Talk:Ephesus/Archive 1

Mary's house
"said by the Roman Catholic Church" suggests that it is a teaching of the Church. It is not. The belief that the house was the home of Mary is merely a popular belief of individual Christians. The Catholic Church's designation of it as "worthy of belief" is merely a statement that it may be true or may not but is ok to believe if you want to. Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpellman (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Meyers Konversationslexikon map
I brought the historical Meyers Konversationslexikon map over from the German Wikipedia version of the page; I see no good reason why it shouldn't be here too, as it's both useful and classy. Perhaps it should go somewhere further down the page, however.

Krinsky 17:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Weasel Words
"The house of the Virgin Mary (Turkish: Meryemana, meaning "Mother Mary"), about 7 km from Selçuk, is believed by many to have been the last home of Mary, mother of Jesus and is a popular place of pilgrimage."

"is believed by many" is an example of weasel words (Avoid weasel words). Perhaps make this more specific ("according to popular lore")? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brilliand (talk • contribs) 22:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Article needs map
This article needs a map clearly showing exactly where in Anatolia this place is. Badagnani 06:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. Badagnani 06:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Some Missing info:
It would be nice to see something about the sewer system at Ephesus. Anybody that has visited there, expecially the ones from cruises, would have taken the tour of the city. In the tour, the guide talks about the sewage system, the lavatories available (to the elite), and a few other interesting facts about the ancient city. The sewer system, for instance, would still work if necessary, and is over 2000 years old Kingerik 15:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I have photo's of an exposed sewer line, the baths, and the lavatory (with a person sitting in the photo). I can't figure out this site, however, if someone has the interest to post these photo's I will email them to you. Email me at steevum AT gmail dot com.68.148.104.154 05:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Images from Ephesus
My Internet side http://olafzesewitz.de/gallery/tuerkei/ephesus/ can supply meaningful supplementing pictorial material to the article. The pictorial material published there by me is not subject to restrictions of use in this format. The decision over screen selection, Upload and/or mounting an externally link on my web page I would like to leave to the authors of the article. --ozes~enwiki (talk) 15:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Quotes from the "Scholar", Curtis Hudwalker
The only reference I could find online to Curtis Hudwalker without the word "notes" in it was this one, a personal one: http://www.globalguide.org/index.html?title=Curtis_Hudwalker&PHPSESSID=ab5f507f1f7f81cdfc7cc925a998dcea

! I think we have been had! For quite a while, too. This quote is in many Wikipedia and derivative articles. BTW scholars should generally not be quoted inline. It makes them more important than the subject. e.g. "Student7 says this arch is the greatest in Ancient Greece." (Wow. If Student7 says it, it must be true! I wish! :) Student7 12:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Brothel sign
The article states that there is a tunnel leading from near the Library of Celsus to a brothel and its entrance is marked by various symbols. Having visited Ephesus several times and led tours around the site, I suspect this is a garbled reference to the symbols incised on the pavement of "Marble Way", about half-way between the Library and the Theatre. Thus it is not exactly "near"! To the best of my knowledge there is no tunnel anywhere near this bit of graffiti. The symbols consist of a woman's head and shoulders - there is a panel beneath this bust, but whether it contains a price or not I cannot say; a left-foot (notable for the length of the middle toe, long middle toes were characteristic of the Romans); and a heart-shape which is filled with small pits or dots. On some Roman statues such a pattern of pits or dots was intended to represent facial hair, so it is my opinion that this heart-shape is intended to represent pubic hair, a fitting symbol for a brothel. Kendall K. Down (www.diggingsonline.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.231.220 (talk) 22:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right. I've removed this wrong information. Having visited Ephesus twice, I've seen those symbols and there is certainly no tunnel leading to it. JoJan (talk) 16:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Name
The Articles Name is -us (like in Latin) although it is Greek (-os). So why isn't it "Ephesos"? Greets,Saippuakauppias ⇄ 23:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I imagine that the reason the name is -us is because that is the generally accepted spelling in English.Bwilhiteforex (talk) 19:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

HittiteNameLeadingToTheAncientGreekName
We need to add the info that the Greek name was derived from the earlier Hittite name of the city when it was founded.

...

