Talk:Forlorn hope

Etymology
Are you guys sure 'verloren hoop' means lost troop? As far as I know it means 'lost hope'. I don't speak Dutch, but I do understand it pretty well. Bertus 11:59, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

While not knowing any better, I doubt the last part on Shtraf battalions as Strafe and Strafbattalion are German words. Thus, it seems unlikely that Germans copied the "Russian Shtraf" tactics. Moreover, I agree on the last discussion entry that states that "hoop" means "hope" not "troop".

I found this term in C.H. Firth's "Cromwell's Army". Looking over the information readily available, this discussion offers the best contextual, if not etymologically interesting interpretation: http://49.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FO/FORLORN_HOPE.htm

As to penal battalions in WWII, the Wehrmacht was much more desperate for manpower than the Soviets, and I recall books by Sven Hassel about the German use of these. I doubt the Germans had to borrow the idea.

To shed a bit of light on the hoop/hope discussion: The link posted above says "Dutch: verloren hoop, from Ger. verlorene Haufe= lost troop ; Haufe, heap, being equivalent in the 17th century to body of troops". The quote above is a bit wrong as the grammatically correct German words wouldn't be "verlorene Haufe", but "verlorener Haufen". "Ein Haufen Leute" means literally "a bunch (of) people" and is still used in colloquial German today. I don't speak Dutch, but German and Dutch are so close related that people who speak one language can read most of the other, so I am quite positive that my interpretation of the Dutch meaning of "hoop" is correct. The similarities to the english homonym "hope" are just coincidentally, but it adds a sense of desperation to an already grim term and is bound to be misunderstood by a native english speaker who overhears the words.


 * Actually hoop can mean both "hope" and "a lot", "pile" or "bunch". I changed the translation to hope, but this may not be correct. Unfortunately there is not yet a link to a source.--MarSch 14:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * googling I could only find cooroboration for the translation of hoop as troop, band. --MarSch 14:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I speak dutch, and I agree with was written here. "Hoop" can mean both "hope" and "troop" (or "heap") . Personally I thought the main meaning here was "hope" but of course I had already read the English title of the article. It could just as well mean lost troop.
 * One for British readers: I too can only find hoop as meaning troop but, searching Dutch Wikipedia for enlightenment, a page high in the list of results was Tim Henman, the folorn hope of British tennis. Perhaps the Dutch have taken the phrase back, with its new sense, and the meaning hope does now exist in the language. --Old Moonraker (talk) 07:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No matter what you guys find on Google; as a Dutch speaker, I can assure you that "hoop" is the only Dutch word for the English "hope", and I'm sure any translating dictionary will confirm this. The verbs "hoffen" in German, "hopen" in Dutch and "hoping" in English have common West Germanic roots. The noun "hoop" in Dutch has two meanings. In its primary use, it's a derivative from the abovementioned verb, and means "hope". In its secondary use, it shares its meaning and origins with the English noun "heap". In the present context, both meanings are appropriate, and it's likely that this ambiguity was deliberate when the term was coined. I am willing to accept that a majority of English sources claim that "verloren hoop" should be literally translated to "lost heap", but the claim on the main page (the Dutch word "hoop" is not cognate with English hope.) is plain incorrect. I reworded the sentence. 71.166.119.170 (talk) 04:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Adding some examples:
 * Een hoop appels - a bunch of apples / a mountain of apples.
 * This word is not specific when used this way, it is general bigness, as is heap when used in English. For example: heaps of people use the word bigness!
 * Ik heb alle hoop verloren - I have lost all hope.
 * Een hoop kerels - a bunch of guys / a lot of guys. 
 * Er is geen hoop - there is no hope.
 * Het is hopeloos - it is hopeless.
 * English may have taken the phrase and not known which meaning it was, simply assuming it meant "hope". Then perhaps it went back to Dutch with this new interpretation. To Infinity and suchlike (talk) 15:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * English may have taken the phrase and not known which meaning it was, simply assuming it meant "hope". Then perhaps it went back to Dutch with this new interpretation. To Infinity and suchlike (talk) 15:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Outdent] Thanks,71.166.119.170, for taking the trouble to explain your edits: it's an important principle on Wikipedia. Equally important, however, is the one of no original research. You have removed a sourced piece of information (indeed, from the authoritative Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster) in favor of "as a Dutch speaker I can assure you". This input is helpful, as few of the other editors seem to speak the language, but it cannot justify deleting cited material with which you disagree. I'm removing it for now. By all means bring it back, with a published, verifiable source, but let the existing material stand: e.g. other sources, however, assert... or similar. Again, thanks for trying to help out here. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * As a native speaker, I'd never thought that Hoop in Verloren Hoop (literally Lost Hope) could mean heap or band. It's too bad the etymology is missing entirely, or at least I couldn't find it in the linked dictionary articles. To say that the English hope is not cognate with the Dutch hoop is a leap too far though. As noted above, German Hoffen, Dutch hoop, English hope. If this is indeed not cognate, please provide sources. For now, I'll just put in a call for citation. Hoop can be both heap/band/troop or hope. Remmelt (talk) 08:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have just added another citation in place of User:Remmelt's request, then read the discussion here. This is the wrong order, and I apologise. The issue is still in doubt, and the fact that three very notable sources state otherwise shouldn't mean that there isn't room for further discussion. I'm even considering a self revert! My big problem, however, is the need to prove the negative: to provide an etymological source to say that something obviously not considered in the world of etymology is untrue. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The confusion stems from the fact that "hoop" in Dutch means both "band/pile" and "hope" but it is obvious from the German words "Haufen" (pile) and "hoffen" (to hope for) that these are in fact two homonym words and not cognates. 82.93.186.160 (talk) 14:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

