Talk:Exile of Jews in the Soviet interior during World War II

Anti-Soviet bias
This article has a clear anti-Soviet bias and contradicts its own source. According to the Wikipedia author, "after the invasion of Poland in 1939 by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, between 150,000 and 300,000 Polish Jews entered in the Soviet Union in order to flee the Nazis." The original source says that between "157,000 and no more than 375,000" (note how the figures were altered) fled German-occupied territory. In addition to that, "approximately 1.3 million Polish Jews [...] had become Stalin’s subjects after their home region had been occupied by the Red Army." It's most surprising that no mention is made of that small figure. One can also note how that article defines the "exile" of Jews as "mass deportation and internment". At some point in the article, a Wikipedia author writes: "Due to its knowledge of how Nazis treated Jews, the Soviet government moved Jews from areas such as the Crimean Peninsula into areas further away from the front-lines." Is that how one would define a "deportation"?. --Lamarque2017 (talk) 20:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

reply to comments above
I appreciate your views above. thanks! --Sm8900 (talk) 13:13, 21 May 2023 (UTC)


 * @Epicgenius, @Frzzl, those are all helpful points. thanks! Sm8900 (talk) 13:14, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * question, can you folks please help to glean additional data, especially from the articles which are pdf files of the book published by Wayne State University? that would be helpful just to get this article started with some initial ideas and helpful approach. i'll be glad to go through all souces at length later, and really do the research. thanks. Sm8900 (talk) 13:15, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Subject
I am afraid you are confused: they were interned in various settlements; Gulag labor camps were only for violators and "enemies of the people" (refugees were thoroughly sorted). But there were other kinds of involuntary settlements. Please cite the sources carefully and say it here exactly, what kind of settlement the source was talking about. You may also want to read "Forced settlements in the Soviet Union" and Population transfer in the Soviet Union to get some general context of what was going on. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 04:54, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ok, there are all helpful points. I appreciate the points and ideas from everyone here. thanks! --Sm8900 (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Lokys dar Vienas, i could use some help going through the pdf chapters from the book from wayne state university. this is just for the initial period, while we try to get this to DYK. if you could please help. i really appreciate it. whatever works is fine. thanks! Sm8900 (talk) 13:31, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I consider getting to DYK to be a misguided motivation. In the first place you have to write a decent piece of text. But whatever... As for helping with going thru chapters, sorry, I am very old an it is hard for me to focus on such fundamental topics. It requires lots of brain energy not only to read, but to properly summarize the info into wikipedoa. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 20:29, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Scope
The scope of this article is uncler. It talks about refugees, but it also discussed victims of forced deportation ("The deportation of Polish nationals and Jews to the camps"). It heavily focuses on Jews only, but there were non-Jewish refugees too. It also makes weird errors like the above quote referring to "Polish nationals and Jews ". Polish Jews were Polish nationals too. The article lacks hyperlinks to other articles, which further makes it hard to figure out if it is a WP:POVFORK or just a poorly defined attempt at writing something useful. Ping User:Buidhe in case they are aware of a possible merge target. At minimum, renaming this to Internment of Jewish refugees in the Soviet Union during World War II might help clarify the scope (assuming "internment" is the right word here?). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:03, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of sources that focus on the experience of specifically Jewish refugees / forcibly displaced people in the Soviet interior, for example:
 * At least three books:
 * Journal articles:
 * an entire issue of East European Jewish Affairs, etc.
 * This is a notable topic, not a povfork. There may be other sources, likely different ones, about non-Jewish experiences. If sources generally treat them separately, I don't see why they need to be combined, but the article should probably be moved to clearly indicate its scope. I suggest Exile of Jews in the Soviet interior during World War II to follow sources. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Buidhe, thanks indeed for your very helpful reply on this. cheers!! Sm8900 (talk) 14:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Buidhe, the sources and the article and the accounts ALL clearly state that it was NOT just Jews who were deported and then interned by the Soviet Union during this effort! there were huge numbers of Polish people interned, who were not Jewish! can we please change the article's title back, to include Jews, and non-Jews?! Sm8900 (talk) 17:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * from the article:
 * The operation to “clear” the Polish refugees from the former Polish territories of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, at first occupied and more recently annexed by the Soviets, began slowly in the spring of 1940. Not only Jews were targeted, but a considerably larger number of ethnic Poles had also moved from German- into Soviet-controlled areas after September 1939. The arrests and deportations reached their peak on the “night of June 29 when hundreds of thousands of people were arrested, most of whom were Jewish and the rest [ethnic] Poles.” They were taken from their homes or sometimes straight off the street. Even some refugees who had taken up Soviet-sponsored jobs, and some who had accepted Soviet citizenship were caught up in the swift and efficient roundup operations and summarily deported on the trains with the rest.
 * The suddenness of their arrest by Soviet authorities and the rapid events that followed— being herded into overcrowded railcars for a lengthy train journey eastward, often lasting weeks and into parts unknown—is described in detail and sometimes at considerable length in a number of the memoirs. Fela Steinbock tells of being arrested while pregnant and, together with her husband (who was not even one of the “refugees” but a permanent resident of Soviet- occupied Poland), being deported by train to a remote barracks camp in the general vicinity of Krasnoyarsk in central Siberia.
 * All the firsthand reports are consistent in mentioning the severe discomforts experienced during the journey, in particular the extreme overcrowding in the locked “ cattle cars,” the appalling sanitary conditions, and the minimal food and water available. All travelled for lengthy periods, but Anna Bruell’s journey of five weeks on the train before arriving at Tynda, located in the far east of the USSR, seems especially grueling.
 * --Sm8900 (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2023 (UTC) Sm8900 (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I know that, however, the topic of deportation of Jews specifically is independently notable from the deportation of other (former) Polish citizens. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  18:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Buidhe, ok, fair enough, but one goal for this article was to cover all of those topical areas. I would rather have a title that is wider in scope, to allow for that topical coverage as well. Sm8900 (talk) 20:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Whose goal? If you want to start an article with a different scope, go ahead. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  22:28, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Buidhe, why can't this article include that topical scope? Sm8900 (talk) 22:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it would be easier to start another article, since the sources and content of this article are just focused on Jews. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  03:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it would be easier to start another article, since the sources and content of this article are just focused on Jews. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  03:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)