Talk:Gerald Ford/Archive 2

Canada in G7
This section of text is referenced (#57), but the whole section has been lifted word for word from the CBC website. If the entire section is being copied and not merely cited it should probably be in quotes.

Combined ages?
Is there really any value in listing such obscure stats as the combined post-presidential longevity of presidents and their wives? For was the oldest ex-president in US history, and that probably warrants mention, but there is really no point in belaboring such obscure and contrived data. This is a biographical entry in an Encyclopedia, not a reference page for trivial pursuits.

Change title "Postmortem Arrangements"?
I'm pretty new to Wikipedia, but I was reading the article about the late President Ford, and noticed that the newly added section regarding his death had a section titled "Postmorten Arrangements". I think this should be changed to something less... technical sounding. Perhaps "Funeral Arrangements" or the like would be more appropriate. Just a suggestion to make the atricle a little smoother. Thanx & cheers! 68.111.13.92 23:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Dysan
 * I concur. "Postmortem" is really a medical term. Latin, for "after death." "Funeral Arrangements" is the commonly used term that is used profesionally by morticians. T.E. Goodwin 00:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

death date
change the death date template in the sidebar so that he was not born at age 93 and died at age 0
 * Should be fixed now.--BC 06:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Death date
Please note that the date given in the first line (Dec. 26) and and at the end of the introduction (Dec. 27) are not consistent.
 * fixed. --BC 06:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Gifted with uniting both parties?
Greta Van Susteren today quoted Gerald was a genius at how he united the Senate and House of Reps in Vietnam War period and American-Soviet space race and helped Jimmy Carter getting the Nobel price. I was unsuccessful at recording that message. RV

Death and Date of Upcoming 100th Birthday
Gerald Ford has died at age 93. It is a sad day. By the way, if Ford lives until 2013, he will be the first former President to turn 100 years old. Why isn't this mentioned in his article? 125.128.47.99 05:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * ...And if Ford lived to 2018, he would have been the first to turn 105... and if he lived to 2023, he would have been the first to turn 110. You could include "what if's" in every living presidental artical if you wanted to I suppose—but you gotta draw the line somewhere. I wouldnt object to the "if he lived to 100" bit, but I'm not sure how appropraite it would have been simply because of how unrealistic it was. 172.163.78.209 06:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, he's dead. Hard to live to 100 when you're dead. -- Charlene 06:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, what sense did that original post even make? How could he live until 2013 when you just said he died?   ReddShadoe 21:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Day of Death & where?
I have updated the date of his death. Originally it was posted as Dec 26, 2006, but indeed the correct date is Dec 27, 2006. The following article is listed as "2 minutes ago". Local time is 12:46 AM EST. The article states that the location of his death has not been disclosed. Is it safe to assume, however, that since Washington, DC is in the Eastern Time Zone and until further information is revealed as to the location of his death, then his death was indeed on Dec 27 and not 26. For more information as the proper date of his death check here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061227/ap_on_re_us/obit_ford Bstone 05:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Additionally, I am seeing the location of his death as "Rancho Mirage, California" however the AP news article clearly states that the location of his death, at present, is unknown. Is there any verification available? Bstone 05:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The first announcements were at 11:49 PM EST on the 26th, so he definitely died on the 26th. The article you're looking at that says "2 minutes ago" refers to the time that specific story ran, not to his death. Per the AP his place of death has not yet been confirmed. -- Charlene 05:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it very poor form to base a time of death on the last-updated time of a news article on a website. If the article is revised next Thursday, for example, his date of death should not be revised to next Thursday. Indeed, the statement from Betty Ford was issued at 11:49 PM EST and while not yet confirmed, he was known to the in the United States at the time of his death which places the time NO LATER THAN 11:49 PM. Of course, one can easily assume that since the Betty Ford statement was released from Rancho Mirage, California, that the time of death would be 8:49 PM PST or earlier. So while we need to await the official confirmation of place and exact time, the December 26th date needs to remain. CBessert 06:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I think the confusion came because Yahoo, Reuters, AP, etc. often say at the top of their articles something like "2 minutes earlier", which might lead people to believe that the event occurred two minutes ago, not the filing of the story. Betty said outright that her husband died on the 26th (as stated in the AP obituary), so that date should be kept - it's reliably sourced. -- Charlene 06:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you all got me there. I agree that until further information is revealed, the date of death should be Dec 26, not 27. However, it is surely not poor form to base someone's death date on published news articles by reputable news agencies. HOWEVER (I know, I already used this word), the article which I cited above clearly states, "The statement did not say where or when Ford died or list a cause of death." This may lead one to come to the conclusion that he died two weeks ago. Perhaps until more information is revealed, we put a ? at his death date? Bstone 06:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you've completely missed the point. We ARE basing the date of someone's death on reports from reputable news agencies. (Indeed, from the link you posted above, it clearly states, "Gerald R. Ford [...] has died, his wife, Betty, said Tuesday. He was 93." Note the word TUESDAY. Further it states, "...Mrs. Ford said in a brief statement issued from her husband's office in Rancho Mirage." So, Betty released a statement on TUESDAY from Rancho Mirage, California, according to this reputable news agency.) We were decrying the use of the last-updated time on the article as the basis of the date of death. That article will likely be updated a few times during the day today, so his time of death would need to keep moving if we based it on the time the article about the death was written. CBessert 06:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * CBessert, you are completely missing my point. While the article which was cited was published Tueday, December 26, 2006 the article itself says that there was no date of death given or where the late President died. As a result, it is completely impossible, with the given information, to have _complete certainty_ when President Ford actually died (and where). It is entirely tenable that, with the current lack of information, the late President died weeks ago and only now is this information being released to the public. Afterall, the very same article cites how the family was intensely private and often denied interviews to reporters. While unlikely, we must not rule this out. Thus, in the absence of more concrete evidence as to when the late President actually died (and where) it might be prudent for the editors of this wiki to add a "?" to the death date. Bstone 06:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * While I do understand your point, using you logic, we don't even know if he died in December based on that AP obituary. However, I am sitting in Grand Rapids, Michigan right now and all local news media are stating he died on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 and are NOT qualifying it in the manner that the AP is, stating that Betty Ford released the statement late Tuesday. Indeed, the website for the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library gives his dates of birth and death as, "July 14, 1913 - December 26, 2006." See http://www.ford.utexas.edu/ for confirmation. I hope this helps. 06:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * National television media (MSNBC, CNN, etc.) as well as local news media here in Grand Rapids, Michigan (e.g. WOOD-TV 8) have clearly stated that Ford died at 6:45 PM PST at his home in Rancho Mirage, California. I have yet to find an online citation for this, however, but it has been stated as "coming across on the wires" on local and national news media. I'll let someone else hunt down this tidbit online, though... CBessert 07:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Let's wait until we have an online version to link to until the time is stated in the article. I am still not convinced that Dec 26 is his death date, but I am willing to accept it for now. Bstone 07:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * One may wonder if you're calling Betty Ford a liar, then? But it's moot as the AP is now stating what I said above: "He died at 6:45 p.m. Tuesday at his home in Rancho Mirage, about 130 miles east of Los Angeles, his office said in a statement." See http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061227/ap_on_re_us/obit_ford (again) for confirmation. Good enough? CBessert 07:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That he died is not as issue. In Betty Ford's statement she did not say where or when he died, however, only that he did. In no way did I insinuate that she lied or is lying. Rather, I was being _entirely true_ to exactly what she say- that Pres Ford had died, but not staying where, when or how. Agreed, moot now.Bstone 07:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Everyone knows he was eaten by wolves. After overdosing on crack cocaine. These are facts, people, they aren't up for debate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.41.137.144 (talk) 05:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

