Talk:Gmina

Gmina v. commune
I think I detect a glimmer of a consensus that we prefer to use gmina (and Gmina Xyz) rather than commune and Xyz Commune. I've re-edited this page (and some others) on this basis. Kotniski 17:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is valid, because 'gmina' is the subject of the page, and therefore other than the section giving translations, it is the only choice. Lublin Trev (talk) 09:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

if that's the case why does the first line give municipality as an equivalent? It would be useful to explain in the article why municipality or commune are not adequate translations. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Why not use adequate existing English-language equivalents?  Nihil novi (talk) 19:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm also against the use of gmina in English. I always translate it as commune, which is easily understandable to foreigners.Sylwia Ufnalska (talk) 07:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not easily understandable, it just gets translated that way because it has always been used that way by Polish translators since the communist era. If this were France or Italy, then it would be fine, because both countries have a history that uses it without being communist nations. So we have a confusion here between historic periods - if Poland is no longer communist, then do we keep using 'commune' just because translators do not want to change? Lublin Trev (talk) 08:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposals
I've made a list of proposals about Gmina article names and categories. See Category talk:Gminas of Poland. --Kotniski 19:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Shared mayor
''Some rural gminas have their seat in a town which is outside the gmina's division. For example, the rural Gmina Augustów is administered from the town of Augustów, but does not include the town, as Augustów is an urban type gmina in its own right.''

That's clear. This article could perhaps give a bit more information about what such pairs can and cannot share. The town hall building, I suppose. A website, so to see. The coat of arms, may be. Twin towns? Or even the mayor? Fransvannes (talk) 09:40, 3 October 2011 (UTC) For instance: Gmina Łobez versus Łobez