Here, in the Ayasuluk Hill, starting from the Prehistoric period, indigenous people of Anatolia and the Hittites settled down. Later, the city was probably Apasas. About 1050 BC the Hill was captured by Androclus and his men and was started to be called Ephesus by time (fig. 8). ... 1)

2) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lycianhittite (talk • contribs) 10:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:ERA
May we sort the dates out again? We have consistent "BCE", which is fine, and consistent "AD", which is fine, but they should be in the same style, unless we are accepting this as a sort of peaceful, local compromise. If to change, which to use, please? --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, User:Nihil novi, for the fix. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out the problem. "BCE" and "CE" seem especially appropriate to a soil, more of whose overall history has been pagan or Moslem than Christian.  Nihil novi (talk) 05:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Amphitheatre capacity
I deleted "55,000" on a quibbling error in the reference and replace the original, valid reference. However the work I removed—Public and Performance in the Greek Theatre ISBN 0415062993—does indeed give the figure. The overwhelming consensus among authors is for the deleted figure of 25,000 and there is absolutely no justification for removing this. However, references are references so if anybody wants to add, rather than substitute, "55,000" as a blue-skies guess from a drama professor (as opposed to the consensus among historians) they're welcome.--Old Moonraker (talk) 07:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Dates, accuracy and development
There are a lot of points here that are just not correct. I will come back when I have the time, but perhaps others can begin to tackle this.

Some examples from the Roman and Byzantine sections that are particularly weak: The Baths were not built by Constantine I, but Constantine II and were over the older Harbour baths in the west of the town. They were also not simply Baths, but Gymnasium-baths. The Goths raided the town in 262 not 263. John Chrysostom raised the temple of Artemis in 401 not 406.

These are factual points, but there is a great deal more that really should be added here.

These sections need re-writing very badly and I am only sorry that I cam trying to fob the job off on someone else! —Preceding unsigned comment added by D51386 (talk • contribs) 21:49, 12 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Speaking of inaccurate dates, the wikipedia article on the Edict of Thessalonika states that it (the edict) was issued in 381. Notwithstanding the reference given in the present article (note 2, Freeley) it's hard to see the Edict as the cause for the destruction, twenty years later, of the Temple of Artemis in 401 (or 406). Further, the article on the Temple of Artemis states it was severly damaged by the Goths in the 3rd cent. and may not have been subsequently rebuilt at all. The dating desctuction of the temple should either be better sourced or should allow for alternative hypotheses.43hellokitty21 (talk) 16:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Let me add, gently, that if the unsigned author of the above proposal that Chrysostom raised the temple of Artemis means he destroyed it, the spelling is 'razed.' And again, the article on the temple does not mention this at all. Freeley, according to his own bio on Amazon.com is a physicist and writer of popular travel and history books. I would suggest skepticism regarding his assertions which are not otherwise corroberated by professional historians. 43hellokitty21 (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Belongs To...
Does this site belong to the Greeks, Turks, or Christians? Area/land is a part of Turkey. Heritage is a part of all world. Article is belong to all editors/readers. Is it helpful? Regards Mustafa Akalp TC 17:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What dou you want to ask? Area/land or ruins/theatre/stadium-historical heritage? Or basicly Ephesus article of wiki?

All of the above... and more! This site has been continously occupied since before the bronze age and the Hittites! Alan.A.Mick (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:24, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Dark Ages ?
The section describing the period after the Bronze Age and Hittites and preceding the Archaic Period (which includes the Persians) is captioned "Dark Ages". In my experience, the "Dark Ages" refers to the European Middle Ages after the fall of Rome and the rise of Christianity, which would roughly coincide with the Byzantine Empire and into the Ottoman Turkish period. Hence this caption is confusing.

I am changing it to "The Period of Greek Migrations" based on the following chronological nomenclature for Turkey, based on notes provided to me by Dr. Ender Tan of Istanbul.


 * Neolithic Period / New Stone Age - 7500 to about 2600 BCE
 * Bronze Age and the Hittites - about 2600 to 1300 BCE
 * The Greek Migrations - about 1250 to 600 BCE
 * The Archaic Period and the Persians- about 700 to 479 BCE
 * The Classical Period and Alexander the Great - about 479 to 323 BCE
 * The Hellenistic Period - 323 to 130 BCE
 * The Roman Period
 * The Advent of Christianity - birth of Christ to 324 CE
 * The Byzantine Empire - 324 to 1453 CE
 * The Advent of Islam and the Seljuk Turks - about 625 to 1242 CE
 * The Ottoman Turkish Period - expanding during 1242 to 1453 CE, existing through to WWI and the Turkish Republic

Alan.A.Mick (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Camel fights in the ancient theatre
I think it's a disgrace that camel fights are still taking place in an ancient theater. It just shows how much some people respect ancient munuments and the culture they stand for. Some centuries age, it used to be tragedies and comedies, now it's camel saliva foams dribbling on the antique marbles...