Cause of death?
I am seeing the article in the "Death" section stating a cause of death as "Gerald Ford died at the age of 93 on December 26, 2006 of a severely impacted bowel obstruction at his home in California." To the best of my knowledge there has been no revealed information as to the cause of death. As well, this claim is unsourced. As such I shall remove it until sourced information arrives. Bstone 06:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Just as I was going to make these changes, someone beat me to it. Wow. I have, however, removed the time and location which was relayed as his death as the cited article contained no time nor location as to his death. Indeed, the cited article stated no location was known. Bstone 06:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think he died of natural causes. I mean, what do you expect at 93?  He outlived James Brown.  Fighting for Justice 07:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * See my notes above regarding the 6:45 PM PST time of death at Rancho Mirage, California... CBessert 07:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The above citation from the AP states: "He died at 6:45 p.m. Tuesday at his home in Rancho Mirage, about 130 miles east of Los Angeles, his office said in a statement. No cause of death was released. Funeral arrangements were to be announced Wednesday." I agree with Bstone that no cause of death should be included in the article until one is released. CBessert 07:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * OK I am sold. Bstone 07:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has referenced his cause of death as heart failure. T.E. Goodwin 09:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see this cause of death referenced in the article. Where is it at? Everything that I have read and heard have not disclosed this information. --Pinkkeith 15:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Check Wikipedia "Deaths in 2006." There are several references to his cause of death as being heart failure. In my opinion, the most notable are from CNN and The Washington Post. President Ford had a history of cardiovascular disease and as a result he underwent surgical implantation of a pacemaker to regulate his heartbeat last August 21st. T.E. Goodwin 00:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ex-Pres's
Any comments from Carter, Bush the Elder or Clinton yet? PMA 07:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Added Bill & Hillary Clinton's joint statement Xcvzxcvzxcvxcvzxcv 15:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I made Death a section stub.
Since the section consists mostly of commentary from others about his death, I believe the section is a stub, so I made it so. &mdash; Äþelwulf See my contributions. 07:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Death cite
Do we really need to cite his death date - we don't do it elsewhere on the 'pedia. PMA 07:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Stephen Colbert
This may or may not be a relevant source, though he did invent a new word, but Stephen Colbert, not too long ago on his show, said that Ronald Reagan is the longest living US President not Ford. He justifies this by saying that Ronald Reagan is the longest "elected" president and Ford is the longest living "appointed" president. I have to agree with this statement. I don't have sources for the episode of Stephen Colbert. Mattalexchav 07:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. He is the longest living appointed president.. in fact the only appointed president. It should be stated as, "Gerald Ford is the longest-living appointed president. In comparison, Ronald Reagan was the longest-living elected president."


 * I hope you understand the bit you refer to was a joke to get a laugh on his show. I saw the show in question and Colbert likes to let on that he is a great fan of Reagan, although astute viewers can see the underlying humor. While the statement that Reagan was the longest living "elected" president would technically be true, one could come up with countless similar statements. Ford, for example, was the longest living president from Michigan. He was also the longest living president named Ford. And the longest living president having graduated from the University of Michigan. Too, he was the longest living president having been regularly portrayed by Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live... CBessert 08:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

That's actually a pretty valid point. Just like many point out kennedy is the youngest elected president ever. Reagan still remains the longest lived elected president. Duhon 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's an awfully irrelevant point. One could make scholarly and equally irrelevant comments about Kennedy (tight race) and GWB (before 2004) on the basis of popular vote etc.  He was President, and the Constitution, other than making provision under the 25th Amendment to provide for the case, does not distinguish between someone facing election or not.
 * Appointed or not, he was still President.Sumoeagle179 14:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

First, I understand that "The Colbert Report" is a satirical show on Comedy Central. It is a good point that he makes and whether he in a supporter of Reagan or not, the fact remains that Gerald Ford was the only appointed president in our history and Ronald Reagan was the oldest elected president. Why is the news making such a fuss over him being the only appointed president and I get bombarded with people saying that it doesn't matter? Obviously, it does. Maybe you should mention that he "was the longest living president from Michigan. He was also the longest living president named Ford. And the longest living president ahving graduated from the University of Michigan. Too, he was the longest living president having been regularly portrayed by Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live (CBessert 08:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC))." Mattalexchav 06:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
There have been 42 presidents, not 41. Pablothegreat85 08:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"Ford is the only person in American History never to be elected to the position of President or Vice President " - Surely not?? There must have been literally millions!
 * True. He was never elected.. just appointed because of Watergate and Spiro Agnew.198.151.12.8 16:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but he was not the only person never elected to office. He was the only President never elected, but not the only person never elected.  Millions (most) of Americans have never been elected to office.

Would it possible to add, in the apprprate section, that Ford was the only President to be a National Park Service Park Ranger? He served a summer or two in Yellowstone National Park. The staff at the White House Visitor Center have a signed photo of him in uniform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.64.118.35 (talk • contribs)


 * Why is this important or significant? Brian23 19:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ford & Truman: I see the trivia section has been deleted. Anyway, has anyone noticed former President Gerald Ford died on the 34th anniversary of the death of former President Harry Truman ? GoodDay 21:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Death and state funeral of Gerald Ford
Should a new article be started for Gerald Ford's death and funeral date today?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_state_funeral_of_Ronald_Reagan Reagan had one, but Wikipedia was not around back then, so should one be done before the funeral or after?

ChaseS08 08:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)ChaseS08
 * I propose that the wikipedia community write a one act play about the Death and state funeral of Gerald Ford 24.60.163.16 09:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia wasn't around in 2004? GoodDay 22:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Unlock the page!
Before the page was locked I edited it to say:

'''In his later years new documents emerged that suggested that Ford had played a vital role in the cover-up of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The original first draft of the Warren Commission Report stated that a bullet had entered Kennedy's "back at a point slightly above the shoulder and to the right of the spine." Ford realized that this provided a serious problem for the single bullet theory. As Michael L. Kurtz has pointed out (The JFK Assassination Debates, 2006, page 85): "If a bullet fired from the sixth-floor window of the Depository building nearly sixty feet higher than the limousine entered the president's back, with the president sitting in an upright position, it could hardly have exited from his throat at a point just above the Adam's apple, then abruptly change course and drive downward into Governor Connally's back."

