removed the line when pressed by a US newspaper. China does not recognise dual citizenship, and Ms Gu has always declined to disclose the status of her nationality... The Chinese Consulate General in New York told the BBC that Ms Gu would have to have been naturalised or gained permanent residency status in China to compete for its team."

*NYT: "Gu declined to comment when asked about her citizenship status. China does not allow dual citizenship, but there is no official record that she has given up her American citizenship."

*Economist: "When she turned 18 in September, under Chinese law Gu was required to renounce her American citizenship. One of Gu’s big sponsors, Red Bull, noted on its website: “Gu decided to give up her American passport and naturalise as a Chinese citizen in order to compete for China.” Yet when a Wall Street Journal reporter called Red Bull to confirm, the passage was removed.Did Gu really relinquish her passport? Her name has never appeared on the US Treasury Department’s list of expatriated individuals. In January 2021, she became a candidate for a US Presidential Scholars Programme that is open only to US citizens or permanent residents. Gu still spends far more time in America than in China, and will return to attend Stanford in the autumn. Yet she has never commented on her citizenship status."

*CNN:"Though she switched to compete for China, it's unclear whether she renounced her American citizenship -- usually a requirement for Chinese naturalization, since the country does not allow dual citizenship. Gu has never publicly commented on the status of her American citizenship, though an article on the official Olympic site referred to her "dual nationality" in January. At a news conference after her win on Tuesday, reporters asked Gu several times if she was still a US citizen. She dodged answering each time, saying only that she felt American in the US and Chinese in China."

*AP:"Although Gu’s decision to compete for China has gotten outsized attention, what she and Zhu are doing is fairly common in the international sporting arena. Zhu gave up her U.S. citizenship in order to compete for China in Beijing. It’s unclear whether Gu has done the same; she has never commented publicly on the question of her citizenship."

*SCMP: "Gu is yet to clarify her nationality status publicly since making the decision to represent China at the Beijing Games."

*GlobalTimes: Rather than quote this I'd recommend reading the article in its entirety. It strongly implies that Gu is naturalized, but never states that she is, then seemingly draws a distinction between naturalization, and citizenship, bridging Gu to the phrase with 'apart from' which can mean either including or not including according to Oxford Dictionaries: "Apart from Gu, some Chinese athletes born in foreign countries also decided to obtain Chinese citizenship to compete for their motherland in this Winter Olympics for various reasons. This includes the above-mentioned US-born figure skater Zhu Yi (Beverly Zhu) and Canadian-born ice hockey player Ye Jinguang (Brandon Yip)." Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:19, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Why is there still confusion about nationality?

According to her Olympic profile, "she renounced her United States citizenship for Chinese citizenship".[1] When you renounce your citizenship it means you have lost your citizenship, you are no longer a citizen of the country you chose to renounce which means you don't get to havw a passport. [2] This wikipedia article make it seems as if some stuff aren't clear and that there are evidence to the contrary (what?). It says "China does not recognize multiple citizenship after the age of 18. It is unclear whether she has relinquished her American passport as required by Chinese law as there is some evidence to the contrary". Recent articles make it clear that she has renounced her American citizenship.--41.42.104.33 (talk) 20:34, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

According to other sources such as the Economist it's unclear what her citizenship is. They cite her recently applying for Scholarships only available to US Citizens, as well as the "Quarterly Publication of Individuals, Who Have Chosen to Expatriate", a list published by the US Federal government of all US citizens who have renounced their citizenship, her name has never been listed. If you're interested in the article it's posted under Nationality section. 191.177.204.73 (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention that when she announced she would be competing for China, at age 15, she could not renounce her US citizenship. She was underage. Her people have been very smart in not acknowledging the situation, as to not create ripples in either country. Most likely she’s competing with a Chinese passport. It’s a big win for China to not push the subject. ~ Cdman882 (talk) 03:58, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