Gmina v. municipality
Related to the above section "Gmina v. commune", I wonder why the municipalities of Poland do not use English names. The voivodeship and county articles all use English titles and are located at X Voidvodship (e.g. województwo lubelskie becomes Lublin Voivodeship) and X County (e.g. powiat lubelski becomes Lublin County). So if a gmina is a municipality, the analogous transformation would turn Gmina Annopol into Annopol Municipality. This is done for other countries too: JelgavaLV (talk) 06:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, with one reservation:
 * "A municipality is usually an urban administrative division..."
 * Polish "gminas", on the other hand, are legally of 3 types:
 * 1. urban gmina;
 * 2. rural gmina;
 * 3. urban-rural gmina.
 * A "rural municipality" seems a contradiction in terms.
 * On the other hand, the word "commune" could be used as an English equivalent for the Polish "gmina". A "commune" can be urban or rural — or "urban-rural".
 * Two other considerations also favor "commune":
 * Derivation: the word "gmina" derives from the German word "Gemeinde", meaning "community" — a word that is cognate with "commune".
 * Convenience: 2 syllables vs. 6.
 * In any case, an English expression would be preferable to the English Wikipedia's current use of "gmina". (The English Wikipedia already uses the English term "county" for the Polish "powiat".)
 * Nihil novi (talk) 09:11, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm also against the use of gmina in English. I always translate it as commune.Sylwia Ufnalska (talk) 07:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are you against its use? I proofread translations by Polish translators as a job, and there are many, many standard errors due to the way it is taught. 'Gmina' has a history, and could be translated different ways, but the question is how do people feel using 'commune' when they live in a post-communist country? Lublin Trev (talk) 08:11, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This is probably one of those "old world" versus "new world" dilemas. The municipality is the word to use, because the municipality can exist even without a single resident, as shown here: The "gmina" idea comes from the Polish traditional concept of pre-industrial village, where the so-called peasants used to live in past centuries. In English, it is called the "one-horse town", not "a one-horse village" (maybe a one-ski lift village?). I would definitely support renaming the Gminas into Municipalities in Poland or perhaps Municipality (Poland), in line with most other countries, if it ever went through... I would however still keep Gminas in mainspace particularly in the context of past centuries, with a redirect if necessary. Thanks,  Poeticbent  talk  16:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a lot of mockery, and it's funny to talk about it 103.162.83.122 (talk) 07:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The problem is that Wikipedia uses wrong names of communes. For example correct name is Wólka, not Gmina Wólka – word “gmina” is not part of communes’ names (as well as word “miasto” [town, city] is not part of names of towns in Poland). These wrong names are used in Polish Wikipedia as well. So, correct titles of articles should be in form “Wólka (commune)”.
 * You're correct about one thing... The word "miasto" in never a part of the official name of the city in Poland; however, the noun "Gmina" by all means is a part of the official name. — Gmina Wólka is the official name of the municipality per both its own homepage and the government records. So, the full rendering of the name in English would have to remain Gmina Wólka (as municipality), or Gmina Wólka (as commune). — Going back to what I proposed, this is exactly where the word "Gmina" would have to be retained in mainspace as both the title and the opening phrase of each entry, followed by "... is a rural municipality (administrative district) in Lublin County..." Poeticbent  talk  10:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but in Poland official names of communes are only names listed in Dziennik Ustaw (Official Gazette). You can read about it in . Local web sites in Poland (sometimes government web sites too) are full of mistakes. Please, check official sources and registers – word “gmina” is not part of name of any commune in Poland. Aotearoa (talk) 15:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I only wish I could add a photo of the many gmina buildings in Poland with the use of 'gmina' in the title. I do not know whether that is relevant? Lublin Trev (talk) 08:27, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link to the Toponymic Guidelines of Poland (for Map Editors and Other Users) in Polish and English, published by the Head Office of Geodesy and Cartography, Warsaw 2010. I searched that PDF document for "Wólka" (111 pages) and found nothing of course. There's a section called "Communes" with three paragraphs. There is a list of counties also (powiaty) in Polish followed by names of town/city only, in the so-called English language column. Anyhow, the source in not definitive. It is not helpful with regard to what we should and should not do. I have nothing else to add to that. Poeticbent  talk  17:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * In this publication you can read about low according to which communes’ names are established (page 55) and about communes names (p. 79). All names of communes you can find here (list published by Head Office of Geodesy and Cartography), and here (lis of Central Statistical Office), and in the act of Council of the Ministers, as well as act on name change of four communes act on name change of four communes (§ 4): [“Z dniem 1 stycznia 2004 r. zmienia się nazwy i siedziby władz następujących gmin: 1) w województwie lubelskim, w powiecie opolskim – gminy Józefów z siedzibą władz w Józefowie na Józefów nad Wisłą z siedzibą władz w Józefowie nad Wisłą...” = “Since 1 of January 2004 the names as well as names of seats of following communes are changed: 1) in Lubelskie Voivodship in Opolski County – the commune of Józefów with seat in Józefów to Józefów nad Wisłą with seat in Józefów nad Wisłą...”]. Aotearoa (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC) PS. According to your links. In the second one the name of commune is clearly listed (Gmina: Wólka). Names such “Urząd Gminy Wólka” are names of commune office not the commune itself (similarly in towns we have names of such offices as Urząd Miasta Milanówek).
 * Cleary information about gminas names with full list of gminas names from a website of the Commission on Standardization of Geographical Names Outside the Republic of Poland. Aotearoa (talk) 09:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * How much does the fact that non-English style alphabets influence the results? How would you use 'Община' for Bulgaria in English, for example? Lublin Trev (talk) 08:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

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Auxillary units
I want to make sure I understand something. When you have an urban-rural gmina such as Gmina Suchowola, and you see maps on here showing divisions within the gmina - I assumed in this case the internal boundaries are showing the town of Suchowola in relations to the gmina boundaries - are these boundaries being shown the boundaries for the formal auxillary unit or just a statistical visualization of the extent of the town? More simply put, are we seeing the auxillary unit of Suchowola town within Gmina Suchowola? --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Can someone answer this? --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:57, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Title not English
Why is the title not given in English, e.g. Municipalities of Poland? 78.54.39.147 (talk) 11:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * So, thanks to user:TerraCyprus in agreement with above discussion and thus the will of the majority and in agreement with sources it was English for a short time. But user:No such user reverted the move and on top edited the article with the absolutely inappropriate summary "Rv controversial move per WP:BRD" to a non-English form, removing helpful external link and restoring nonsensical mixed use of gminas/gminy. It was absolutely inappropriate since the edit didn't "Rv controversial move per WP:BRD". 77.191.251.111 (talk) 06:51, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Page title
I reverted your move of the article whose nomenclature affects thousands of other categories and articles. This should have been discussed via WP:RM, with participants of WP:POLAND properly notified.