'''In 1997 the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) released a document that revealed that Ford had altered the first draft of the report to read: "A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck slightly to the right of the spine." Ford had elevated the location of the wound from its true location in the back to the neck to support the single bullet theory."'''

I also added a link to my page on Ford that explains how Gerald Ford provided J. Edgar Hoover with information about the activities of staff members of the commission. Hoover ordered that Norman Redlich's past should be investigated. Ford was also being blackmailed by both Hoover and Johnson (see for example page 209 of Bobby Baker's Wheeling and Dealing: Confessions of a Capitol Hill Operator, 1978)

I also included details of how he established the Rockefeller Commission in an attempt to cover-up the illegal activities of the CIA.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAfordG.htm

I recorded this editing at two forums:

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=5692

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8861

These were almost immediately removed from the page. How can this be justified? Is Wikipedia only interested in promoting a positive image of past presidents. If so, it will cease to be a reliable source of information in other countries already concerned by Wikipedia's attempts to control the way the world sees past events. (John Simkin)


 * Added to the page. At least the first part. Dr Debug (Talk) 15:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism is everywhere here with or without a site being locked. Unlock the page! This is a current event!88.198.5.138


 * Tell it to the people who keep trying to (and did on one occasion) add Tubgirl to the page. -- Charlene 09:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * One way around the lock issue it to register and become a wikipedia editor with some history behind you. Perhaps not ideal but it is a method in getting around the lock issue. Bstone 12:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * To say that there was a cover-up in the Warren Commission in this aspect is too harsh. Despite the criticism levelled against it in all aspects the contention that Oswald acted alone is still sound. Although Ford may have altered the text to support the single bullet theory, new studies have shown that even if the text was not altered the theory is not only plausible, but stands very well. 16:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia tweak
This is a very minor point, but in the trivia section of the article, there is a statement that Gerald Ford was the only president never to be Time magazine's Man of the Year while in office since Herbert Hoover. This statement is almost true, and can be made true by saying that he was the only president or president-elect not to be Time's Man of the Year. Jimmy Carter was man of the year prior to his inauguration.

Perhaps ironically, Betty Ford is so far the only First Lady to be Time's Woman of the Year, sharing the cover with 11 other women in 1975.

--User:PWB 27 December 2006(UTC)

Chevy Chase caused his defeat in 1976--hearsay!
This sentence needs to be rewritten: "As Chase commented, 'He even mentioned in his own autobiography it had an effect over a period of time that affected the election to some degree.'" We don't care what Chase said Ford said, if we can go directly to what Ford said in his autobiography and quote that instead&mdash;does anyone have it? Postdlf 15:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe"
Did Ford ever offer an explanation of why he said this in the '76 presidential debate, or what he meant to say? It's difficult to fathom that he could have been that ignorant of Cold War foreign affairs. Postdlf 15:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * He was that ignorant. Tonganoxie Jim 24.60.163.16 10:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

SNL/Brokaw
Umm, it was Chris Parnell and NOT Dana Carvey. I would change it, but I don't want to futz with a page under heavy readership right now. Atrivedi


 * You also don't want to change it because you're wrong. http://www.danacarvey.net/images/brokaw.jpg  I'm not quite sure how else we should spell this out for you. VelvetKevorkian 17:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Mea Culpa. Could have sworn it was Parnell.  My mistake.  Maybe you could have spelled it out by being less...jerky(?)...about it?  I screwed up.  I'm sorry. Should I slash my wrists over it? Atrivedi


 * Right, because you didn't go about it like a jerk at all. VelvetKevorkian 18:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you're right. Reading back over that, I'm rather sarcastic sounding, so sorry about that.  Peace? Atrivedi

When Was News Released?
At what time did the announcement of Ford's death make the news services such as the Associated Press? Did the news make many of the newspapers in the eastern United States? DasKapital 15:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It wasn't on the morning's print edition of the New York Times. Postdlf 15:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Masonic ties
No mention in the bio at all about Ford being a Free Mason?

He was a member of Malta Lodge and that eventually became Grand Rapids lodge No34. --thegrimmling

it was Carvey
check out this link:

http://www.danacarvey.net/carpics.html and this link too http://snl.jt.org/imp.php?i=2283

Carvey did the Brokaw bit with Ford, Chris Parnell was not a cast member till 1998, 2 years after this Brokaw pretapes skit aired.

Scat picture.
Lovely. I can't find it to take it out of the article, hopefully someone else can. As much as I hate to admit it, it IS pretty funny. VelvetKevorkian 17:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It has been removed Brian25 17:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And it was not funny. Carpet9 17:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Highly agreed. --Don Sowell 17:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean "funny" in the "disrespectful to President Ford" sense. I hope nobody misunderstood me as far as that goes.  If that were the case, I wouldn't have requested for it be removed.  I only thought it was funny that everyone who came here today was most unexpectedly treated to that lovely image.  VelvetKevorkian 18:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

