Talk:Gloucestershire

Policy
Certainly, policy clearly states that:

''Articles about counties should not be split up and should not be disambiguation pages. They should treat the counties as one entity which has changed its boundaries with time. We should not take the minority position that they still exist with the former boundaries.''

G-Man 21:01, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't want to get involved in matters of policy, but as a matter of fact, all three Gloucestershires (traditional, administrative and ceremonial) can be accurately described as comprising part of the Cotswolds, part of the Severn Valley and the entire of the Forest of Dean. Furthermore, the changes in the borders were perfectly clear in the original text, so I don't really see that clarification was needed. Cambyses 21:14, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * If you're treating counties as a "single entity" then obviously you must make a choice between the administrative county and the ceremonial county, since they cannot both exist and be a "single entity"!
 * The policy (what was actually voted on) states that we should "state which county a place is in is to use the current (administrative) county." (aproach 1) - this is obviously contrary to the current organisation using ceremonial counties, which are certainly not used for administration. In short, the policy is already a mess, self-contradictory and every single county article breaks it.
 * However, I shall quote from the same policy:
 * Examples of acceptable things: Middlesex is a traditional county of England"
 * Thus, so is gloucesterhire! It is also quite obvious that (even ingoring traditional counties) we must make a distinction between administrative and ceremonial counties, since they are manifestly different, and both refered to. Therefore, I shall continue to qualify them with "administrative" and "ceremonial" as appropriate. This is also perfectly acceptable under the policy. You will also notice that given Middlesex is a traditional county is acceptable, traditional counties should also be qualified in a similar way. Such clarification goes without saying in an encyclopaedia. The policy may be extremely badly written and full of contradiction, but I am not breaking it! 80.255 21:42, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The 1972 legislation clearly refered to "administrative counties" as "counties" therefore the use of the term "administrative counties" is obsolete. Legally speaking administrative counties are counties, you may not like this fact but that is how it stands.

This also assumes that traditional counties still legally exist, a view which is far from universally accepted. G-Man 19:12, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Terms can have more than one meaning in different contexts. "X, Y and Z shall be known as 'counties'" is very different from saying "All counties shall be abolished and replaced with X, Y and Z". Any legal entity that has never been abolished exists, whether you like it or not. The fact that a seperate set of entities has been created with a similar name is neither here nor there.
 * Another fact which completely demolishes your argument is this: in the 1888 legalislation, and subsequent legislation dealing with consituency boundaries (which continued to be defined using the historic Counties until around the 1920s) explicitly refered to these boundaries as belonging to the "ancient or geographic Counties". These, of course, haven't never been abolished, and no subsequent legislation has ever sought to name new entities "Ancient Counties''". Thus, "ancient or geographic counties" exist (and before you claim that "geographic county" mean "lieutenecy area" or "ceremonial county", it doesn't - this terminology has never been used in law, and was created single-handedly by ordnance survey). So, to recap...
 * entities are refered to in law as existing as "ancient or geographic counties"
 * "ancient or geographic counties" have never been abolished, either implicitly or explicitly
 * No subsequently created legal entities have ever been legally called "ancient or geographic counties"
 * Thus, "ancient or geographic counties" exist - this cannot be disputed on a factual basis! 80.255 00:38, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

As has been pointed out the 1888 legislation has been overwritten several times, so whether 'traditional counties' still have any legal existance or not is anyone's guess. It is certainly far from the ironclad fact you claim it is. I dont know how long your going to keep up this absurd pretence that medieval county boundaries still exist unchanged in the present tense. If you insist upon adding this claim then it should be stated as an opinion not as a fact G-Man 22:17, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Secondly, this article was using a perfectly sensible compromise of using the ceremonial county for geographic reference. I really dont care what you say, everyone else seems to think they exist.