Camel fights in the theatre stopped years ago. They take place in a arena away from the ancient city Denizkupon (talk) 01:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)denizkupon

Ephesus?
Why does Ephesos redirect to Ephesus? It should be Ephesus redirecting to Ephesos, right? It's Greek city in a region where Greek was spoken well into Islamic times. So why the latinized name? &#9798; CUSH &#9798; 07:54, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Same reason we have Athens and Rome instead of Athina and Roma; it's the name most commonly used in English. Stan (talk) 18:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

More info would be useful for infobox
I'm the guy who just migrated this article to the improved ancient site infobox. However, there are still a few things which are missing: the size of the area occupied by Ephesus (for which I can't find a source quickly), which organization manages the site and more importantly the official website of the archaeological park. I simply can't find it quickly with Google, but it would surprise me if there is no official website. --AlexanderVanLoon (talk) 10:06, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * This has been fixed by now. --AlexanderVanLoon (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Objections against converting to shortened footnotes?
With the large amount of references I think this article would benefit from using shortened footnotes with Template:Sfn. That template can be seen in action in Alexander the Great, among many others. I'm willing to do the work, but I know this should be discussed first. If no one responds, I will start the change in seven days. --AlexanderVanLoon (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Coordinate error
The following coordinate fixes are needed for Ephesus. The coordinates should be 37° 56′ 42″ N, 27° 20′ 21″ E. The one currently listed is for Izmir, not Ephesus.

—72.220.102.148 (talk) 02:33, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. The coordinates currently in the article (37.94111°N, 27.34194°W) differ only minimally from those you have given above and certainly correspond to the location of ancient Ephesus, not modern Izmir. Could you clarify where, exactly, you are seeing the error? Deor (talk) 12:25, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Missing original name "Apasa" which later names derive from
Why isn't it stated in the beginning that the Turkish and Greek names derive from the original Hittite name of this settlement (Apasa), that became Greek after the invasion of Attic and Ioanian settlers? The etymology section concerning this is missing, too.

If there is no objection I will add the Hittite name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akocsg (talk • contribs) 00:54, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Jewish Community in Ephesus?
I noticed that there's no reference to the Jewish community there. But there's archaeological and historical evidence of a significant Jewish community and influence there. For example: the Menorah engraved on the steps of the Celcus Library. Does someone think that this is worth noting? WorldTravelerPhil (talk) 17:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, do you have a source? I don't think we should make a separate section to mention it though, it should probably be discussed in the appropriate chronological history section. Assuming the Jews arrived in the Roman period, they could be mentioned in that section? --AlexanderVanLoon (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I've touched on the existence of a Jewish Christian community in Ephesus reference to Paul's mission. - BobKilcoyne (talk) 05:27, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

"Show Me The Proof!" - No Confidence
Show us one shred of proof in writing and connection to this site that shows this was a library, the date, and earthquake is what destroyed it! Its easy to make shit up. Also, I do not want the typical misdirection, I want direct proof! Idiots. Preceding unsigned comment added by Toppsykrets (talk) 11:32, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 one external links on Ephesus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5hFIaQq0J?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tcmb.gov.tr%2Fyeni%2Feng%2F to http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/eng/
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5hFIaQq0J?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tcmb.gov.tr%2Fyeni%2Feng%2F to http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/eng/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090422212451/http://www.tcmb.gov.tr:80/yeni/mevzuat/EMISYON/KARARTEBLIGVEGENELGELER/duyuruytl-ing.htm to http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/mevzuat/EMISYON/KARARTEBLIGVEGENELGELER/duyuruytl-ing.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:41, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Ottomans...
When there is no solid proof that Ottomans did a massacre, how could you add a section saying that it happened for sure? "Khirurg" uses a book that his author believed that there was a massacre. I mean it is author's personal belief, even his hope. there is no solid historical proof that a massacre happened. you can not find such a comment in a recognized, prestigious history source. If you are not a hater. please stop adding that part. This is outrageous. Youyouyou1524 (talk) 15:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)


