Talk:Flag of Ulster

Redirect
Perhaps the redirect should go here to prevent another Lapsed Pacifist edit war:

(Flag of Ulster).

It is important that the redirect goes here because:

1. The background the the 9-county flag is described on detail on this page.

2. The Northern Ireland flag is also known as the flag of ulster or ulster flag.

3. the ni flag is derived from the 9 county ulster one, and it is important that both these flags are discussed on the same page for this reason.

Jonto 23:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC) --JW1805 21:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I have a suggestions:
 * Create Flag of Ulster as a separate page, which will be about the "Province" of Ulster's flag. Essentially, this will be the 2nd section that is currently on the Flag of Northern Ireland page.  There will also be a disamb note, and link back to that page.
 * Remove "Provencial Flag of Ulster" section from Flag of Northern Ireland page. The link will remain, and it will be noted (as it does now) that the NI flag is based on the Flag of Ulster, and you can click the link if you want further details.
 * Create Ulster Flag as a disamb page. This page will have both meanings: the "Flag of Ulster", and the "Ulster Banner", and will link to both.  There can also be some statement about the controversy.

Any comments? --JW1805 02:03, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

What controversy?

Lapsed Pacifist 21:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * See Ulster Flag. I put: "Some Unionists refer to Northern Ireland as "Ulster", but this usage is controversial." I think that's acceptable.  --JW1805 21:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I can live with that. I believe "Ulster Banner" is a very obscure term for the Northern Ireland flag. If this is true it should be mentioned.

Lapsed Pacifist 22:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, sweet compromise! Maybe we can avoid getting blocked again.  Well, my thought about "Ulster Banner" is that at least it uniquely defines the NI flag (no one calls the Flag of Ulster by that name).  I thought that was the "official" name of the NI flag also.  I will look for a source on that. --JW1805 22:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I forgot what I had written above. Apologies.

Lapsed Pacifist 03:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

hellloooo?

Ui?
Ui Neill is clearly plural, yet the version of the legend given here applies the name to one man. What gives? &mdash;Tamfang 04:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * An error, and if you fancy fixing it then it's probably worth mentioning that the earler flag, the "king of Ulster's own emblem" as Geoffrey Keating says, was "A yellow lion upon green satin,/ The emblem of the Craobh Ruadh,/ Such as was held by noble Conchubhar/ Conghal now holds." Angus McLellan (Talk) 08:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I cannot find the correct name of the hand's owner. &mdash;Tamfang 16:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Courcy
I've always seen Or a cross gules attributed to de Burgh; a quick look at Rietstap's Armorial shows no Courcy arms with a cross. &mdash;Tamfang 16:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Flag
I have changed the image of the Ulster Flag to the correct Ulster Flag. The thumb on the previous one was wrong.Seamus2602 21:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh??
I know i am not a scholar - but surely you cant just insert words like 'tuatha' without explanation?

--Wideofthemark (talk) 00:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

O'Neills and the red hand
The O'Neill dynasts first styled themselves as "King of Ulster" in 1364, after the demise of the Burke earldom (in 1333) that followed the original kings. Before 1364 the O'Neills were Kings of Tír Eógain, and in fact had the largest kingdom in Ulster for centuries. The first documented link between them and the red hand was on the arms of Conn O'Neill, 1st Earl of Tyrone, who died in 1559. So this in the lede needs changing a bit: The Red Hand of Ulster is a symbol derived from the O'Neill dynasty who were historic monarchs of the provincial kingdom, while the gold background featuring a red cross comes from the coat of arms of the Burkes, a Hiberno-Norman noble family.86.42.198.63 (talk) 16:25, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Update for Consideration
Id like to put forth this new version of the ulster flag as it more closely matches the colours of burke arms and the red hand shown is a closer match to the oldest one found in national library of ireland which shows the design according to records Caomhan27 ( talk ) 15:00, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriately referenced sentence
This Irish Times article contains no information about what the "flag of Ulster" mentioned in it looks like. There is no description, photo or video of it. It's being used in a loyalist context that makes it clear it's about the UB is an unreferenced assumption, and a false one. I have see the flag of Ulster flown many times, the idea that the "flag of Ulster" in the Irish Times article must refer to the Ulster Banner is an assumption, not a fact. Please provide a reference that clearly and unambiguously says "the Ulster Banner has also been referred to as the flag of Ulster", or I will be removing the sentence again. FDW777 (talk) 11:27, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Synthesis template added
I have added a template to the "20th century" section. Issues with this section are as follows.
 * 1) During The Troubles, the flag of Ulster was used by Irish nationalists as a direct contrast to unionists using the Ulster Banner is referenced by this reference. What the reference says is The Ulster Flag represents the nine counties of the ancient province of Ulster, and is one of the four provincial flags of Ireland. The flag is based on the crest of the O'Neill Chieftains of Ulster, who were renowned for their strong resistance to English rule, hence the flag is regarded as being Nationalist, so there is nothing about The Troubles or the flag being used as a contrast.
 * 2) As a result, the flag of Ulster is occasionally referred to as the "9 counties flag" to distinguish it from the Ulster Banner is referenced by this reference. What the reference says is ULSTER (Province, 9 Counties) FLAG: red cross on a yellow field. Red Hand of Ulster enclosed in a white shield in the centre "As a result" and "to distinguish it" is where the synthesis is introduced, since there is nothing in the reference about why that name is used.
 * 3) This is because the Ulster Banner has also been referred to as the flag of Ulster is referenced by the following references.
 * Irish Times, dismissed in the section above.
 * 11 Freunde uses the phrase Red Flag of Ulster, without explaining why it's called that
 * Parliamentary Debates - Hansard. 352. HM Stationary Office. p. 87 This is an incomplete citation, please provide full information so it can be verified. My investigation led me to this index page for volume 352 of Hansard. Looking down the page a link to column 24 is provided for "Flags" in the "Northern Ireland" section which would appear to be the right place. The page linked to doesn't contain any information on flags, but clicking "Next section" at the bottom of the page take you to this page which deals the flying of the Union Flag in Northern Ireland, which is presumably the discussion mentioned on the index page. There is no mention of the Ulster Flag, and there seems to be no mention of the Ulster Flag and the number 352 on the website according to google. Providing a full citation may prove my investigation to be in some way faulty.
 * Belfast Telegraph does reference the Ulster Banner being called the Ulster Flag. Hoever, like the other references, it doesn't explain why it's called that.

The synthesis is due to the cause/effect constructions of As a result, to distinguish it and This is because. Neither the references for point 2 nor the references point 3 say why the "9 Counties Flag" was called that. FDW777 (talk) 10:04, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

copyvio?

 * The Red Hand of Ulster (Irish: Lámh Dhearg Uladh), also known as the Red Hand Uí Néill, is a symbol used in heraldry[1] to denote the Irish province of Ulster and the Northern Uí Néill in particular. However, it has also been used by other Irish clans across the island, including the Connachta, the ruling families of western Connacht (e.g. the O'Flahertys and McHughs) and the Southern Uí Néill, chiefs of the Midlands (e.g. Clann Cholmáin etc.).[2]

This paragraph was recently inserted by a Person of No Account, complete with bracketed numbers. Does anyone recognize a source? Should it be paraphrased and kept? —Tamfang (talk) 00:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)