See this: http://www.tellmeabout.thelocalchannel.co.uk/home.aspx?p=0&m=86

Which states

''Ceremonial County – These are areas for which a Lord Lieutenant acts as the Queen’s Deputy – every Administrative County has a ceremonial County of the same name, but the ceremonial county is in many cases larger, as it takes in areas served by Unitary Authorities. (So, for example, the Ceremonial County of Hampshire includes the area administered by Hampshire County Council, plus the Unitary Authority areas of Portsmouth & Southampton.)''

And interestingly also states:

Traditional Counties – These are counties that have no LEGAL or administrative standing, but still represent what many people continue to think of as “Counties” (These include Rutland, Berkshire, Herefordshire, Bristol, Merseyside, South Yorkshire, East Riding of Yorkshire

Pehaps you should also read this: http://jonathan.rawle.org/counties/hist.htm

Which states:

''There is much debate as to what constitutes a 'county' today. Really, this is a matter of personal choice and opinion. Some people use the names of unitary authorities as counties, others advocate the use of the so called 'historical counties' which EXISTED before the 1974 reorganisation. ''


 * Firstly, POV websites don't prove much, as you have many times pointed out! Facts prove, opinions on websites do not. So let's get on to the facts!
 * Reference to the 1888 (and 89) Acts as being still in force are not necessary to demonstrate the "Ancient or Geographical Counties" have never been abolished. The fact that after both these acts had been passed the term "Ancient or Geographical Counties" was still used to define entities that obviously still existed. Therefore, your argument that because the 1972 LGA Act refered to the newly created areas as just "counties", it somehow "overwrote" the original entities obviously doesn't apply - because the original entities had already been previously called "Ancient or Geographical Counties" in law - and as such obviously weren't "Overwritten".
 * The General Register Office's Census Report of 1891 distinguished between what it called the "Ancient or Geographical Counties" and the new "administrative counties". It made it clear that the two were distinct entities and that the former still existed. It provided detailed population statistics for both sets in its 1891, 1901 and 1911 reports. Note that this report does not refer to counties and administrative counties, but Ancient or Geographical counties and administrative counties - redefining the term "county" in 1972 had absolutely no effect on the former!
 * Prior to 1917, parliamentary constituencies were also defined using "Ancient or Geographical counties", so the term obviously had full legal currency. This being the case, it matters not that the 1888 act was repealed, nor that the 1972 act used the term "county", because it neither altered nor abolished the Ancient or Geographical Counties, which thus still exist.
 * You have yet to offer any reasoning to the contrary of this, and I rather doubt that you could, because it is fact, not opinion. By all means demolish it if you can, but simply claiming that it is and "absurd pretence" while all the legal and leglislative evidence goes against you is not very convincing! 80.255 20:12, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That is merely your interpretation of the law 80.255. As I have clearly demonstrated to you many well informed and knowledgeable people obviously do not share your view that traditional counties still 'exist' (In what form exactly you think that they still exist I really dont know). I am no legal expert but your claim that just because the traditional counties were not formally abolished means that the legislation still applies sounds mightily dodgy to me. The fact that you are refering to reports from 1911 merely reveals the anachronistic nature of your arguments G-Man 11:53, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have protected this page, as a request was made to Secretlondon, who is not available at present. I have protected the current version. Please continue the discussion on the talk page with a view to resolution of the debate. Reference to Naming conventions (places) may prove useful, and in particular Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (places) with the discussion which produce those guidelines. Warofdreams 14:25, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

(Sorry for the curious edit description; as I sent "Added links", my browser autofilled the rest from some previous page!) Bill 08:42, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gloucestershire Airport
I think there should be a link in here somewhere since it is quite a major feature of the county. Not sure where to add it though, so if anyone would like to give it a go... Robotmannick 10:54, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Info box - Traditional County
I've parked this at the bottom of the page for now. Unfortunately twin infoboxes are pushing the text way down the page (at least in IE 6.0) and the article appears blank unless the reader realises they need to scroll right down.