HELP VANDALISM
Cannot delete sickening vandalism on Ford page. Please help how to figure this out!Mowens35 17:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Removed 198.151.12.8 17:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It was an image added to Template:Quote box. I reverted the change, deleted the image, blocked the user indefinitely, and protected the template. Postdlf 17:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Carpet9 17:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * So, was it this guy? User:RickBowman? Shouldn't his talk page have a vandalism warning or something? --Rajah 17:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was him.
 * Yes, it was that guy. A "warning" would have been pointless; he knew exactly what he was doing ("please stop hiding scat shock images in template code linked to from main page articles").  He's likely done it before under other usernames, as there have been other incidents of this specific kind of vandalism recently.  Postdlf 17:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"Impacted bowel obstruction"
I'm taking this out. I was able to find only ONE article out of 2,895 on Google News stating this as the cause of death, and it's not the one cited in the article for that fact, and it was added by a user who has about 10 edits. Fishy, fishy. N (t/c) 17:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think the news article got its information from that vandal's edit. Ooooops. This is why I think this article needs to be protected. (the offending diff) N (t/c) 17:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * He died of heart failureBrian23 13:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandal protected
I placed a temporary vandal protection on the article due to the recent rash of vandalism done to the article. Brian25 17:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your concern, but only administrators have the ability to protect pages. --Fsotrain09 17:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've now semi-protected it. N (t/c) 17:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I support the move. What is "I'm joking kiddies, I'm alive!" but vandalism? The protection must be continued as long as long as the article is on main page.--Vikas Kumar Ojha Talk to me! 17:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, only trying to help! Thanks for improving the protection. Brian25 17:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hyphen
I have a question about hyphen usage in this article. It's very inconsistent. In the lead paragraph alone there are both "Vice President" and "vice-presidency." The Vice President of the United States article seems to consistently use the space, no hyphen. The general article on Vice president seems to use the space with a lot more frequently than with the hyphen. So what should it be? It seems the space seems to be the more common way to use it based on those other articles. So should this article gain the same consistency? Metros232 18:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * A further look at shows that both are valid. We should follow what is on the Vice President of the United States article IMHO Brian25 18:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Presidential Coin?
A look at link #74 in the article does not have President Ford's name on it for 2016. In fact, his coin has not been scheduled. Are we to safely assume that it will be in 2016? I believe this statement should be removed from the Funeral section and the link #74 removed until we know for sure. Brian25 18:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Link: 18:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia section removal
Removed unsourced and unencyclopedic trivia section...these items can be sourced and put into the article. Trivia sections are for underdeveloped articles not for ex-presidents Jasper23 19:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you mean, trivia sections are not for well-developed articles on ex-presidents. That said, I agree with the removal of the miscellania below. Cheers --Vranak 01:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ford, Clinton, and Franklin D. Roosevelt are the only U.S. presidents who did not have full siblings (no president has been a true only child).
 * A sometime fashion model in his youth, Ford appeared in a winter sports fashion shoot, with his then girlfriend, model Phyllis Brown, in the March 1940 issue of Look. He and Brown also posed for the illustration that was used on the cover of the April 1942 issue of Cosmopolitan.
 * After leaving office, Ford did a television public service announcement for the Boy Scouts of America. The advertisement featured a long list of former Boy Scout celebrities, athletes, etc., each stating that when your son joins Scouting there was no guarantee that he would grow up to be a movie star, major league player, astronaut, etc.. At the closing, Ford's appearance intentionally surpasses all the others as he says, When your son joins the Boy Scouts, there's no guarantee that he'll grow up to be President..., but you never know. In 1995, the West Michigan Shores Council was renamed in honor of the former President.
 * Ford was also featured in a TV public service announcement promoting adoption. It featured childhood, and then adult, pictures of several adopted children who became famous (although Ford was never technically adopted).
 * Ford is the only U.S. President since Herbert Hoover not to be named Time Magazine's Person of the Year during his term.
 * Ford was caricatured in The Simpsons episode "Two Bad Neighbors," having moved in across the street from the family after George H.W. Bush left in disgust. He gets along famously with Homer, inviting him over to watch football, while the two drink beer and snack on nachos. The two trip simultaneously on the way to Ford's new home, with both muttering "D'oh!" at the same moment, showing both to be accident prone.
 * As president when Saturday Night Live first aired (October, 1975), Ford was the first standing president to be lampooned by the show. Chevy Chase portrayed him as genial, but confused and accident prone.
 * On October 26, 1996, Saturday Night Live aired a sketch in which Dana Carvey - portraying news anchor Tom Brokaw - recorded several pre-taped news segments predicting Ford's death in increasingly improbable manners (including "eaten by wolves") in the event that he should die ("at the age of 83") while Brokaw was on sabbatical. Ford died at the age of 93, 10 years and two months after the sketch aired.Clip via Google Video.
 * Ford died on the 34th anniversary of the death of another U.S. President, Harry S. Truman.

what is with the semi protection???
Rrrrrr333 20:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Anon-users have been vandalizing this page (more so, since Ford's death). There's no way to divide the semi-block, preventing only guilty users from editing. Suggest you become a registered user, then in future a semi-block won't effect you. GoodDay 22:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And what is wrong with a trivia section? I did not know most of these things until I read them. Fuzzywolfenburger 00:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all it is all unsourced. Second, trivia sections are for underdeveloped articles and should eventually be removed. These trivia items should be sourced and then placed in the article. Look up the wikipedia policy. Cheers. Jasper23 04:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no discussion of Ford's Vetoes...
President Ford vetoed 66 bills during his short two and a half years in the presidency. By contrast, President George W. Bush has yet to veto any legislation in nearly 6 years in office.

Included amongst President Ford's 66 vetoes, was the Freedom of Information Act ("FOIA"). President Ford vetoed the FOIA bill despite a great public desire for access to government information in the aftermath of Watergate. On October 17, 1974, President Ford vetoed H.R. 12471, the bill that would significantly strengthen the Freedom Of Information Act, calling it “unconstitutional and unworkable.” However, on November 20, the HOuse, and, on November 21, the Senate overrode President Ford’s veto. The amended FOIA, enacted over Ford's veto, now provides for judicial review of agency decisions, narrows some exemptions, restricts fees agencies can charge, and provided for a new statutory time limit for agencies to comply with a request. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.123.89.26 (talk) 22:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
 * President GWB has vetoed one bill... I'll leave it up to you to investigate further... Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  02:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ford is also tied for second place in the "most-vetoes-overturned" category. I'm certainly open to a section on Ford's most noteworthy vetoes, as with any President.  Anything more notable than the FOIA veto, or of comparative notability? Italiavivi 16:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

NAME Question
Typically, one drops "Jr" when one's father "Sr" dies. Did Ford do this? Was he sworn in as Gerald Rudolph Ford Jr?Mowens35 22:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Never mind, I just checked via the New York Times and elsewhere, including the Ford library/museum. He dropped the Jr well before becoming president, apparently because his stepfather, GRFord Sr, had died.Mowens35 22:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

name of this piece
I think it should be called "Gerald R. Ford." When sworn in, he used this name. This is a formal title. We should use this formal name. It would avoid confusion with the other Gerald Ford. If we wanted an informal title, we would call this piece "Gerry Ford." --johno95 01:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Talk to an admin and request a title change, if you like. If the change is made, when someone types in "Gerald Ford", it can be relocated to "Gerald R. Ford". Honestly though, the title is probably fine the way it is, since this Gerald Ford is without doubt the most well known. There isn't much confusion when someone says his name, and I can't imagine him being confused with someone else except on rare occasions. But, like I said, you can request a change and see what an admin says about this matter. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  02:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

umm, how do i talk to "an admin"? --johno95 13:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Links in the photo captions
I've added some interesting links within a majority of the photograph captions. You'd be suprised what you can find when researching on Wiki (or maybe not). Veracious Rey  talk  ↔  contribs  04:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Bob Woodward Interview
I made the following edit:, adding in the fact that he disagreed With Bush about invading Iraq. I think my edit was neutral. In any case, we'll need to guard against recentism by people who may want to include unnecessary details about the interview, etc. as this story unfolds. Gzkn 10:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification/Re-Wording Needed in &lsquo;Canada and the G7&rsquo;
1. “Gerald Ford never visited Canada during the short time he was U.S. president” vs. “Ford visited Canada often.” Did he visit often after'' the short time he was U.S. president? Or do these two statements conflict?''

