Talk:Equine coat color

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Sorry, but letal white is no Albinism, lethal white ist Leucism. The cream-gen is a mutation of the albino-locus. Kersti


 * Your argument would be more persuasive if you spell-checked and cited your sources. The creme gene in horses is a dilution gene.  I will assess your argument if you provide me source material to review your claims.  Lethal White Syndrome is linked to the frame overo pattern in horses, not really sure if it's either one--leucism or albinism.   Dominant white does appear to be albinism if homozygous (WW) foals are born dead, but have the red eyes, I believe...however, will be willing to review horse-specific studies on the matter.  There is also an argument that the SB1 gene produces white horses, again, doesn't appear to be leucism per se.  See University of California, Davis, Veterinary Genetics Lab for the latest research.  Montanabw 06:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

When I wrote my last posting, ist was in the middle of the night in germany....

The source for the cream-gen being a mutation of the Albino-Locus and the W-Gen being a mutation of the KIT-locus which is linked also to most genes of spotting-types with black and white spots which are known in mammals. The roan and the tobiano-color in horses are known to be linked to the KIT-Locus as well. As far as I know, nobody exactly knows if the overo-color is linked as well to the KIT-locus, but it is likely to be so, because The second chapter schortly explains alsmost everything known in science about the genetics of coat-color of mammals in that year.


 * Krista Siebel; Juli 2001; Analyse genetischer Varianten von Loci für die Fellfarbe und ihre Beziehungen zum Farbphänotyp und zu quantitativen Leistungsmerkmalen beim Schwein Inaugural-Dissertation zur Erlangung des Grades eines Doktors der Veterinärmedizin; Institut für Nutztierwissenschaften der Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin

If you dont know to read german this may be no help to you. Wait a moment an I will look, which are the sources Krista Siebel had used.

Kersti84.138.38.112 17:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

For that the roan and tobiano color is linked to the KIT-Locus she refers to this sources:
 * MARKLUND, S.; MOLLER, M.; SANDBERG, K.; ANDERSSON, L.: Close association between  sequence polymorphism in the KIT gene and the roan coat colour in horses.  Doctoral thesis, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Uppsala,Agraria 79,V,1997b
 * MARKLUND, S.: Applied molecular genetics in domestic animals with particular focus on the horse. Doctoral thesis, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences,  Uppsala,Agraria 79,1997c

Additionally I found this: Mice and humans: Piebald spotting  (S) Endothelin Rezeptor Typ B  (EDNRB) white spotting, megacolon Human illnesses: Hirschsprungsche Krankheit, Shah-Waardenburg Syndrom Similar illnesses: Rat, Horse
 * BARSH, G.S.: The genetics of pigmentation: from fancy genes to complex traits. Trends in Genetics,12(8),299-305,1996
 * JACKSON, I.J: Mouse coat colour mutations: a molecular genetic resource which spans the centuries. BioEssays,13,439-446,1991
 * PAVAN, W.J.; MAC, S.; CHENG, M.; TILGHMAN, S.M.: Quantitative trait loci that modify the severity of spotting in piebald mice. Genome Research,5,29-41,1995
 * SVIDERSKAYA, E.V.; NOVAK, E.K.; SWANK, R.T.; BENNETT, D.C.: The murine misty mutation: phenotypic effects on melanocytes, platelets, and brown fat. Genetics,148,381390,1998
 * GARIEPY, C.E.; CASS, D.T.; YANAGISAWA, M.: Null mutation of endothelin receptor type B gene in spotting lethal rats causes aganglionic megacolon and white coat color.  Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA,93,867-872,1996

For that the cream color is linked to the Albino-Locus she refers to this source: BOWLING, A.T.: Horse Genetics. CAB INTERNATIONAL,1996

Kersti Nebelsiek 17:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll look at it, or at least what's online and what the horse-related stuff has...the late Ann Bowling was certainly the expert. That said, a lot of the color stuff in horses is different from that of other animals (such as the points on a bay horse being quite different genetically from the points in, say a Siamese cat). In the meantime, you may actually want to look at equine coat color genetics...this coat color article is sort of the "layperson's" version, while the genetics article is the more "scientific" one. Montanabw 21:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I found something new (the MATP-Gen causes oculocutan albinism type 4 (OCA4) in humans and the underwhite mutation in mice). Kersti Nebelsiek 08:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * A mutation in the MATP gene causes the cream coat colour in the horse; Denis Mariat, Sead Taourit and Gérard Guérin; http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/gse/pdf/2003/01/g350107.pdf


 * That sort of detailed info works best in the articles on the individual colors, so maybe see if you can work it into the cream gene article somewhere...might be something there already, not sure. Also check to see if wikipedia has an article on MATP gene (note in English spelling, it's "gene" not "gen") and if so, maybe it's a good idea to create a wikilink to the article.