One solution might be to merge the infoboxes, but there may be other ways of dealing with this. I've experimented a bit but not found a quick solution. Does anyone have any other way of fixing it? Chris Jefferies 07:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Where this has occured on other articles its been moved to the History of.... article. I've done this now with this one too. I didn't realise there were any left still on the main article. MRSC 08:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that I'm entirely happy with the infobox disappearing altogether to a different article with no link from the main article. Futhermore I don't experience the "pushing text way down the page" effect either. Both boxes are right floats which (unless there is a wide image in the main body of the article) shouldn't interfere with the main text at all. Owain 08:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Owain, what browser are you using? I'm running IE 6.0 under Windows XP, if you're not seeing the issue at all it would be interesting to know why. Mrsteviec's remark 'Where this has occured on other articles' suggests it's not an unusual problem. Chris Jefferies 08:28, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think this started after the last wiki update. Berkshire still has this problem for me in IE6 on XP SP2 but is ok in Firefox. MRSC 08:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Firefox 1.07 on XP and Camino 0.8 on Mac OS X. I have seen the problem before as I say when the window size is too narrow and there is a wide image that won't fit across the page when there are infoboxes on the right. It shouldn't matter if there are one or ten infoboxes because they are all right floats... Owain

Hmm, definitely browser dependent, then. I've just tried Mozilla 1.6 on Win2K and it's fine too. Chris Jefferies 09:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Famous Residents
I know some towns/counties have this as a section, not sure how many there are for Glos. However, Sir Chay Blyth (although he was born in Scotland) currently lives in Box, which doesn't currently have a page of it's own. Kert01 14:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

There are many famous residents (allegedly!!!), starting with Charles and Anne of royal fame, Kate Winslet (Actress), Arthur Negus (antiques) actually lived in Cheltenham, Gustav Holst (composer), Sarah Siddons (Actress), Sharron Davies (Swimmer), Liz Hurley (actress/model), Chris Beardshaw (Gardening expert), Ann Robinson (Quiz host), Laurence Llewellyn Bowen (designer).

Hope this helps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.33.19.33 (talk) 19:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Ashcroft, Gloucestershire?
Hi; I just cribbed a bio of a Lieutenant-Governor of British Columbia, the Hon. Clement Francis Cornwall, who was born in Gloucestershire, but at a place called Ashcroft, which I don't find on your towns list here, or on the list page, or on the South Gloucestershire page. I do find it on a google search as an Ashcroft Road in Gloucestershire. Is this an older or smaller village or locality that's off the beaten track or otherwise obscure today, or has its name changed? Just wondering about dab'ing the link to it if there is one; currently to the Ashcroft disambiguation page, where I've put a mention of "Ashcroft, Gloucestershire" without actually knowing if there is one (ahem) other than because of my source (publ. 1890). It's important to the Cornwall story as the name of the ranch - where English culture was pursued in fortu, with fox-hunting (well, coyote-hunting with foxhounds) and the main venue for horse racing in the BC Interior - was the Ashcroft Manor, and the nearby town of Ashcroft has the same namesake, or rather being named because of the ranch, which predated the town y'see...though just barely...1860s; there's also an Ashcroft NSW in Oz which may be named for the place in Gloucestershire, whatever it is named now or whatever it was, vs being named for one of the many people named Ashcroft. Skookum1 10:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the OS Landranger Map (avalable online at www.streetmap.co.uk) the only extant likely candidate is a large building called Ashcroft House, near Bagpath, about 10km ENE of Wotton-under-Edge. It might be a (more or less) stately home of some kind, in which case both it or its estate could have been referred to just as "Ashcroft" - the word "House" would probably be used only in order to distinguish the house itself from the rest of the estate. So it could mean he was born either at the house, or just somewhere on the estate, or of course somewhere else which doesn't exist or isn't called Ashcroft any more.... Best wishes, Cambyses 15:16, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

That would be it, then; Cornwall's family, if you read his bio, were "untitled nobility" and no doubt had a stately home; from what I can see his father was a high-ranking Anglican cleric, and he married the daughter of one as well; it may be that the stately home was better-known at the time of publication (1890) also.Skookum1 21:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Broadway Tower photo - Broadway is Worcestershire
The article prominently features a photo of Broadway Tower. Although undeniably in the Cotswolds, Broadway is in Worcestershire, not Gloucestershire.