That Olympic profile is the Beijing 2022 website, even though it's under olympics.com. I'd be skeptical of the information there as with considering any other state-controlled media in China a reliable source on certain issues. China can give and remove her Chinese citizenship and it can choose not to recognize her other citizenship; it can't remove her U.S. citizenship. There's a procedure to loss of nationality on the U.S. side that there's no evidence of her having completed. A symbolic renunciation before Chinese authorities would only be "real" if she was never going to return to the U.S., but she still lives in the U.S. and by law has to use a U.S. passport to go in/out until she completed the formal procedure. Also, since 1990, the U.S. State Department has assumed that, unless otherwise notified, Americans naturalizing in other countries are doing it without "the intention of giving up U.S. citizenship." YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 04:51, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Neither China nor US recognize dual or multiple nationalities. Although Ailing was father by an american, whatever that might mean (eg Jewish, Irish, Hispanic, sperm donation, etc), it does not appear that he was around at the time of her birth, and she was given her mother's last name. And there's nothing to indicate that he has ever been around in her life. It would appear that she was born and brought up in a single-parent family and has no other siblings. Therefore she is culturally more Chinese than anything else. It's up to her to decide who to represent. 2A00:23C5:C13C:9F00:E4AC:B98B:40D2:7C7E (talk) 17:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I mean, if you want to get technical by bringing up the diverse ethnic backgrounds of the U.S., you might as well mention the ethnic diversity of China. Aside from the majority Han Chinese, they recognize 55 other ethnic groups,[3] so there's a possibility (though unlikely in Gu's case) that her mother may not be fully Han Chinese ethnically, if that's what many are assuming. Whatever her exact ethnic background is, it is not relevant to her nationality. All we know is that her father is American and her mother was born in China, immigrating to the United States in her 20s.[4] It's possible that she was raised in a single-parent household, but none of this is mentioned with reliable sources provided in her article. For whatever reason, she chose to represent China in her professional career. But given China's nationality rules, her actual citizenship status remains unclear. Sources state that she has purposely chosen to not clarify her citizenship. There is already a sentence and source provided on how she identifies nationally/culturally, stating that she feels "American" when she's in the U.S., and "Chinese" when she is in China. The lede sentence only states that she has chosen to compete for China since 2019, which I think since fine given the uncertainty of her nationality. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 23:14, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Her olympic profile got scrubbed yesterday and now no longer says anything about her nationality.Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:27, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

As a hobby, Gu has been reported to play the piano.

The source says she plays it. Can this be changed to As a hobby, Gu plays the piano.? 2001:8003:DDAA:5A00:A127:4004:F21E:908E (talk) 02:00, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Done. YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 05:10, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Neutral POV

Isn't adding the "silence" of Gu on Xinjiang and HK a breach of neutral tone? We should only be adding to personal life and political opinion based of what she has said...not what she hasn't. I think this section should be scratched, until she has made a comment on either crisis. Garlicbreadtea (talk) 06:46, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Technically speaking according to the BBC article she did make a statement on these which was that there was no need to be divisive. Also I'm not sure if it'd be too much WP:SYNTH but you could also add in a quote from her Agent: "In declining to speak to The Economist, her American agent, Tom Yaps, told the magazine: "If [Eileen] participates in an article that has two paragraphs critical of China and human rights, that would put her in jeopardy over there. One thing and a career is ruined."" The BBC article does a nice job of bridging these two ideas together.Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I see. I suppose that makes sense, thank you for the response. Garlicbreadtea (talk) 22:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