Brown
Do you not have brown horses in america? UK, Ireland and mainland Europe brown is nearly black but for a bay 'muzzle' - Culnacréann  19:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Genetically, all "brown" horses are bays, carrying the E (extension) gene and the A (Agouti) gene. and they haven't yet sorted out the genes that control how light or dark the coat gets. In the USA, the shade is referred to alternately as "brown," "dark bay," "Mahogany bay" and (annoyingly) "black bay." Depends on the breed registry. I think the Jockey club uses "brown," but, for example, the Arabian registry uses "bay." Some people are insulted to have their horse called "brown" because it implies that the color is dull and boring. I'll look at the article and see if I can clarify. Montanabw 22:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Genetically, all "brown" horses are simply not black; that is all the French research taught us. The agouti-factor test identifies the recessive "a" gene, not the dominant "A" gene. Therefore we only know that the brown horses in the French study were not "aa". They were all either "a?" or "??" but there's no telling, at this point, whether ? = ?. So they certainly do have the dominant extension gene, but one cannot say if they have the dominant agouti gene. Currently there is a man doing research in a private lab in Arizona who is hoping to find that brown is analogous to black-and-tan (At) in mice and dogs. It does look that way, so here's hoping! The other problem is that it appears that brown can be at least as light in shade as bay can be dark. So, we'll see. Countercanter (talk) 03:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, UC Davis can test for the A gene, they use is as a cross test to determine if a horse is a true black or simply a very dark brown or bay. (I own a black that has been so tested)  And basically, if a horse has E, then it can't be a chestnut of any sort, period.  Montanabw (talk) 00:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The test identifies the recessive allele, not the dominant one.Countercanter (talk) 01:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Based on this site, it appears they can detect the A allele.  If a horse is EE or Ee, it might be black or bay, you would have to be able to detect the dominant A to know for sure, and A is dominant over E.  However, further discussion of this is on the Horse breeds project page, don't want to repeat the same debate both places.  Montanabw (talk) 08:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggested chart
This was suggested over at Talk:Horse and figured I'd drop it in for folks to work on. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't know how to work in the dilution gene modifiers other than the cream gene], i.e. [[champagne gene, pearl gene, silver dapple gene, etc...

Comment on chart
There is a chart at Equine coat color genetics that is very helpful, but take a look at the article here, though, and see if a chart would really fit the scheme: I think that some individual color articles may benefit (such as all the variations in Pinto horse, for example), but for this article, I don't think a single chart could be done. I'm open to debate, but look over the text in the existing article and see...so many colors are broken out into sub-groups and such... Montanabw (talk) 16:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The thing with the chart is, it helps newbies to horses who don't have your and I's long experience with knowing a color. You and I just KNOW what a bay/gray�/etc. is because we've dealt with them for so long. When I was teaching riding though, I found a chart like this above, while simplistic, helped folks see how to break the colors down into a workable base system so they could figure out what color a horse was. We're not just writing these articles for the knowledgable, but for the beginners too. That said, I'm busy today digging up fence posts (blech!) and don't have the time to explain exactly what is up. You'll note that I brought the concept up on the talk page before doing drastic changes (hint hint). I didn't think of this chart as replacing the article's contents, more as supplementing it. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL! It might work.  (My problem is that I don't really like charts except for really simple data). Maybe we could ask a non-horse person (like Gwinva or someone) to comment on overall readability or something?  The "World Book" approach, which sometimes works, is to put the simple version first, then get more complicated as you go.  Of course, if you think this article is complicated, try the articles like Bay (horse) Countercanter added all her info on genetics!  Or white (horse) where we try to explain maximum sabino from dominant white!  LOL!  But back to the chart:  The trick here is to not be redundant.  Thought:  Maybe your expanded chart COULD work in the main horse article under the color section?