Can someone please confirm whether the tower itself- some 3-4 miles from Broadway village- is in Gloucestershire, and if not, replace the photo with a landmark actually from Gloucestershire? I suggest Gloucester Cathedral, Pittville Pump Rooms in Cheltenham, Bourton-on-the-Water high street or the Subscription Rooms in Stroud. I will go out and take photos of these myself if no legally-viable ones exist. 62.231.149.155 15:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've just checked my OS map and although the road alongside the tower is in Glos the tower itself is most definitely in Worcs (all be it only by about 100m). Jjasi 19:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

My School's Better Than Yours
I came here to read about the county, but found a bizarre pushy parents' contest. Is a comparison of local schools' A level statistics really, honestly, one of the most notable things about this historic part of the country? I think this is a dire case of schoolcruft - Cheltenham has managed to eliminate it amicably. Can we adopt the same model? Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 11:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In an attempt to be constructive, rather than just saying "it's all rubbish, this", I've added a brief section on the university and glos college. Maybe someone who knows could write a sentence at the top about the education system in gloucestershire, which I think is more appropriate to an encyclopaedia entry on a county.  Maybe something along the lines of "gloucestershire operates the two-tier system of primary and secondary schools", etc? Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My above comment refers to a previous revision of this page. I think the current version looks pretty good. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 13:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Flag of Gloucestershire
A link to the Flag of Gloucestershire keeps being added to the See also section of the page. I keep removing it as it has absolutely no official standing, has not been officially adopted and is simply as far as I can tell the result of an unofficial competition to design one. Does anyone think we should actually have the link? Jjasi (talk) 08:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the link is useful. If anyone comes across references to this flag and looks it up under the county name, the link will enable them to discover its unofficial status. No link, no information. Myopic Bookworm (talk) 09:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose. I'm not bothered by the flag itself, but the actual content of the article is of marginal notability.  It seems to be of interest only to enthusiasts of obscure flags (granted a valid activity) or those involved with the competition it talks about.  On a list of the highest value Gloucestershire topics we could have articles on (and hence links) I'd rate it a long way down.  If we do keep the link, I think it's because we don't have many decent articles on Glos topics, which is a bit sad. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 07:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Initiated


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Belton Knapp May festival?
I've flagged this addition because all references to Belton Knapp (currently under discussion in an AfD) come from the same user, none of which seem to be verified. Can someone either confirm or delete this statement (and preferable give their thoughts at the AfD too)? Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 11:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Notable people
I don't believe anybody consults this article to discover who the notable residents of Gloucestershire are. It's not information that I would expect to find in an encyclopaedia article. Readers can always consult Category:People from Gloucestershire. William Avery (talk) 11:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The casual visitor to Wikipedia wouldn't know where to find Category:People from Gloucestershire. I personally think it's useful information, but perhaps shouldn't be in the main body of the article. I would be happy to create a separate 'List of people from Gloucestershire' page, as there is for other counties (see List of people from Kent).


 * But as the editing of Wikipedia is supposed to be a collaborative effort I think it appropriate to discuss it here first - that's what talk pages are for.  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 11:55, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

It simply doesn't belong here. There should be a separate list, but it isn't something to be in this article. Each entry should be properly sourced and taken from individual settlement articles. --Simple Bob (talk) 14:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I know this discussion is a bit stale, but I agree. The long list of people from Gloucestershire who happen to have Wikipedia pages looks really odd.  Since it's almost two years since William Avery raised the issue and no-one has objected, I might be Bold and try it... Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 12:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

List of towns (and villages)
I've boldly rebranded the list of towns and villages to just towns. There really area lot of villages in the county, so I think listing them here would just be silly. I also changed the wikilink from one to Kingswood, Gloucestershire to Kingswood, South Gloucestershire, which I presume is the one intended.