How about something along the lines of... "because of her decision to ski for China and strong support of activist causes in the US, Gu has been repeatedly asked about China's alleged human rights abuses in Xinjiang, in regards to these questions however she has avoided giving direct answers responding simply that she "[does] not wish to be divisive". Her agent elaborated focusing on the damage answering these questions could potentially do to her career in China stating: "If [Eileen] participates in an article that has two paragraphs critical of China and human rights, that would put her in jeopardy over there. One thing and a career is ruined."" The Economist article also has quite a bit on this subject. Alcibiades979 (talk) 20:04, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@DanGong: What would you think about something like the above? I think the trick to it is to really heavily use the sources so that it's rock solid. I know the BBC article and Economist article have some really good material. Alcibiades979 (talk) 20:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that a lot of the pieces are there, but it's left as speculation/insinuation instead of straight out saying it. From the Economist: "Gu and her mother declined requests for an interview for this story. Through Gu’s American agent, Tom Yaps, Gu Yan said the family would not take part unless they could review the entire article before publication – to guarantee that no criticism of China appeared in the text. “I understand how unconventional a request that is,” Yaps said, but political sensitivities were making them “very cautious”. Gu Yan, he told me, feared that “if [Eileen] participates in an article that has two paragraphs critical of China and human rights, that would put her in jeopardy over there. One thing and a career is ruined."...Her influence extends far beyond the slopes. A fearless skier who moonlights as a fashion model, a top student who preaches female empowerment in both English and Mandarin, Gu has emerged as one of the world’s hottest marketing phenomena. Over the past year, she has appeared on the cover of Chinese editions of Vogue and GQ, Elle and Marie Claire, and signed lucrative contracts with dozens of companies, including Adidas, Tiffany and Louis Vuitton. Gu’s commercial success owes a lot to her talent, beauty and daring. Many brands also hope to exploit her newfound popularity to reach a market of 1.4bn people. Gu’s mother may have been envisaging just such a windfall: weeks before her daughter’s change in allegiance she set up a new company in America, DreamComeGu...Nobody has pursued and promoted the young star more avidly than the Chinese government. Tasked with building an Olympic team worthy of a superpower, Chinese sports officials identified Gu as a possible centrepiece for a “naturalisation project” designed to recruit top athletes of Chinese heritage based overseas. China has no well-known winter athletes. So when the world champion freestyle skier Gu chose China over America, she became the darling of an increasingly nationalistic population, a symbol of the country’s growing strength and the perceived decline of its arch-rival... Again and again, the Chinese government forces countries, companies and individuals to make a choice: you’re either with us or against us. To preserve their access to the country, institutions from Apple and Hollywood to the International Olympic Committee (IOC) remain silent on all matters sensitive to the Communist Party... The pressure to stay quiet has only intensified ahead of the Beijing Olympics. Corporate sponsors banking on their business in China have gone out of their way to avoid answering questions about human rights. In January, the Chinese government even warned participating foreign athletes that “any behaviour or speech” that goes against Chinese laws and regulations would be “subject to certain punishment”. Chinese citizens can face far worse consequences for crossing the invisible lines... Gu seems acutely aware of the potential dangers. In America, she has made impassioned pleas about Black Lives Matter and anti-Asian violence, but she has avoided making any comments about social and political issues in China. That discrepancy is a reminder that the official narrative of Eileen Gu is not the whole story." Alcibiades979 (talk) 20:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

From a Neutral POV standpoint I'm not sure if I understand the "Activism" section. When I search "Eileen Gu" and "Activist" it seems like the vast majority of reliable sources I get back are about her getting criticized by activists: ie Bloomberg: "Activists criticize [Gu's] silence on China's abuses." In fact actually calling her an "activist" I get watchpro, and abc7. Then content wise what follows isn't exactly activism: posting on social media in support of BLM doesn't sound like activism, going to a rally or sit in does. By this definition I am also an activist. Maybe we could rename the entire section, such as to "Politics" perhaps. Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:49, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2022

change "Peking University Women's Speed Skiing team" to "Peking University Women's Speed Skating Team"

Here is the source:

https://www.lapeople.com/news/52988.html

There is also no such thing as "Speed Skiing". Seeping81 (talk) 06:22, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Done. Alcibiades979 (talk) 12:54, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Actually, there IS such a thing as Speed_skiing. But, it's not what this person was involved in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertjm (talk • contribs) 08:50, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Yan Gu / Gu Ailing write up is very confusing.

You all should clear up the section about her mom and her. Was Gu Ailing raised in China? How is she Chinese if she was born and raised in the US? Why so much about her mom? It's mess. 65.110.214.98 (talk) 05:58, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

On the contrary, the article seems very clear and specific as to in what sense "How is she Chinese". If you have suggested edits or specific concern, by all means let us know, but the above seems like a vague complaint from personal opinion. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 11:14, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Chinese name