 * You are removing a source from Cambridge University Press which clearly mentions the Ottoman massacre. This is vandalism. Please see WP:VAND for more information. Here, on Wikipedia, we abide by reliable sources. You should also learn not to attack other editors or try to shame them. See our policy on No personal attacks. Dr.   K.  16:41, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

This is not a vandalism. You are accusing me and attacking me. Cambridge university press releases many, many books. This one's author believes that it happened. It does not change the fact that it is author's idea.This is not a historical fact. Finding the one that back up your idea and putting here like it is a historical fact, this is just wrong. You can not find this accusation in any other prestigious history book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.142.8.241 (talk) 17:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I am not doing anything to you. I am just telling you what you have done and what policies you are violating. This is advice, not an attack. The reliable source by CUP quotes another source when it mentions the massacre. This event is clearly well sourced. You have no right to remove it. You should also log in to your main account. Otherwise you are violating WP:SOCKPUPPETRY. Dr.   K.  17:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Dr. K., CUP mentions the other source as it uses to get the dates the ottomans coming to ephesus. Also, It does not change the fact that the number of the sources is still one. That means one view. You are using just one view to say that a massacre happened. You can not find such an accusation in another history book. One author- one view. and you insist on keeping that part and threatening me to block me. Please answer the question. Is it right to use one point of view to make such an accusation? Youyouyou1524 (talk) 18:01, 16 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Clive Foss is a professor of history and his book, published by CUP, is a reliable source, so, again, this source and the cited fact of this source will not be removed from this article. As long as the source is reliable, its fact cannot be removed from the article. As far as other sources, they are not needed. One reliable source is enough. If you have any further questions, you can go and ask at the reliable sources noticeboard. It is obvious to me that my words alone are not going to change your POV. Dr.   K.  18:31, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. "one source is enough". So, one point of view, an author's idea is enough for you to make such a huge statement. It is also obvious that you would like to keep it no matter what. Good luck protecting the views you would like to show in wikipedia against all historical facts and other sources.Youyouyou1524 (talk) 18:47, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Missing map marker
There is no marker for the ancient city on the map with the caption, "shown within Turkey". Can someone good with this stuff note this for a future fix? Dr.khatmando (talk) 05:32, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Ephesus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081122023516/http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/banknote/E7/20m.htm to http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/banknote/E7/20m.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090224222417/http://tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/banknote/E8/18.htm to http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/banknote/E8/18.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:55, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Ancient city of Ephesus flooded
Ussher writes the following for 292BC: "The city of Ephesus was located on low ground, and some time later was completely flooded by the sea.  In Stephanus Byzantinus we may read an epigram made by Duris, concerning this flood.  Lysimachus moved the city to another place and rebuilt it, calling it after his new wife Arsinoe, but after his death the city quickly assumed its old name of Ephesus (Strabo, l.14,c1,s21 6:221) (Stephanus, de Urbibus, on Ephesus).  To populate his new city, he Lysimachus destroyed the two cities of Lebedos and Colophon and relocated their inhabitants to the new city.  Phoenix, in his poetry, grievously deplored this action involving the destruction of these two famous cities. (Phoenix, Iambics) (Pausanias, Attica, l1,c9,s7, 1:47).

So the Greek and Roman Ephesus are not quite the same place - but similar enough to be recognised.

Sittingduck123 19:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * BC and BCE are the exact same thing. Just because the source used BC does not mean that we have to use it too. Khoikhoi 00:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As it is all the same, I have reverted to my terms. You may use BCE in your own original research. Sittingduck123 10:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC) (See also Manual of Style (dates and numbers))

Interesting,and should be added to article. It sounds like it was moved from the floodplain to the overlooking hills further in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.179.151 (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Greek name in lead
The Greek alternative name in lede obviously includes the era where Koine Greek and medieval Greek was spoken. Any objections?Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Refactor #Ephesus and Christianity => #Roman Period, #Byzantine Period
I propose that we break this into sub-sections under ##Roman period for the apostolic and early church era, and under ##Byzantine period for the Third Ecumenical Council, Council of Ephesus 453, and after. This breaks up the topic, but keeps it chronological, and the links will still be available in the TOC. Thoughts?Jaredscribe (talk) 02:34, 23 March 2021 (UTC)