More interestingly I think though is the remaining contents of the section. The list isn't complete: according to Category:Towns in Gloucestershire this missing towns are Cinderford and Fairford. Although I don't think a list of towns is the best use of space on a page about a county (when we have a perfectly good category), the set of towns is limited, static and can't get out of control. I'll add these two. If anyone knows if this is the full set it would be useful to know. But do we really need a list here at all? Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 13:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Is there really a place called Stretchit in Gloucestershire?
You might be familiar with this cartoon called "An Enquiry after Stretchit in Gloucestershire or the Sailors Reply" (version from the Royal Museum Greenwich, version from the British Museum).

But is there really a place called Stretchit in Gloucestershire or was it invented for the sake of the joke?

Contact Basemetal here 06:37, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

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The West Country Challenge
Would you like to win up to £250 in Amazon vouchers for participating in The West Country Challenge?

The The West Country Challenge will take place from 8 to 28 August 2016. The idea is to create and improve articles about Bristol, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, Dorset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire, like this one.

The format will be based on Wales's successful Awaken the Dragon which saw over 1000 article improvements and creations and 65 GAs/FAs. As with the Dragon contest, the focus is more on improving core articles and breathing new life into those older stale articles and stubs which might otherwise not get edited in years. All contributions, including new articles, are welcome though.

Work on any of the items at: or other articles relating to the area.
 * Core articles
 * Missing article hotlist
 * Missing photograph hotlist

There will be sub contests focusing on particular areas:
 * Bristol (Day 1-3)
 * Cornwall and Scilly (Day 4-6)
 * Devon (Day 7-9)
 * Dorset (Day 10-12)
 * Gloucestershire (Day 13-15)
 * Somerset (Day 16-18)
 * Wiltshire (Day 19-21)

To sign up or get more information visit the contest pages at WikiProject England/The West Country Challenge.&mdash; Rod talk 15:59, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Gloucestershire - In South West Region
There have been edits to the article to move 'Gloucester' into the 'West Midlands' region, with such edits being revoked. Some evidence for south west includes: If you feel Gloucester should be in the West Midlands then please provide citable evidence here so concensus can be reached. Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djm-leighpark (talk • contribs) 06:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It has been that way in this article for some considerable time
 * The BBC regional news considers it part of the south west region.
 * Notice even the 'The West Country Challenge' section above this one.
 * We seem to always use the European regions (even in situations where the name contradicts geography, like Oxfordshire being in the "south east"), so this shouldn't be controversial. --Inops (talk) 16:28, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not controversial. South West England has been a government-recognised region of England since the 1990s (and de facto for several decades earlier).  It has always included Gloucestershire.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Whilst Gloucestershire is in the South West region, your point about BBC regional news isn't true and is probably where the confusion stems from - Gloucester itself is part of the West Midlands TV region, and gets Midlands Today rather than Points West. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.163.190 (talk) 11:36, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This BBC page suggests otherwise, though this suggests some overlap. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * BBC regions have more to do with transmitter coverage than political areas. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 14:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yep. TV transmitter coverage doesn't respect lines on a map, it's influenced by things like hills. In certain parts of north Oxfordshire, you can pick up reasonably-strong TV signals from Oxford (South TV region), Sandy Heath (East) and Sutton Coldfield (Midlands). Oxfordshire is in South East England, most of which is covered by three TV regions - London, South (east of a line roughly joining Guildford and Littlehampton) and South East (east of that line). -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Michael Jackson
The fact that Jackson once recorded a song mentioning Gloucestershire (see this edit) is not reliably sourced (WP:YT) and in any case is of no relevance whatever to an encyclopedia article about the county. Agreed? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:20, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed Murgatroyd49 (talk) 10:39, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's WP:FANCRUFT. After all, we don't mention "The Elements" on our articles about antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, rhenium and 90+ others. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 00:11, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

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