I have some doubts as to the necessity and accuracy of the translation of 爱凌 (currently 'Love-Ice'), serendipitous though it is. I cannot find any precedent for making literal translations of Chinese names, which tend not to be literal in meaning. I can't find a credible source for this, but I believe Eileen was named after her late aunt, who was named 凌, and therefore "Ailing" means "love 凌", which renders the 'love-ice' translation moot. If someone more knowledgeable in Chinese can provide some clarification, it would be much appreciated. brendanhylin (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree. It doesn't seem like it is included for names in other articles and seems like original research too (WP:NOR). -- YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 00:59, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

On another note, shouldn't the full name (Eileen Feng Gu) be included in the lede? brendanhylin (talk) 01:19, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Done. It looks like it was there before but was changed. I've restored it. -- YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 21:08, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Necessity of family name hatnote

I'm not very clear about the proper usage of this hatnote, but it seems to me that since the article uses her English name, the hatnote is redundant, no? It should be pretty clear that Gu is the family name in this instance. brendanhylin (talk) 20:15, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Note: this has since been resolved. Thank you Intforce. brendanhylin (talk) 23:05, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Race/ethnicity and nationality/citizenship of parents

Sources largely say "Chinese mother and American father," contrasting the nationality/citizenship of her parents (not their race/ethnicity). That and the fact that she had to naturalize with China in 2019 would suggest that her mother was a Chinese citizen and U.S. permanent resident when she was born. There's also some evidence her mother was still a Chinese citizen and U.S. permanent resident in 2019, as her mother's Chinese citizenship is the only criteria that would seem to satisfy FIS' requirements for switching nationality on acquiring new citizenship (apart from being born in China or residing there for two years). No reliable sources appear to comment on the race/ethnicity of her father and the article should avoid speculation there. -- YgFZAcpJUJ (talk) 19:28, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Nationality 2.0

As seen above, last year, there was discussion about Gu's citizenship because there was uncertainty on her nationality situation due to China's laws regarding the recognition or revoking of Chinese nationality in regards to being a dual national. As it stands, it seems like her exact nationality situation is largely ambiguous or not fully confirmed. Perhaps purposefully so.

Last year's discussion seemed to be rather contentious, and for the longest time, the page described her as simply "American-born"[5] seemingly without any opposition. This was changed on 12 February 2023 by an IP user without providing any discussion here[6]

If the subject has a complex/uncertain citizenship situation, it is often omitted per WP:ETHNICITY. in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted Sports examples include former basketball player Joakim Noah, soccer player (or footballer) Andre Gray and many other soccer players with national careers that differ from their birth country. For non-sports people, there are also examples like Tina Turner. So, I've removed mention of a specific nationality in the lede, but the subsequent sentences provide context on her birth and the country she represents in sports until further discussion. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 04:30, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

There is literally no point in arguing she is not American. Anyone who is non-American studying in the U.S. needs the F visa. You can do all you want in the lede, but the rest of the article and specifically that whole Nationality and citizenship section has provided enough context. Tina Turner formally gave up her US citizenship and she can be looked up on the Treasury Dept website. Supermann (talk) 05:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Multiple issues

This article is about an athlete (and a model), not a dissident. The "Nationality and citizenship" section is longer than any other section of the article. It details Chinese law and covers reports by Chinese state media. We report facts, not speculation, via reliable sources. Eileen Gu is not on trial on Wikipedia.

Much of the content about Gu's mother reinforces the Chinese tiger parent stereotype (particularly the quote related to her training: "Yan is very pleasant but one of the most intense human beings I have ever met. She smiles and tells you how great you are. But then you find out, after the fact, what the requests are. She loves her daughter and wants her daughter to get priority...") In addition, the entire section about the academy is from the New York Post, which is a deprecated source. The mention of Woodward Tahoe is essentially an ad: a "33,000 square foot Indoor Action Sports Hub training next-generation athletes". (It is sourced to a Facebook page.)

Other sources include a Forbes story written by a contributor, The Willstonian, a high school newspaper, Business Insider, Facebook posts from primary sources, and a publication called JTM, which refers to Gu using male pronouns. Not a great indication of fact-checking.

In an attempt to avoid a wall of text, I will leave specifics in the edit summaries. But, in short: WP:COATRACK, WP:SYNTHESIS, BALANCE, WP:RELIABLE and WP: We can do better. JSFarman (talk) 02:45, 21 February 2024 (UTC)