2. “Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau had an ally in Ford, who supported Canada’s inclusion in the G8 in the mid-1970s. He [''Who? Ford? D’Estaing?''] invited the heads of a group called the G5 for talks, then added non-member Italy. But he [''Who? Ford? Trudeau? D’Estaing? Who is the “he” in this sentence?''] was adamant that Canada be excluded.

“Then Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau fought back [''Against whom? Ford? D’Estaing?''], and had some support from the leaders in Britain and Germany. ‘But Canada’s key friend was President Gerald Ford of the United States,’ Axworthy’s article said. Ford was ‘irate’ about Canada’s exclusion, and even considered refusing to attend. However, the president had a better plan. Just as France had invited Italy in 1975, he invited Canada to the 1976 summit in Puerto Rico.” ''This suggests it was d’Estaing who is the “he” in “He invited the heads of a group called the G5 for talks, then added non-member Italy. But he was adamant that Canada be excluded.” Yes?'' Felicity4711 11:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge this article back when...
This seperate article on Gerald Ford's death should be merged back into the main Gerald Ford article after the funeral and ceremonies are completed, and the news cycle on his death has concluded. But not until then. Veracious Rey  talk  ↔  contribs  13:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Vice President's residence
I changed it from "Number One Observatory Circle" to:

United States Naval Observatory in Washington]], D.C.

The address means nothing to me. Those who live in the DC area say that his home is located at the above. The address is not generally used. --johno95 13:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I have added back the specific address, since it talks about the VP residence. Now it looks cumbersome. HELP!!!! -- johno95 14:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

FYI I'm from WDC and believe me, we all know both One Observatory Circle and or the US Naval Observatory is the same thing. Also the White House website calls it by its address ... see the following site ... http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/life/vpresidence.html ... Mowens35 (having trouble logging on)66.82.9.63 19:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Longevity: longest-lived first couple
I am deleting the following. It is carrying statistics to an absurdity, and detracts from important stats:

Gerald and Betty Ford hold the record as the longest-lived First Couple at ages 93 and 88, respectively. The previous record (calculated using the combined ages of the two spouses) was held by Ronald and Nancy Reagan at ages 93 and 82, respectively, at the time of President Reagan's death on June 5, 2004, at which time Gerald and Betty Ford had already tied their record at ages 90 and 86 respectively. Prior to 2003, Harry and Bess Truman had held the record for more than 30 years — at the time of President Truman's death in 1972, they were aged 88 and 87, respectively. -- johno95 14:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * How is it absurd? Other than you simply stating that it is absurd, you don't support your claim that it is absurd. Frankly, it is important to note the ages of the couples for the sake of clarity and user knowledge. Come up with some reasons why it is not important before removing.198.151.12.8 17:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Longevity: Warren Commission
I am deleting this. it might go in the trivia section, but that was deleted. -- johno95 14:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

remaining Longevity section
perhaps someone could take the remaining two items, combine them, and stick them elsewhere. the are very similar, and are mentioned in part in the first paragraph! -- johno95 14:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So? You have never heard of an introduction and discussion paragraph have you? They need to stay where they are.. regardless of whether it is mentioned in the introduction and longevity section.198.151.12.8 17:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Swine flu was an important American event during Ford
Also, it is relevant today for today's pub;ic helath response. Please enter a piece regrading Ford's public helath response to the false paqndemic.

Change of intro section
I have shortened the first paragraph and mentioned Nixon. I think how he became president, and not by what amendment, is important. -- johno95 14:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reverted your changes. Remember, this article was given featured status, and your extreme changes of the introduction are not warranted. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  15:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You can't rewrite history! 198.151.12.8 16:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Longevity section stats recovered
Veracious Rey reverted my deletions in the longevity section, but did not indicate that action here, but rather on my private talk page. He claims that I did not justify those deletions, and that those stats are important. What do you think of these two stats that I deleted?

Ford was the last surviving member of the Warren Commission [74]

I think it is important that he was on the commission. I think it is meaningless that he is the last surviving member. Does that affect anything?

Gerald and Betty Ford hold the record as the longest-lived First Couple at ages 93 and 88... (I am not going to bore you with the remainder of the paragraph. It is in the piece.)

How do you vote for this statistic? I don't think any of this is important. I can't add to that.

Anyone have anything to add either way? -- johno95 15:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Quite simply, you are removing areas based on your own opinions. A section, sentence, quote, etc., being "meaningless" or "boring" are not justifiable reasons for deletion. They are opinions, and in my mind incorrect. If you look at the history section of this article, proper editing involves changing info that has evolved over time, enhancing captions or quotes, or adding new info. Removing info is tricky, and should be discussed first. If there is overwhelming concensus to remove facts in the Longevity section, then go ahead. But wait for consensus first. Please read this quote from Wikipedia on editing:

With large proposed deletions or replacements, it may be best to suggest changes in a discussion, lest the original author be discouraged from posting again. One person's improvement is another's desecration, and nobody likes to see their work destroyed without prior notice. If you make deletions, you should try to explain why you delete their contributions in the article talk page. This could reduce the possibility of reverting wars and unnecessary arguments.''

So, whatever you do, try to preserve information. Reasons for removing bits of an article include:
 * duplication or redundancy
 * irrelevancy
 * patent nonsense
 * copyright violations
 * inaccuracy (attempt to correct the misinformation or discuss the problems first before deletion)

Alternatives include:
 * rephrasing
 * correct the inaccuracy while keeping the content
 * moving text within an article or to another article (existing or new)
 * adding more of what you think is important to make an article more balanced
 * requesting a citation by adding the fact tag


 * Thanks. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  15:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's kinda hard to argue about a significant fact that the late President Gerald Ford was the last surviving member of the Warren Commission. For one, almost every news outlet has said it thus far at least twice. The Warren Commission was a big deal and to be the last surviving member is like being the last surviving member of the 9/11 Commission or some other body of government. As far as being longest-lived Presidential couple, well that is an important factoid. The onus is on YOU to prove why it is not important. To simply say it is not important is a matter of opinion.198.151.12.8 16:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Rey,

I appreciate you including those rules. They were quite informative. And if I had it to do again, I would not delete that stuff without a better reason. I guess I was inspired by Jasper23, who deleted the entire trivia section. And I was wrong.

However, in response to your writings...for such an important piece (as this one), we really don't need factoids in grocery list form. Like Jasper stated above, "Trivia sections are for underdeveloped articles not for ex-presidents."

I think the bit about the Warren Commission, or the Ford couple growing older than other presidential couples, is trivia. And yes, CNN gets into trivia.

So we disagree. (And I'm not sure why your opinion is worth more than mine.)

The other two stats can be worked into the text. -- johno95 17:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply. Again, you are stating opinions on why the info should be removed. The burden of proof is on you to prove they are not important, as 198.151.12.8 stated. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  17:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

words Capitalized
Some words are capitalized, and they should not be. I will correct this. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style -- johno95 15:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

deleted repetitive sentence
This is in longevity section. It practically duplicates sentence in intro. I deleted it.