"Missing etymology" Here, verbatim, is the etymology from the OED: "ad. Du. verloren hoop (in Kilian 1598), lit. ‘lost troop’ (hoop = HEAP, Ger. haufen). Cf. Fr. enfants perdus. (Among sailors mispronounced flowing hope.)

HEAP: [OE. héap = OFris. hâp, OS. hôp (MDu., MLG., LG. hôp, Du. hoop), OHG. houf (MHG. houf), ON. hópr (Sw. hop, Da. hob) adopted from LG.; wanting in Gothic; :—OTeut. *haupo-z. In ablaut relation to OHG. hûfo, MHG. hûfe, Ger. haufe:—*hûpon-; from stem *hup-, pre-Teut. *kub-: cf. L. cumbĕre, cubāre. "

I hope there's something in it to move the discussion along. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC) --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * At last, and thanks only to relentless prodding from rightly critical contributors, I have found some scholars who specifically state that "hope" as "hoop" is folk etymology. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * My previous edit was not in discussion with the above verloren hoop = lost heap. That indeed is folk etymology. My point is that there is no sense in saying hoop (Dutch) is somehow not cognate with hope (En) or Hoffen (De). Hoop in Dutch has two meanings (at least), one being heap, the other being hope. Either the Dutch hoop is cognate with heap or it's cognate with hope, or both, but there's no folk etymology in that alone. Clearer still: the folk etymology is in the fact that most Dutch people think that verloren hoop means lost hope, where in fact it meant lost heap. No dispute there. My edit was just to make clear that the word hoop is indeed cognate with hope (or heap). Remmelt (talk) 08:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no cognation because the word hope in the English term "forlorn hope" has a different root from the Dutch hoop as heap. That's the point of cognation: they have to have the same ancestor to be cognate. It does, of course, have the same root as Dutch hoop as hope, so I have now written into the article which one is meant.  --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

To provide more information on this (unfortunately from a Dutch source), I looked up all meanings for hoop in a prominent Dutch dictionary (online version). They are, with translation to English: Unfortunately none of these meanings to hoop has any relation to 'troop', or to what's said on the sourced pages. My guess would be it's an informal use of the word hoop, where it could also mean 'bunch' (of people/things/whatever). I hope this is insightful for the Dutch people reading this. I am one myself, and it took me a while to convince myself too, but there's just no other reasoning than the one in the article that explains why a group of frontline soldiers is referred to as verloren hoop. --MooNFisH (talk) 19:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * opeenhoping van stof of voorwerpen - piling of fabric or objects
 * grote hoeveelheid - large quantity
 * hoeveelheid menselijke of dierlijke uitwerpselen - quantity of human or animal excretions
 * verwachting, wens dat iets aangenaams werkelijkheid zal worden - expectation, wish that something pleasant will become reality
 * toeverlaat - (place of) refuge, somewhere/someone you could turn to.
 * Are these modern dictionaries? Perhaps we need to look in a Dutch dictionary relating to the time when the word "came over". For example, it's in Etymologicum Teutonicæ Linguæ compiled by Cornelius Kilian and published in Antwerp in 1598 (but there were many editions). Perhaps I need to cite this. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Added. Few of the editors who essay improvements to the article have knowledge of Dutch, so thanks to User:MooNFisH. Now, do you have access to "Kilian"...? --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you guys sure the Dutch word hoop should be used as heap ? , I read your discussion and asked some german friends who are quite certain it should be used as hoffnung, considering they come from Bayern they are still used to a lot of old german. In my opinion it could be both, verloren hoop could be Lost heap of soldiers but since they didnt have any hope of coming out of it alive I presume it should be the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.169.93.78 (talk) 19:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * According to this site, the correct interpretation of 'hoop' in 'verloren hoop' is as in 'heap'. They site 'Onze Taal'. However, to state that 'hoop' is not a cognate of 'hope' is not correct, as in Dutch 'hoop' in the sense of 'hope' is the same word as 'hoop' in the sense of 'heap'. The explanation on false cognates does not cover the case where two roots were merged into one word. Dutch readers will continue to be puzzled by that statement until it is rephrased (or removed--it adds nothing to the article)... --Evertw —Preceding undated comment added 08:25, 1 April 2011 (UTC).


 * The short answer to "adds nothing" is: without as much detail in the explanation as possible the correct, strongly referenced etymology was deleted with wearying regularity, but this has now eased off. Thus, it's  a useful addition. More specifically, the point of User:Evertw's proposition has confused me: How can two, separate roots be merged into one word? Here two different words, in two different languages, with two different meanings, have two different roots.  The homophone is a tricky coincidence, but no more than that. Can anyone help by taking this a little further, to clarify?--Old Moonraker (talk) 09:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Forlorn hope translated as "lost heap" just doesn't make any sense. "Hoop" in Dutch can mean "hope" as well as "heap". Just like "ball" in English can mean a round object as well as a dance. If someone translated from their language "the goalkeeper kicked the ball upfield" into English as "the goalkeeper kicked the dance upfield" it would instantly be recognized it as a mistranslation. The only well-known phrase known in Dutch is "verloren hoop" which means "lost hope". Books can be untrue as well as any source so I'd want to see a good cited reference from a reliable source not only just an ISBN number before I believe it. SpeakFree (talk) 18:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * See http://translate.google.com/#nl|en|verloren%20hoop SpeakFree (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2011 (UTC)


 * It's way too disputable that 'forlorn hope' stems from Dutch. If it where, why can't we find it in use in Dutch language literature predating the first use in the etymology dictionary by Kilian? The first mentioning (supposedly) is from 1598 by Kilian. Can't tell, since I have no access to the book. Cornelis Kilian was a learned man for sure, but not a Dutch linguist, since there was no such study at the time. And at universities at that time students where taught in the Latin language. The elite spoke either German, French or Latin. The Dutch language was mostly for the common man. As far as I can tell, all authors since who mention forlorn hope, have copied the expression without seriously challenging it's origins by finding evidence. Since militairy history was well documented in Dutch history, why is there no mentioning of it? Or in documents like letters? The prominent Meertens Institute of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences mentions it as 'uncertain'. There should at the least be a mention in Wiktionary and Wikipedia that the phrase is of 'uncertain' origins. By the way I am natively Dutch speaking. -- oSeveno (User talk) 09:30, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

American Civil War
Apparently the British Army issued a laurel wreath patch to survivors of forlorn hopes.

Editors might consider adding a segment on the American Civil War, especially the action of the "volunteer storming party" in the Union attack on Vicksburg in 1863. It sounds much like a forlorn hope type of action.

B Tillman April 2007

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah... has no one looked into the Saxon shield walls of early England? The forlorn hope were one of the three more effective ways of smashing a shield wall. They were the troops that formed into the Boar's Snout, right at the front who'd surely die, but who would create a gap large enough for the rest of the wedge to push though.

Dictionaries give different derivations but so far I have not seen original documentary evidence. 'Forlorn Hope' is often said to come from the Dutch in the C16 as a military expression from the mistranslation already discussed here but at same time the word forlorn by itself is often said to be older and to come from Old English forloren (lost); related to Saxon farliosan.

Would it not be logical if the word 'foloren' or forlorn existed in English by C16 that it was not a mistranslation at all?

I realise the talk of punishment was in some way relevant where a misdeed might cause you to find yourself in the equivalent of the forlorn hope but why is decimation mentioned?

Uocg 02:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The mention of decimation of Roman ranks for desertion seems incredibly out of place with the article; it seems to be more focusing on the Soviet penal battalions rather than the folorn hope troops. While still on the subject of Rome, I remember there being a corona muralis or some type of crown-award given to the first soldier to make it into the enemy's walls. I can't exactly verify this, but I'm sure there's more on it out there. 70.230.154.248 05:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Forlorn hope in anime
Forlorn hope is the second of three demon items stolen from Koenma Sr.'s palace in the Spirit World in the anime/manga YuYu Hakusho along with The Orb of Beast, stolen by the characters Yoko Kurama, Goki, and Hiei. The Forlorn hope has the ability to sacrifice one life in exchange for saving another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.141.158 (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

cn -- see talk
I am very skeptical of this entire paragraph. I am skeptical that only Gulag prisoners who had been soldiers were empressed into the penal battalions. And I am skeptical that those who were heroic were rewarded:

I welcome references to these claims.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 01:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey GEO SWAN!

I did not write that section of the article, but Merridale's IVAN'S WAR, a critically acclaimed history of Eastern Front, World War II, made explicit descriptions about the Penal Battalions in USSR that mostly conformed to the text. Except that Penal Battalions that was researched were composed of political prisoners. I imagine cowards would be put into the Penal Battalions that cleared the mines. The Germans extensively used Penal Battalions for combat too; Gerd Ledig, author of STALIN ORGAN, was among them. German Sturmpioneers in some way were also used in the same capacity, but as highly skilled and well armed specialists in shock combat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.225.64.31 (talk) 18:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

The Donner Party
A subset of the Donner Party tried to cross the mountains on snowshoes. They called themselves "The Forlorn Hope". I added a link in the "See Also" section. I'll see if I can research enough for a section in this article, if appropriate. Here is the section in the Donner Party article. Authalic (talk) 20:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary
Thanks to User:Invmog, who has drawn attention to hoop in Dutch: "Etymology 2 cognate with heap". The source of the confusion is, as always, the separate Etymology 1: "cognate with hope".--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

French phrase
Does "Les Enfants Perdus" always have to be capitalized? Because, if not, then it should be uncapitalized just like the other phrases.--71.189.159.51 (talk) 10:47, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * L'Académie française uses lower case. The phrase was used for name of a Union battalion in the American Civil War who affected French-style zouave uniforms, so there it would take caps, but this isn't the usage here. You are probably right so go for it! --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:22, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Self-contradictory tag
The first paragraph says there weren't enough volunteers, but the last couple of paragraphs says there was serious competition to lead such an assault. Although it's not strictly contradictory (maybe there are sufficient volunteers to lead the attack, but not otherwise) but it's close enough that I'm skeptical. Tagging. Banedon (talk) 07:49, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Contradiction or Complication?
Don't shoot the messenger (pun intended) but isn't there room for all of the (mis)understandings and apparant contradictions detailed in previous posts?

For instance the answer to the 'Were they volunteers or pressed men?' question is surely 'They were probably both' and be neither a fudge nor an over simplification:

Sampling bias doesn't just affect who gets to write about their personal experiences, it also affects what works survive. If someone (forget who would be so entirely daft for a moment) decided to run a consumer questionaire on the Eastern Front in WW2 and got results like 'Every ambitious junior officer who led a penal battalion responded "It was an honour for the men - who all volunteered - to die bravely for the Motherland/Fatherland" would anyone be surprised? I doubt it, just as I'd doubt the veracity of expressions of enthusiasm by men obliged to go into battle in pairs so the one wihtout a rifle could pick it up when the one with the rifle was killed. (Unless the entire thing was expletives.)

Call me cynical but I strongly suspect 'I just wished they didn't catch me doing what got me into the mess' would have been the general answer to any such question from since armies were invented. For the same reason I suspect if the guys in charge - nobles, officers, revolutionary leaders, whoever - thought a frontal assault against overwhelming odds was worth a punt so long as no one very important led it really has been a factor since recorded history began, I strongly suspect the Dutch/German version was confined to the officers' club while the linguistically sloppy versions were commonplace even where people did know about the polite/correct Dutch root... because troops who understand their chances of personal survival are at best slender tend to be cynical and irreverent (and IMHO have a taste for truly appalling puns).

Until someone produces a definitive work (or more likely compiles a wealth of evidence culled from a mega-study of first-hand accounts (in themselves probably not entirely representative, what with the whole literacy, leisure to write and getting published versus being used as cannon-fodder issue) giving a complete but messy version then allowing the reader to decide gets my vote.

PS

The article covers some five centuries of warfare so until someone finds a way to chart trends that concisely and coherently reflect changes over that period: in the ways wars have been fought for that many centuriesl; prevailing social and economic canges; and latterly, politics... I think we're stuck with messy but interesting.

Ebookomane — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebookomane (talk • contribs) 17:47, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * There's no contradiction: it first says that there routinely weren't enough volunteers in German mercenary units, but at the end there's a general statement meaning that in many armies throughout Western history, there have been enough volunteers. Nyttend (talk) 15:40, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

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"Crazy Helmets"
I also saw a mention of this brigade in a documentary. If anyone can find a reliable source, it would be a good addition. Spicemix (talk) 11:00, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Kill zone
I find the following phrase horribly anachronistic: "such as a suicidal assault through the kill zone of a defended position" I can live with "suicidal assault" but I believe "kill zone" is a modern military term which seems out of place with forlorn hope. I don't have any sources except Shakespeare: "once more unto the breach" (Henry V). He certainly didn't write "once more unto the kill zone". But does anyone agree with me? Humpster (talk) 09:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, certainly jarringly anachronistic and the WP:TONE seems a bit questionable.--AntientNestor (talk) 09:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)