I'm not against this move on the merits (in fact, I slightly favor the move), but you cannot just assert it's "uncontroversial" based on single source. And, you should really know better. No such user (talk) 20:57, 6 December 2020 (UTC)


 * User:No such user, maybe you should know better. Read WP:BRD and WP:POINT and the above discussions. And review your assertion "affects thousands of other categories and articles". 77.191.251.111 (talk) 06:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)


 * WP:BRD states that when your Bold edit (move) is Reverted (by me), you should Discuss (which I started for you). WP:Requested moves is thataway, for a broader input. Category:Gminas of Poland has some 20 subcategories, containing some 2,000 articles, all starting with "Gmina". No such user (talk) 09:16, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * User:No such user maybe had a problem to find the R of BRD, so here is some of the R-part: "Revert an edit if it is not an improvement, and it cannot be immediately fixed by refinement. Consider reverting only when necessary. BRD does not encourage reverting, but recognizes that reversions happen. When reverting, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary and use links if needed. Look at the article's history and its talk page to see if a discussion has begun. If not, [... does not apply, since it has begun]" . Talk clearly shows discussion has begun, three times, and User:No such user didn't take part in any but reverted an edit to the page against majority opinion, which is clearly opposed to gmina/gminas/gminy mixed into an otherwise English-language article. 77.191.251.111 (talk) 17:11, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Removal of cn-tags
A user removed cn-tags. I restored them, since the claims in question have no citations. 77.191.251.111 (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:TAGBOMB: Tag bombing is a form of disruptive editing. Editors who engage in tag bombing after being asked to stop may be blocked from editing Wikipedia ... There is no need to add tags to numerous unreferenced statements in an article when unreferenced or refimprove would state equivalent information. Do you seriously contest the statements that gminas are the basic administrative units and that they make up powiats? Besides, the whole article appears to be sourced from "Official report from the Central Statistical Office of Poland dated January 1, 2006, (pages 49–151, in Polish)", duly placed in the References section. Really, I don't see a reason for such battleground attitude of yours. This site operates on consensus and discussion, and there is no pressing need to move this article and thousands of others to achieve consistency with other countries that bothered no-one so far. This particular article sits at this title since 2004. No such user (talk) 07:59, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 7 December 2020