"On November 12, 2006, Ford officially became the longest-lived president, surpassing Ronald Reagan." -- johno95 16:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Do not delete whole sentences. As V Rey has warned you, the sentences you delete may add to the article. Just because it is stated in the introduction, does not make it redundant - it makes it complete. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brian23 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

I just read the text supplied by Rey. See first item. I am trying to follow the rules. I do not want to delete things when I shouldn't:

Reasons for removing bits of an article include:

* duplication or redundancy * irrelevancy * patent nonsense * copyright violations * inaccuracy (attempt to... -- johno95 17:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't believe it is redundant.. it is restated. To restate something is not to be redundant. There is a difference. Brian23 17:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Brain23 is correct, when adding info to an article, it is common to repeat info in the intro, body, and closing. This is a proper way of presenting information. Veracious Rey  talk  ↔  contribs  17:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well stated, both of you. But when you restate something, you don't need to use the exact same words. That is redundant.


 * It looks like we all agree with wiki policy. Now we're getting into the realm of opinion...as to if something is repetitive or a restatement. -- johno95 18:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Please explain how two similar sentences are redundant. It is akin to an abstract and discussion section in a paper. Common practice is to state a summary first, then restate the facts in the discussion paragraphs. I don't see why we need to get into these semantics. Brian23 19:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we all agree or not, but if we do, then you should quit deleting sentences to be on the safe side, agreed? Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  18:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Brian, the intro and body would not be identical. The body would expand on the intro.


 * and Rey, i have quit deleting a while back. i said i was mistaken. Brian, are you deleting?--johno95 19:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No I am not deleting. I'm not asking for the body and intro to be identical. That WOULD be silly. I am talking about restating. Totally different topic. Here's the bottom line: You have agreed to stop deleting - great. Now you are resorting to pointing fingers which is silly. We aren't going to change it and that's that. Move on.Brian23 19:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

"last rites"?
President Ford was not a Roman Catholic, and I don't think his minister son is either. My understanding "last rites" is a Roman Catholic tradition, and I've never heard of a Protestant receiving them.Dr. Dale 17:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)Dr. Dale


 * I agree, this sentence sounded fishy to me when I read it. Why don't you research the matter and see what you come up with, then change the section accordingly. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  17:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought Gerald Ford was Episcopalian? Brian23 17:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_the_Sick

last rites is such a general term, not confined to Catholics. but i don't know about Ford -- johno95 17:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not an expert on religion, but it looks like Episcopalians also get last rites.. in some form or fashion. It is unknown whether he actually received them, however.Brian23 17:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

"No local clergy were present, but one of Ford's sons is a minister and performed last rites." Should be deleted, until further information becomes available.

His son,(from wikipedia):

"Michael Gerald Ford (born 1950) is the oldest of four children of Gerald R. Ford and Betty Ford. He is a minister, and currently leads the Office of Student Development, which oversees all student organizations at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. He is an alumnus of Wake Forest (BA, 1981) and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (MDiv, 1984). He was the president of Sigma Chi while a student at WFU."

"Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (GCTS) is an interdenominational Christian evangelical theological seminary"

Highly unlikely an Evangelical would perform last rites.Dr. Dale 17:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)Dr. Dale


 * We need confirmation he provided last rites, not speculation. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  17:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree we need truth not speculation, but the paragraph itself is not well referenced. I'm adding a citation needed tag. None of the references in that paragraph talk about "last rites".Brian23 18:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That works. Good call. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  18:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Nixon pardon
The article implies that a corrupt bargain DID exist, but the explanation makes no sense..Ford was presented with these options according to the article:

"(1) Nixon could pardon himself and resign, (2) Nixon could pardon his aides involved in Watergate and then resign, or (3) Nixon could agree to leave in return for an agreement that the new president would pardon him."

So, in all three options, Ford still becomes President, so why would he agree to anything? It implies something corrupt happened, but the explanation doesn't add up..


 * I agree.. The reference is for an Editorial/Op-Ed piece so it could be non-factual (Non-internet link). I read it yesterday and thought it sounded a little odd. Someone needs to research this. Brian23 17:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Paid Speeches
Gerald Ford was the first modern President to do paid speeches and corporate boards after his time in office and cash in on the presidency in that way. Nixon didn't do it, LBJ didn't, JFK died, Truman didn't do it.

Should this be noted in the article? Commercializing the office?
 * I'm not sure this factoid is encyclopedic. Bill Clinton plays a lot of Golf. Do we include that too? Brian23 18:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, getting paid to talk isn't a needed addition, unless of course a "did you know" section is created. But I doubt it... not very encyclopedic indeed. Veracious Rey  talk  ↔  contribs  18:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Link http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1989/4/1989_4_22.shtml

The Adult Years category
In order for the categories and fonts to make sense and follow a pattern, this piece should have an "adult years" cat. -- johno95 19:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If we were to follow that pattern, then it would not follow the pattern of other Presidential articles such as Ronald Reagan. These types of articles tend to follow a somewhat chronological pattern. Plus, we would then be seperating the article into two major categories: Pre-Adult and Adult. Gerald Ford can be much better categorized using the pattern we have now IMHO. Brian23 19:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's called section heading, not category. Also, is it really necessary? Some of the Early Years coincides with his "Adult years". This article got featured status, and apparently, this discrepancy wasn't brought up so I don't see why it should be changed now.  Nish kid 64  19:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to improve things. It looks stupid the way it is. But I understand that some people don't notice. --johno95 19:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Rey, did you reverse my "useless" edits? --johno95 19:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

from my talk page:


 * "I've spent hours fixing the headings in the Gerald Ford article, and you go and undo all of them. If you do no stop making pointless edits based on your own whims, I'm going to have to report this to an admin, and request the article be temporarily blocked due to edit wars on your part. Please stop undoing other users hard work!! Veracious Rey talk ↔ contribs 19:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)"


 * Rey, please contact the admin. All my changes were correct, and certainly not pointless.  It seems as though you think all yours are correct, and mine are based on a whim.  So put my heading changes back the way i had them, and we'll let an admin decide.

it seems as though you think this is YOUR piece. every time you revert my changes, it's the same as deleting them. remember what you said about deleting?

and if you're going to threaten me, do it here. --johno95 20:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Many of your changes go against the Wikipedia standards for style. While I am sure all of your edits are in good faith, they have been reverted because of this conflict. M e eples ( talk )( email ) 20:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Johno95, there is no need for belligerence. He is following the wikipedia standards for style. The standards may or may not be what you are used to.Brian23 20:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Johno, I am an admin. I already told you to read WP:MoS and I said your edits were incorrect and did not go along with Wikipedia style guidelines. Watch your tone there, and if you continue, you will be blocked from editing.  Nish kid 64  20:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * ok, i'll watch my tone.