 * For ease, I'd suggest removing the white adaptations/change/genetics. Take out gray and roan, and the chart is simpler. After all, in the end, gray and roan modify the base color. Anyway, bed for me. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Good info on coat colors
Montana, I see that you have tossed an 'additional info' link I placed here. That's too bad, because it was unique in that it explained the incredibly varied coat colors of a somewhat famous feral group, the Chincoteague pony (and therefore all the more interesting because man had little or nothing to do with the colors, it was all mother nature). It was also very interesting to see which coat colors had gone 'extinct' in this group, again, the result of mother nature. Oh well, that's a shame. Here's the link for anyone who wants to check it out: http://www.chincoteaguepony.hostingrapid.com --AeronM (talk) 01:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Aeron, the link was breed-specific. Once we start this, then the Mustang people, the Brumby people, the Paint, pinto, appy, spotted saddle horse, palomino, and god knows who else are going to think they can add in their links.  I've seen it happen.  Per wikipedia guidelines, external links are mostly for things that we can't put into the article itself, either due to copyright info or because (like, say, a rulebook or online textbook) they are far too complex to incorporate into the article.    If you had a good scientific or well-written general reference that was up to date and not breed-specific, it might have stayed.   Montanabw (talk) 03:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

More up to date info
I edited the page and added Sabino, other genetic modifiers (pangere and sooty) and added information on other colors, such as brown and bay.Narmowen (talk) 22:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Sabino was already there, in the "pinto" section. I kept the new section on sooty and pangare, but I tossed the rest of the genetics stuff for two reasons:  1)  There is a separate article, Equine coat color genetics, currently undergoing a major revamp by one of our best genetics editors, but also because each of the individual coat color articles also either has or is going to get a detailed genetics section.  This article is just the "home base" that contains a simple overview.  Genetics is far too complex to hit only lightly here.    Montanabw (talk) 02:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Pale horse
I was led to beleive that a "pale" horse is a creme colored horse, but although the word is used 4 times on the equine coat color page, it's not clarified. My previous beleif (and likely a common beleif) was that a "pale" horse refers to a white horse.

There IS clarification that a creme-colored horse is sometimes referred to as a white horse.

Not being a horse person, and seeing that the page is steeped in references to breeder science stuff, rather than layman terms, I didn't know where the "pale" listing should be added (or why it's not already present), but it seems incomplete without it.

That chart shown above would have been useful to me, as a basic understanding of what colors variations you'd expect to see, but it seems like only hardcore horse afficianados would be interested in the rest of the article details, and as such, the audience for that level of discussion would merely be here to confirm what they know, as opposed to learn anything from it. It's a great page, and I'm not suggesting it be taken down and replaced, but that chart could be useful near the beginning of the article, with more details availible as you dig deeper into the topic. My two cents, as it were.

--71.251.99.155 (talk) 01:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * There is no such official designation or color as a "pale" horse. Literary references may use the term, but in those contexts, they could be talking about a white horse, a horse with cream dilution, a gray horse, or who knows what.  Thanks for your comments, we do have an ongoing challenge here between accuracy and readability; especially because horse color genetics have changed our view of horse color so dramatically just in the past 5-10 years and even horse people are still arguing about it.  The chart, while not without potential, will easily bloat as everyone adds yet more nuance, it was a bit oversimplified as proposed.  I personally am not sure where the middle ground is, but your input is definitely useful!  Thanks!   Montanabw (talk) 06:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a scientific reference for this but believe it correct to say that 'Albino' horses don't live at all. All (living) 'white' horses which have pink skin, also have blue eyes not red as would be the case if they were albinos, and how 'white' they are is just a matter of the expression of the 'double dilute' phenotype. The American Paint Horse Association has done extensive research on Lethal White Syndrome and I think they are quite positive of the connection to the Frame Overo genetics but remember that many overo horses (especially in the early days of the registry and before) might carry more then one Overo gene and can be difficult to identify without testing. Dr Spoenenberg (sic) has identified at least three and possibly four, distinct, Overo patterns and genes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.167.56.169 (talk) 19:52, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * On the "Albino" thing, read dominant white and lethal white syndrome where we explain both in exhaustive detail. There's also overo and white (horse).  We're way ahead of you, though we may want to do a little tweaking on the language in this article and add more links.   Montanabw (talk) 20:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey, has anyone read Equine Color Genetics by Phil Spondenberg? It could really help this article I feel like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1003:B84D:6289:2AB2:BDFF:FE33:9348 (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2015 (UTC)