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, support and opposition for this proposal are about even, and therefore there is nowhere near a consensus either way. While consistency is a valid objective, it has been noted that the current title is not factually incorrect, and there are also substantial valid concerns about the large number of articles that would be affected by this. BD2412 T 05:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Gmina → Municipalities of Poland – 1 WP:UE 1.1 https://portal.cor.europa.eu/divisionpowers/Pages/Poland.aspx 1.2 majority of users discussing the term "gmina" at Talk:Gmina considers it not to be English-language. 2 standard form is to user of, see Municipalities of Sweden, Regions of France, Counties of Norway, Communes of France 77.191.251.111 (talk) 18:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. TheTVExpert (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Though the request has not been currently contested but the comments of on the talk page concerning this move are valid and RM is what is the best option. ─  The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:31, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Support and implement the consensus. Revert the move by "No such user" performed against consensus. TerraCyprus (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Consensus of one, achieved by a sneaky request at WP:RM/TR? Don't be preposterous. No such user (talk) 11:43, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, I see no evidence that "gmina" is a fundamentally different concept than "municipality" so then we can just use English-language terminology. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:43, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment This move might potentially affect the whole tree of Category:Gminas of Poland with some 20 subcategories, containing some 2,000 articles, all starting with "Gmina". No such user (talk) 11:43, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Support move. "Gmina" is not an English word and the made-up plural "gminas" looks like something out of Lord of the Rings. — Kpalion(talk) 11:58, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now (also if moved, keep gmina in the article as the Polish term/translation). I concur that some sources for example, or, translate gmina as municipality (but the first one also continues to use the term through the article). Note also that some sources translate gmina as commune instead: https://rcin.org.pl/igipz/dlibra/publication/80954?tab=1&language=en], , , . Some sources don't translate it: : "The lowest level of administrative division comprises unit called gmina ; there are almost 2,500 gminas in Poland". Likewise, term gmina is widely used in English works like  too . I would like to see more sources that conclude municipality is the correct translation / usage first, what I am seeing is no consensus in literature on the correct translation, with plenty of uses of gmina in English. Crucially, even if we go with WP:USEENGLISH, there is IMHO zero argument that Municipalities of Poland would be better than Communes of Poland would be. Given the ambiguity in sources on whether commune or municipality is a better translation, and the widespread use of gmina in sources, I suggest leaving this term under the current Polish  name. Ping participants so they can comment on my argument, since I don't see anyone else doing much research: User:Kpalion, User:No such user, User:Marcocapelle,  User:TerraCyprus, User:TheAafi. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  02:05, 12 December 2020 (UTC) PS. Repeat ping as I think the previous one didn't work due to lack of timestamp: User:Kpalion, User:No such user, User:Marcocapelle,  User:TerraCyprus, User:TheAafi. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  02:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * neither of the two pings worked for me, I just returned here by accident. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:36, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as I am aware of, commune is seldom used as a term for an administrative division. That would exclude it as a proper translation of gmina. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:41, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it's very rare: Commune_(disambiguation). — Kpalion(talk) 08:43, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * which WP rule allows for not adhering to WP:UE on the ground that two articles titles compliant with WP:UE are possible? TerraCyprus (talk) 16:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I see no problem whatsoever with this article. If it ain't broke don't fix it. "Not an English word" is not a reason to rename. Lots of article titles on Wikipedia are not English words and shouldn't be. Slightly amused that Communes of France was used as an example of why we should rename: "Commune" is a French term that is not used to mean a municipality in English! So how is this any more an English word than gmina is? -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:UE exists independently of you seeing "no problem whatsoever with this article". You may update your English-language knowledge by reading https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/commune and https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commune - good luck! TerraCyprus (talk) 16:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You may update your English as well. Dictionaries are vast, slow-moving beasts that cover fantastically huge areas, rather like Wikipedia. The problem with 'commune' for Poland is that, unlike France, it was a COMMUNist country and it has its own vocabulary. The only relevant argument should be between 'gmina' and 'municipality'. Lublin Trev (talk) 07:20, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Support move. In this case, we should use the English word.  O.N.R.  (talk) 19:04, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose as not broken. I was on the fence about it, but ultimately I don't think it brings a demonstrable improvement. Yes, some sources translate it, some don't, but fundamentally, this is a Polish term for Poland-specific type of division. And it holds a category tree and a naming scheme for thousands of articles. I don't see a pressing reason to violate the current consistency. No such user (talk) 14:48, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Violating WP:UE certainly qualifies the title as broken. TerraCyprus (talk) 16:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now. I agree with User:Necrothesp - not the only non-English term in use here on enwiki. WP:UE is nice but it doesn't mandate 100% compliance in renaming absolutely everything to English. If however, the future will bring a prevalent use of "municipality" in reliable English-language sources, then I will be the first one to vote in favor of a move. For now, we should rather focus on cleaning up the mess around Polish villages articles, which were created en masse more than 10 years ago by a bot without any further human verification.--Darwinek (talk) 01:04, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * your desire to focus on other things isn't a valid reason to circumvent WP:UE. English-language Google is full of evidence for using the term municipality with respect to the municipalities of Poland, see https://www.google.com/search?q=municipalities+of+poland, https://www.google.com/search?q=municipalities+site%3Apl . Would you claim that https://portal.cor.europa.eu/divisionpowers/Pages/Poland.aspx and https://stat.gov.pl/en/metainformations/glossary/terms-used-in-official-statistics/2607,term.html are not reliable sources? TerraCyprus (talk) 16:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment, AFAICT there are only two articles about a country-specific class of municipalities that don't have an article title in the form "Municipalities of ..." or "Communes of ...", namely Gmina (Poland) and Comune (Italy). See some of the Municipalities of ... articles in the following list:
 * Very interesting, but 20-25% of those are redirects away from Municipalities of... Ex. Municipalities of Ukraine->Amalgamated hromada (now this is something you'd expect could bite you in a dark alley on an alien planet, eh?). If you didn't notice, I recommend enabling the option/script that colors redirects in green. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:10, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * so you found a third exception, "Amalgamated hromada", which is currently under discussion. Anything else? Redirects like Municipalities of the Dominican Republic to List of municipalities of the Dominican Republic are not a proof that WP:ENGLISH is not applied. TerraCyprus (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * List of islands of the Marshall Islands, Administrative divisions of Latvia, Administrative divisions of Cape Verde, List of cities and towns in Bangladesh . Some of them, like CV, use different terms in the article too. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose, for now. There is no urgency in switching from "gmina" to another term.
 * If an alternative to "gmina" were required, I would probably vote for "commune", as part of the rising series – "commune, county, province".
 * "Municipality" is a clunky, 6-syllable word. Either "gmina" or "commune" saves us 4 syllables, which over a lifetime adds up.
 * Nihil novi (talk) 08:18, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * relevant is WP:AT, the term "syllable" is not present in that WP:POLICY. TerraCyprus (talk) 21:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose commune, this is an ambiguous translation (see Commune) while it is entirely unnecessary to be ambiguous. Municipality is the unambiguous English translation. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:30, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:31, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.