 * and i wish you would (in the future) identify yourself as an admin. on this page, i feel like people are asserting that i am wrong, without really convincing me of such. if i know that an admin is telling me something, i will feel that i am getting a more objective read on this ongoing dispute.


 * did you make a ruling about assertions that i made unwarranted heading changes?


 * thanks. --johno95 20:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Users do not have to identify themselves as anything. The manual of style guideline clearly states that headings should only have capitalised letters for the first word and nowhere else. I believe you have been directed to the appropriate page already, so I hope you'd read it. -- Majorly  ( Talk ) 20:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, users don't HAVE TO do anything. But I thought it would help me. --johno95 20:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "did you make a ruling about assertions that i made unwarranted heading changes?" Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you rephrase/elaborate?  Nish kid 64  20:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I wrote that, but meant to delete it. (It referred to person reverting my heading changes. But I realize now that many of the changes were improper.)--johno95 20:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * While I am not an administrator, again I direct you to the guide on style found here: WP:MoS. This guide clearly states how things are to be formatted, and that many of your formatting edits go against this guide. M e eples ( talk )( email ) 20:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Meeples. I should have studied it before. --johno95 21:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

delete Warren Commission line
Here's the line:

"The Commission's conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald had acted alone in killing the President remains controversial."

I think it's important to say that Ford was on this commission. But isn't this line editorializing, or being overexpansive? I think it's ok to go into the controversy surrounding Nixon, because it affected Ford. But what do you people think about deleting this line? Or changing it. But I don't see how you change it. -- johno95 19:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not delete it.
 * No, it should remain. Ford altered the first draft of the report to support his Single-Bullet theory. His affect on the report and the conclusion regarding Lee Harvey Oswald should be stated. Although, I believe it should be stated differently and not next to the same sentence. I'm not sure how to move the sentence around or re-word.Brian23 19:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Johno95
Attention all: please monitor this user's edits. He does not conform to Wikipedia guidelines, has been reverted numerous times, and I'm looking into having an admin intervine. Thanks. Veracious Rey  talk  ↔  contribs  20:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this has pretty much resolved itself. M e eples ( talk )( email ) 04:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

fred phelps
the frontpage of godhatesmaerica.com says fred phelps wants to picket ford's funeral. should we add that he plans to p[icket it or wait until he actually does to add information?--68.92.112.162 20:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ford was probably subject to a lot of protests in his time, as any other president. I don't see the need to advertise anymore for the nut-case Fred Phelps. Brian23 20:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Who cares about Fred Phelps. If it's something that makes news headlines, then it's worth a mention in the article.  Nish kid 64  20:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Washington Post story
The Washington Post has a story that talks about Nixon and Ford's very close and personal relationship. Does anyone feel this merits inclusion in the article? --MZMcBride 05:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * For the purpose of pushing a point of view? Wahkeenah 05:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It would hardly be pushing a point of view if it indicated or shed some if any light on the pardon of Nixon. A fact isn't necessarily a point of view. Mowens35 (trouble signing in)66.82.9.63 19:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The article expresses some of the views that Ford held, delivered firsthand to the reporter of the above article, Bob Woodward. The fact that Ford and Nixon were such personal friends, to the extent that Ford described himself as Nixon only true friend, and the fact that the public wasn't made aware of this seems extremely relevant. For the past thirty years, Ford has repeatedly stated that the pardon was for the sole purpose of moving the country forward and past Watergate, however, it is now coming to light that their friendship was a factor (however little or big) in Ford's decision. I haven't the slightest clue how including information about Ford's views and his close relationship to Nixon would be pushing a point of view. --MZMcBride 21:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Intro sentence
The last sentence in the intro text currently reads "Ford came under intense criticism for granting a preemptive pardon to President Richard Nixon for his role in the Watergate scandal, and was subsequently defeated by Democrat Jimmy Carter in the 1976 presidential election."

I think this is badly worded for two reasons: (1) By fitting two ideas together in the same sentence, it implies the pardon has a lot to do with Ford's defeat. While this is possibly true, Wikipedia should not speculate something like this. (2) "Came under intense criticism" only concentrate on the negatives. "Controversial" is a more appropriate description for Ford's decision.

Earlier I changed it to read " In a controversial decision, Ford granted a pardon to President Richard Nixon for his role in the Watergate scandal. ... > ...Ford was narrowly defeated by Jimmy Carter in the 1976 presidential election. " But someone changed it back for some reason. If no one objects, I'd like it changed back. KeL 05:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll start off by saying that I have not participated in the changes made thus far. I would say that anyone who lived (or studied) the period would agree that there was a great deal of scrutiny placed on Ford's decision to pardon Nixon.  There were lots of theories (pardon-for-resignation deals and the like) that are irrelevant to this article, however the scrutiny is.  I also believe that we can probably find several acceptable secondary sources to cite that link Ford's defeat to his decision to pardon Nixon.  I believe that, when properly sourced, the change is appropriate.  /Blaxthos 07:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Many of the TV news reports this past week mentioned Ford's pardon of Nixon as a factor in his 1976 defeat. Wahkeenah 08:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not my point. It may very well be true, but this sentence is stringing together two unrelated ideas, in the introduction. I agree it's probably true, and I agree it should be analysed later in the article. But no one can ever say for sure what exactly led to Ford's loss, therefore it is not a fact. Only the facts belong in the intro. That sentence needs to be broken up so that the facts remain, but not the implication. These are two separate ideas. KeL 09:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kel. However, many historians agree that he lost his 1976 election due to the Nixon pardon. This is also in the article. It can be reworded to: "Ford came under intense criticism for granting a preemptive pardon to President Richard Nixon for his role in the Watergate scandal. Many historians agree that Ford's 1976 defeat was due, in part, to the pardoning of Former President Richard Nixon." I believe that fits the NPOV.Brian23 13:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I also believe that Brian23's suggestion fits NPOV. I would also point out that the pardon is probably the most significant event of Ford's presidency, and absolutely worthy of mention in the intro.  Furthermore, as evidenced by our unanimous agreement, the effect the pardon had on his 1976 campaign is likewise significant enough to mention.  When a "subjective fact" is almost universally accepted as true I don't believe it is necessary to bury it deep within the article itself -- the only issue is proper sourcing (for which I believe we can find plenty).  If there were even a significant minority of sources that claim the pardon had nothing to do with his defeat, then maybe it would be more debatable, but in this case I doubt we'll find one that disputes the causal relationship between the defeat and the pardon.  /Blaxthos 14:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

This article has become over-long. I propose creating a new article "Presidency of Gerald Ford", since that is the longest section. PatGallacher 15:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This article reached FA status. The previous editors and peer reviewers did not see a need for that and I do not either. It should stay the same. We should not fragment the life of Former President Ford.Brian23 15:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Overlong or not, it is a full accounting of Ford's life. (Has anybody seen the present Pope's weighty article? Ford's looks like a synopsis in comparison.) I agree that the article should stay its length. An encyclopaedia article should be not condemned for being long and detailed. That's the point: detail. (Mowens35, can't sign on, dammit, thanks to satellite)66.82.9.63 19:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Deleted passage
I have deleted this passage from the article:
 * According to Jim Marrs, investigator and researcher of the Kennedy assassination, and author of Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy (1989), at pp. 466-67, Ford was the FBI’s “spy” on the Warren Commission. Marrs based this conclusion, in part, on a memo from Cartha DeLoach, a close aide to FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover, in which DeLoach reported on "a long talk" with Ford on Dec. 12, 1963.


