Talk:Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven

Incoherence
"She related the ways that political structures promote masculine authority figures in family settings, functioning as a means of maintaining the state's patriarchal societal order of which even the patriarch is submissive to her father's behavior. Her discontent with her father's hegemonic masculine control may have fostered her anti-patriarchal activist approach to life."

This makes no sense logically or grammatically. I'd like to correct it, but I don't know where to begin. Her father IS literally the patriarch. How can he submit to his own behavior? Where exactly in her life (in her writings? then say so) did she "relate the ways that political structures promote masculine authority figures in family settings"? Did she do that in her writings? Which ones? Please specify. What antecedent does the word "functioning" modify? Not clear! What does "of which even the patriarch is submissive to her father's behavior" even mean in English? There's no way that "the patriarch is submissive to her father's behavior" can grammatically be "of" anything. It's pure nonsense.

I'm going to prune away the parts that make absolutely no sense & try to leave the rest as best as I can.

Zenomax (talk) 07:21, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Abuse
"Her father, a mason, sexually and physically abused her in her childhood, which possibly contributed to her later lifelong promiscuous behavior, prostitution, venereal disease, and numerous affairs with both men and women throughout her lifetime, including the writer Djuna Barnes."

I think this is kind of original research (the idea that her abuse led to prostitution and bisexaulity), having looked at the source. Andral (talk) 03:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

And slander?--Radh (talk) 14:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really. It's pretty well known that childhood sexual abuse usually leads to, or rather, victims often exhibit promiscuity and an inability to form meaningful long-lasting relationships. However, I agree that the statement needs a reference. Boneyard90 (talk) 12:34, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The supposed abuse had no citation after 5 years so I have removed it. Nedrutland (talk) 08:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Divorces
Just curious when she divorced any of her husbands? She seemed to get married, but she never got divorced :) It'd be great to have citations and information about her relationships regarding this! SarahStierch (talk) 15:18, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * First divorce now referenced. No evidence of a divorce from Greve though.Nedrutland (talk) 08:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Translation of French
In the section Collage, Performance and Assemblage the translation of the French doesn't seem quite right to me.

"Une de mes amies sous un pseudonyme masculin, Richard Mutt, avait envoyé une pissotière en porcelaine comme sculpture" ("One of my female friends, who had adopted the pseudonym, Richard Mutt, sent me a porcelain urinal as a sculpture.")

I don't think that the original says it was sent *to him* does it?

Meaigs (talk) 14:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed; now altered. Nedrutland (talk) 08:27, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

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Fountain
The article now implies that there is no doubt Duchamp made the Fountain (Francis explains...). I am absolutely not an expert in this field, but I do wonder if this one expert is more of an expert than those who claim Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven is more likely to be the true artist of this piece (these experts being Irene Gammel, Glynn Thomson, Julian Spalding and John Higgs). After reading https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/06/14/de-leugen-van-marcel-duchamp-a1606507 (sorry, Dutch) and https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/features/was-marcel-duchamps-fountain-actually-created-by-a-long-forgotten-pioneering-feminist-10491953.html, I'm not at all convinced we can be certain either of them made the piece. Femkemilene (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect photo
In 2008 a photo of actress Maria Germanova in costume for Maeterlinck's The Blue Bird was posted on a blog. Some time later someone cropped the photo and claimed it was a photo of the Baroness. I have seen it called an image of her on Tumblr. At some point it was added to this Wikipedia article. Unfortunately this error has now been perpetuated in an article in The Guardian, using a similar crop to the one in the Wikipedia article. --Larrybob (talk) 04:40, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It actually appears that the photo was added to this article after its publication in The Guardian rather than vice versa as I originally thought.--Larrybob (talk) 04:53, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

This is not the baroness 83.39.27.2 (talk) 20:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * VRT agent: We've received 2021073110002646 regarding this issue. Regards. --Ganímedes (talk) 11:10, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Wording of Duchamp's letter of April 11, 1917
Since this is the second reference I have come across concerning the wording of Duchamp's letter (the first being in the article about the "Fountain"), I find it necessary to point out that "avait envoyé une pissotière" should be translated as "submitted a urinal" (or "sent in"). One of the older meanings of the term "envoi" being a submission to an art exhibition or competition, something Duchamp would have known. This rules out speculation on a distinction between "sent" and "made" that would miss the point of the piece. To further speculate that "Rrose Sélavy" might be one of the candidates for authorship seems bizarre, since it means that Duchamp would have hidden behind two pseudonyms ("Richard Mutt" being the other one). Why would he would have played such games with his own sister? Jan van der Zone (talk) 12:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC)