Talk:Garter snake

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Newmansr, Hartmacl, Murry4329.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Grass Snake
What kind of grass snake is intended here? Clearly not the Smooth Green Snake or the European Grass Snake? Billlion 14:51, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC) snakes will eat u so i LOLFAILLOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.201.223.206 (talk) 01:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Not grass snake, but garter snake. It's a different group I believe. It's just a type of snake that's very common in the US. FieryWolfSpirit (talk) 12:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Regional index for the species list?
I'm afraid I'm not much of a herper (and so wouldn't do this myself), but I think either reorganizing or annotating the species list would make the article much more useful to the reader. SB Johnny 15:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Garter snakes are not usually aggressive or venomous. I am a snake expert and have caught plenty of them. Not once have I been bitten by a Garter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.113.212.73 (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Gardens?
they are an everyday fing in the gardens!

Is there any reason for this sentence? I've seen many Garter snakes in the wild, but I can't remember ever seeing a Garter snake in a garden. 142.161.78.31 15:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * These amazing Garter snakes are so common in gardens and back yards that they are often known by locals as "garden snakes". --Kaz 18:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Locals where? Not saying its a completely wrong statement, just that its incorrect in one part, they are known as garden snakes in no single locality, aside from English speaking North America (the majority of their range). Its also debatable why they are called garden snakes, many types of snakes appear in gardens (according to the Bible they do their best work there). Personally I've always thought it was because garden and garter sound similar, most people hear garter and think garden (because of the snake's association), I did that myself when I was younger. A paragraph on the name should be added, at least noting multiple common names, if not the origins of each. Such a comment certainly doesn't belong in the External Links. 174.112.18.193 (talk) 15:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

In re above, I have seen them in my garden, and many other people have, too, if online statements are to be trusted. But I think the reason they are so often called (incorrectly) garden snakes is that people here the word "garten" and assume it's some German version of garden, and then substitute an English equivalent. I've detailed the confusion here, if anyone is interested. Cpurrin1 (talk) 19:50, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Venom
I noticed not long ago that the section on venom was removed from the main article, apparently due to lack of sources. It seems to me that the presence of garter snake venom is attested well enough in current writings. I have restored the article, as well as documented some sources that at least confirm that Thamnophis do indeed possess a mild venom.

I would suggest that, if it is determined that removal is necessary, that only uncited parts of the section be removed, rather than the whole section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.107.182 (talk) 15:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree
I agree with the IP poster's points. Lexein (talk) 06:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Diet
"When in captivity a 12" to 30" snake prefers worms. All snakes bigger than that eat mice. I would not suggest frogs for their likeliness to contain desease. Minnos are a nice treat but should not be fed all the time." I'm not English speaker, but for me it sounds like some nonsense. --Vikte (talk) 16:37, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

It just shows what the animal prefers to eat. They say a 12 inch to 30 inch snake (about 30 to 60 cm) prefers to eat worms, but larger snakes like mice. It's a bad idea to give them frogs to eat because the snake can get sick from it. Minnows are a type of fish, they're quite small, maybe 5 cm long, and should not be given for the snake to eat all the time. Hope this helps. FieryWolfSpirit (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

hello
garter snakes also eat crickets — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.246.29.39 (talk) 17:06, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Garter snakes do not eat insects such as mealworms or ants. I own and have raised baby garters, preferred diet includes night crawlers (red worms / red wrigglers are potentially toxic), pinky mice, and various fish live or from the grocery store. They are also known to eat amphibians, but I have never done so because it is impractical in captivity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.20.252 (talk) 00:21, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Garter snake vs. Gartersnake
The standard English common name has been changed from Garter snake to Gartersnake. You can see the full list by downloading a pdf here: http://herplit.com/SSAR/circulars/HC29/Crother.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grahamdm (talk • contribs) 17:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Suggestions
I think that a section focused around certain species of garter snakes that are in the middle of an escalating arms race with the rough-skinned newt would add a lot to this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hickman.209 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Tetrodotoxin Resistance
A great section to add to this would be their adaptation to tetrodotoxin (TTX), a potent neurotoxin. A common prey of garter snakes is the Taricha granulosa, also known as newts. These newts however, contain TTX. Snake populations in the same environment as the newts have developed a higher tolerance towards the toxin and are therefore able to hunt them. Nguyen.332 (talk) 05:23, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Co-evolution of Garter Snakes and Newts
A great study in the field of evolution involves the co-evolution of species. A specific example of this would be between garter snakes and newts. Since newts have developed the defensive mechanism of secreting tetrodotoxin from their skin, garter snakes have in turn adapted to have resistance to the toxin. Nguyen.332 (talk) 19:20, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

placental viviparity in garter snakes and other natricines
I don't have the original source for this handy (it's been known for so long I forget the circumstances of its discovery), but gartersnakes and several other types of natricines are fully "viviparous" in that a placenta brings the embryonic snakes nourishment directly from their mum's body. They are not, therefore, ovoviviparous. Also, there is a continuum including snakes (and maybe some other squamates as well) that use both methods to differing degrees, making it clear that ovoviviparity and placental viviparity are not simply black-and-white opposites.

The relevant wikipedia articles seriously need up-dating on this matter. (Reminds me of my even-then-outsdated high school bio book which said nothing of phyogenetic systematics and taught us only the Linnean system of taxonomy.

-Mia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mia229 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I'm rather surprised that Garter snake and Common garter snake both exist. CGS looks to originally be a redirect (based on the talk page, and indeed it was created five years after Garter snake (still three years ago). I can't find any reason to have two articles on the same subject, hence the proposal to merge the two together. Primefac (talk) 15:35, 14 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Don't merge the two articles; they are about two different subjects. The one article, "Garter snake", is about the genus Thamnophis. The other article, "Common garter snake", is about the species Thamnophis sirtalis. Lyttle-Wight (talk) 11:34, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Don't merge, one is about a genus with multiple species, the other is about one of those species. A merge would make no sense at all. FunkMonk (talk) 16:49, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Wow, you're right. I have no idea how I missed that. My mistake. Primefac (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Proposed Additions
This page already has some great content on it, but I've noticed that there isn't much on the anatomy of the garter snake itself. Myself and two of my classmates are proposing to add an anatomy section to this page with linking subjects that already exist on the §snake page. We want to further add to content that already exists on the page if possible as we undergo this endeavor. We plan to include photographs of the anatomy of the garter snake that come from public domain, and have a list of some proposed sources for page content that we would like to use to cover some of the basics. Photographs would be generated by ourselves as we dissect a garter snake in class. Our initial proposed sources are as follows:

-Bauchot, Roland. Snakes: A Natural History. New York: Sterling Pub., 1994. Print.

- Mattison, Christopher. The Encyclopaedia of Snakes. London: Blandford, 1995. Print.

- Mattison, Christopher. The New Encyclopedia of Snakes. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2007. Print.

- Parker, H.W. Snakes - A Natural History. London: Cornell University Press, 1977. Print.

If you think these would be good sources to begin with, please let me know. If you can point us in the direction of other useful sources that you are aware of, or other additions that you think would benefit the page that are along these lines, that information would also be helpful. Any input you have on our endeavor for this project would be useful, thank you.Newmansr (talk) 02:53, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Further Additions
In thinking about the anatomical information that we want to add to this page, we've begun to make a plan regarding what pieces of anatomy we want to include in depth. We will be focusing on Duvernoy's gland, which is responsible for venom production, the Vomeronasal Organ (also known as Jacobson's organ), which is responsible for sense of smell, and the skin of the Garter Snake (as well as all of its many elements). Our dissection of the garter snake begins next week, and we will have more of an idea of what information regarding these structures we want to include then. We will link information about these three structures to their respective pages. We did find one new source since last week that we would like to include, which I have included here:

Kardong, Kenneth V. (2015). Vertebrates: Comparative Anatomy, Function, Evolution (7th ed.). New York: McGraw Hill. ISBN 9780078023026

We will try to get other photographs of the rest of the garter snake anatomy, but will be focusing on these specific regions. If you have any recommendations for us, we'd love to hear them.Newmansr (talk) 00:40, 18 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi, ,
 * Sorry that you didn't get a response here earlier; most pages don't have a lot of eyes on them. You could also notify Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles with a link back to here.
 * For the anatomical findings, you will need to consider what is unique to or notable in garter snakes, and what belongs at the descriptions for higher taxa.
 * If your sources cover comparative anatomy of garter snakes versus other groups, then go for it. The page snake anatomy is currently a redirect to snake, which has high-level stuff for a general audience. But to write up a more-detailed, dedicated page by yourself would be a huge undertaking.  You would definitely want to check with the group to see if that had been attempted before.
 * Cheers, Pelagic (talk) 19:27, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Quick question—since there are a number of misconceptions about reptiles in general—especially snakes, do you think it would be worthwhile to include a section such as "Relationship to Humans"? This may help pique the interest of laymen. Karoluskaufmannis (talk) 02:26, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Gardener snake
The term "gardener snake" is a common mispronunciation of garter snake and yet it was presented in the lead as if this is an acceptable name for this snake. While many people may refer to these snakes as such that doesn't mean it is a correct term. None of the references cited in this article that are accessible via the web make reference to "gardener" snakes. This cited article does make reference to "garden snakes", but even that term was placed between quotation marks by the author, seemingly to indicate that this was not an official or accepted term. I tried searching the terms "gardener snake -garter" on Google Books and the first two page of results were fictional books or other books that were not scientific in nature. I cannot find a reliable source of a scientific nature that mentions this term or the term "garden snake" so I have removed these terms from the lead. Marchije•speak/peek 23:15, 29 May 2018 (UTC)


 * A common name is what common people commonly call something common. A common name doesn't have to be acceptable, correct, official, or scientific in nature. That's what scientific names are for, i.e., binomial nomenclature. In western Pennsylvania, gardener snake is the most commonly heard common name for two locally common species of garter snakes (Thamnophis s. sirtalis and Thamnophis brachystoma). Wright & Wright (1957) is an excellent source for common names, and they often list many common names for one species. The fact that they don't include "gardener snake" is probably because they didn't visit western Pennsylvania, and couldn't ask someone of that area, "What do you call that snake?" Lyttle-Wight (talk) 14:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

"nearly harmless"? Wdym?
In the first paragraph, the phrase "nearly harmless" appears without attribution or explanation. Says who? Is it venomous or not? Does it have fangs?of what length?will it bite people or not? Is it a useful predator in a garden with mice? Thank you. Lexein (talk) 06:26, 7 May 2019 (UTC) Lexein (talk) 06:35, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

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