 * Former New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison, the only prosecutor to bring criminal charges related to the Kennedy assassination and the subject of director Oliver Stone’s movie, JFK, believed that Ford had the reputation as being "the CIA’s best friend in the House of Representatives.” According to Marrs: “Ford’s name as a member of the Warren Commission was recommended to President Johnson by Richard Nixon. . . . Ford became the Commission’s most industrious member, hearing seventy out of the ninety-four witnesses who actually met with commissioners. He also profited from his time on the Commission. Ford had his first campaign manager and former Nixon for President campaign field director John R. Stiles hired as his special assistant. Ford and Stiles went on to write 'Portait of the Assassin,' a book that presented selective evidence of Oswald’s guilt."

The previous passage on the debate on the Warren Commission's work and conclusions would be enough as far as this article is concerned. Personally speaking, I would not vouch for Marrs' or Garrison's credibility. While Marrs' Crossfire is a good book on the Kennedy Assassination, it is marred (no pun intended) by the fact that Marrs "seems never to have met a crackpot witness he didn't believe nor run across a conspiracy factoid he didn't accept". As for Garrison, even most conspiracy-oriented researchers consider him a crackpot who set back the field of JFK research by years. In short, the two citations given here should be taken with great deal of scepticism.

By the way, the film by Oliver Stone is based primarily from Crossfire and Garrison's On the Trail of the Assassins. While it is a great piece of film-making, it is reviled by most researchers by its inaccuracies — not helped by the fact that the person accused by Garrison and tried for conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy, Clay Shaw, was acquitted in less than hour due to lack of evidence. 19:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

"Law" section/parentheses
In the second paragraph in the "Law" section, there is a bit about how he worked as a model, in parentheses. The parentheses were not closed, and I fixed that, but I can't shake the feeling that this doesn't belong in parentheses. It doesn't really have to do with "Law" either, although chronologically this is where it fits in his life. Any opinions on parentheses? The style guide doesn't have anything to say about that subject. Xzqx 21:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right. I removed it. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  21:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Bisexual???
I had seen in the Marriage section of the article a mention that Ford had struggled with bisexual tendencies, but by the time I signed myself in, it had already been fixed. Keep up the good work!--Shuttlebug 23:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In my opinion it is important to be vigilant against subtle vandalism such as the sort that you mentioned. Expect them to do something else equally subtle.T.E. Goodwin 00:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Archive
I've moved all the posts over the last three days to the second archive. As far as I could tell, there were no open discussions. Veracious Rey  talk  ↔  contribs  05:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually I want to revive my discussion about the parentheses/model/law section. I wasn't saying the bit about him being a model should be completely removed -- I think it's very interesting. I just wasn't sure where it belonged. If you can think of a good place for it, please put it back in! Xzqx 15:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If you read policy on discussions, it's perfectly fine to revive converstations, which you have just by bringing it up. But, no one other than myself contributed to your post, which was made a few days before I archived the section. In my mind, the discussion was done. I agreed with you a changed should be made, I made it, and no one disagreed. The edit was minor anyway. Him being a model doesn't belong in the law section (or anywhere else probably). Pretty cut and dry. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  04:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Woodward on the Nixon Pardon
Woodward has published new info on the pardon which reveals a much deeper friendship between Nixon and Ford than was previously understood, and additional motive for the pardon. In particular, things like the quote


 * "Anytime you want me to do anything, under any circumstances, you give me a call, Mr. President," he told Nixon during that May 1, 1973, conversation. "We'll stand by you morning, noon and night."


 * "I looked upon him as my personal friend. And I always treasured our relationship. And I had no hesitancy about granting the pardon, because I felt that we had this relationship and that I didn't want to see my real friend have the stigma," Ford said in the interview.

This merits inclusion in the article.--FNV 01:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like to hear more concensus on this, but I'm okay with it. Just make sure you properly site your info and add a reference. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  04:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I concur that it merits inclusion. Krinsky 05:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Burial photo
I removed your photo because of its extremely poor quality. If you have a better shot, try adding it on Ford's death and funeral article for now. Thanks. Veracious Rey  talk  ↔  contribs  06:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Review of caps
I am reviewing the capitalization of "president" and "vice president" at an editors suggestion, as I made many cap changes the other day. I may make some changes, per the wiki style manual, which I initially consulted. -- johno95 17:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

note: "presidential museum" is not a formal name, so is not capitalized. "Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library and Museum" would be capitalized. -- johno95 18:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Childhood
Why was all the info about his abusive father removed? Ford talked about this openly, in his own memoirs, etc, and a proper citation was added re James M. Cannon, Ford's general counsel as per the source of the information about Leslie King Sr threatening his wife and baby son with a knife (Mowens35, having trouble signing in, thanks to satellite)67.142.130.44 19:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is what was removed by a user named Eman1114; can someone please put it back? I can't access the article due to satellite malfunctions! Also can someone fix the redundant mention in childhood re his mother moving to Grand Rapids? The second mention of this in the second graph should be deleted. Thanks, Mowens35
 * I just did that as well, Sir. Extremely sexy 20:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * According to Associated Press reports, Leslie King, Sr. was abusive and had a drinking problem, and Ford later described his father as having frequently hit his mother. James M. Cannon, the executive director of the domestic council during the Ford administration, has written that the future president's father threatened Dorothy King with a butcher knife a few days after their son's birth and announced his intention to kill her, their son, and the baby's nursemaid.


 * I'm not sure why this information was removed, since this set Ford on a very different path in life, even earning him a new name. Who knows how history in America would have been different if Ford's mother had complied to living with an abusive husband. As for the info in general, it is completely relevant and is correctly cited. So I put it back in the article. Veracious Rey   talk  ↔  contribs  19:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Ford: National Park Ranger
Gerald Ford was a national park ranger in the summer of 1936 at Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming. Ford later recalled that time as, "One of the greatest summers of my life."

Source: http://home.nps.gov/applications/release/Detail.cfm?ID=717

Ford was the only US President to serve as a national park ranger. I think this should be included in the article.

ParkRangerX 23:00, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This should be included in the article, but I am not sure where. Since he was 23 at the time, I don't think it belongs in "Early life/Childhood".  Based on the timeline in the article, it must have been after his bachelor's degree (1935) and before he started law school (graduated in 1941, normally a 3 year course).  --rogerd 23:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)